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Old 2004-11-01, 14:49   Link #81
dreamless
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well, I think the message about war in GW is more like "right on one's face" kind of message, all those talks from Relena, Treize and Zechs, and the whole ending. IMO GW is practically trying to push its ideas right into one's throat, nothing subtle or underlying about it @_@

About the possible message in SEED about nuclear power, I think it's more like that power is neither good nor evil, it really depends on the people who use it. a great power can do great evil and great good. It shows that nuclear power can be used as nuclear bombs to kill many people, but it can also be used to build Earth into prosperity and for space exploration, and used in Freedom and Justice to stop war and save people. It just depends on whether it's someone like Azrael who gets the power or someone like Lacus who get the power.
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Old 2004-11-01, 15:10   Link #82
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Originally Posted by dreamless
well, I think the message about war in GW is more like "right on one's face" kind of message, all those talks from Relena, Treize and Zechs, and the whole ending. IMO GW is practically trying to push its ideas right into one's throat, nothing subtle or underlying about it @_@

About the possible message in SEED about nuclear power, I think it's more like that power is neither good nor evil, it really depends on the people who use it. a great power can do great evil and great good. It shows that nuclear power can be used as nuclear bombs to kill many people, but it can also be used to build Earth into prosperity and for space exploration, and used in Freedom and Justice to stop war and save people. It just depends on whether it's someone like Azrael who gets the power or someone like Lacus who get the power.
It's true, nuclear power can be used to protect, in the case of Freedom/Justice, but they wouldn't need to exist without that 'power' that can immorally kill people. Watching SEED and how the main characters react, I think that Kira believes that any weapon that hurts someone doesn't deserve to exist, you can tell from how he talks in 'Between the Stars', but he has no choice to become a weapon, just to protect people.
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Old 2004-11-01, 15:35   Link #83
dreamless
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well, maybe weapons don't need to exist, but that doesn't mean nuclear power plants and nuclear powered space exploration ships don't need to exist. Do you think that since cannons and guns don't exist to exist, that gunpowers and explosives for excavation and industrial purposes don't need to exist? Or since computers can be used for military use, so computers as a whole shouldn't exist? Or people should stop using electrical power since it powers many military equipment?

Last edited by dreamless; 2004-11-01 at 16:32.
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Old 2004-11-01, 15:46   Link #84
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Originally Posted by dreamless
well, maybe weapons don't need to exist, but that doesn't mean nuclear power plants and nuclear powered space exploration ships don't need to exist. Do you think that since cannons and guns don't exist to exist, that gunpowers and explosives for excavation and industrial purposes don't need to exist? Or since computers can be used for military use, so computers as a whoe shouldn't exist? Or people should stop using electrical power since it powers many military equipment?


I think that weapons should only exist to protect. If there's weapons that are made to attack and not protect, then they shouldn't exist.
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Old 2004-11-01, 16:38   Link #85
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Hmm... I'm not sure what do you mean here. you said that there's no need for Freedom and Justice to exist if there's no power that can immorally kill people, but then you think weapons should only exist to protect. What's the point of weapons to protect if there's no other power that can hurt people? Only when something try to hurt people, one needs the power to protect right? Also Freedom and Justice are weapons to protect when used by Kira and Athrun. There are no weapons that made only to attack or made only to protect, any weapon can be used to attack or used to protect. If one wants to hurt people, even a fruit knife or wooden stick can be used to hurt or kill people.

Besides, I'm still not very sure what your point really is? What's your view on gunpowder, explosives, electricity and nuclear power?
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Old 2004-11-01, 18:15   Link #86
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Originally Posted by dreamless
Hmm... I'm not sure what do you mean here. you said that there's no need for Freedom and Justice to exist if there's no power that can immorally kill people, but then you think weapons should only exist to protect. What's the point of weapons to protect if there's no other power that can hurt people? Only when something try to hurt people, one needs the power to protect right? Also Freedom and Justice are weapons to protect when used by Kira and Athrun. There are no weapons that made only to attack or made only to protect, any weapon can be used to attack or used to protect. If one wants to hurt people, even a fruit knife or wooden stick can be used to hurt or kill people.

Besides, I'm still not very sure what your point really is? What's your view on gunpowder, explosives, electricity and nuclear power?
I DID say that I did not think Freedom/Justice should exist, unless they were to protect against other weapons being used to hurt people. I wasn't trying to make a point about nuclear technology and the like by commenting about Kira's state of mind.

Yes, practically -anything- can hurt people, even things that were designed not to. That doesn't change anything, however..

On the subject of nuclear technology and GS: D, I believe they might try to do something more with it than just use it as a 'power' to further the plot, I think I already said this, but decided to say it again just in case you were confused.

My view on gunpowder, explosives, electricity and nuclear power are pretty easy to see when I talk about weapons, as they can all be used as one. Sure, they may have other uses, but does that use make up for all of the pain they might(will) cause? I don't think so.
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Old 2004-11-02, 04:13   Link #87
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well, they have caused many pain and suffering, but they also have brought (will bring?) happiness and prosperity. Anyway I don't think SEED has any pro-nuclear or anti-nuclear message, nor do I think SEED try to say that people should throw away all technological advances which can potentially bring harm to the world and go back to stone age or something like that.

Hmm... I still don't understand your idea about this. yes I understand your idea about weapons (including nuclear weapons and other kinds of weapons in general), I understand that you don't think the nuclear power in SEED is just a plot device, and you think there are some underlying messages in SEED about nuclear power, and you don't think the message about nuclear power is just that it's a great power that can do great evil (ie. nuclear weapons) and great good (ie. world wide energy supply and space exploration). I understand that you have said what you do not think the message is, but you haven't said anything about what you do think the message is. So, the question here becomes, what do you think the message about nuclear power in SEED is? (not just about nuclear weapon)
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Old 2004-11-02, 09:20   Link #88
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Originally Posted by dreamless
well, they have caused many pain and suffering, but they also have brought (will bring?) happiness and prosperity. Anyway I don't think SEED has any pro-nuclear or anti-nuclear message, nor do I think SEED try to say that people should throw away all technological advances which can potentially bring harm to the world and go back to stone age or something like that.

Hmm... I still don't understand your idea about this. yes I understand your idea about weapons (including nuclear weapons and other kinds of weapons in general), I understand that you don't think the nuclear power in SEED is just a plot device, and you think there are some underlying messages in SEED about nuclear power, and you don't think the message about nuclear power is just that it's a great power that can do great evil (ie. nuclear weapons) and great good (ie. world wide energy supply and space exploration). I understand that you have said what you do not think the message is, but you haven't said anything about what you do think the message is. So, the question here becomes, what do you think the message about nuclear power in SEED is? (not just about nuclear weapon)
And I say to you: Wait and see!

SEED still isn't over, in my eyes. I have some ideas about just WHAT their message is/could be, but it's not entirely formed, as GS: D is still going.

I seem to have answered every question of yours but that one.

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Old 2004-11-02, 09:28   Link #89
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Originally Posted by Derelict
And I say to you: Wait and see!

SEED still isn't over, in my eyes. I have some ideas about just WHAT their message is/could be, but it's not entirely formed, as GS: D is still going.

I seem to have answered every question of yours but that one.

Hmm... so you have some ideas, but they are not formed... not formed in the series or not formed by you? If they are not formed in the series yet, then couldn't you at least tell me roughly what your ideas are? If they are formed by you yet... then I don't quite understand how you can have some ideas that are not formed by you yet...
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Old 2004-11-02, 10:26   Link #90
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Originally Posted by dreamless
Hmm... so you have some ideas, but they are not formed... not formed in the series or not formed by you? If they are not formed in the series yet, then couldn't you at least tell me roughly what your ideas are? If they are formed by you yet... then I don't quite understand how you can have some ideas that are not formed by you yet...
What I meant was:

My ideas have not formed yet because they depend on what happens later in GS: D, how nuclear weapons will be used in the series, how people treat nuclear technology in general.

GS: D is a big continuation of SEED, I can't really draw accurate conclusions without seeing how nuclear technology is treated, especially after the war that was sparked by it.
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Old 2004-11-02, 10:49   Link #91
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well... I kinda wonder if they will bring up the issue about nuclear energy in Destiny... it seems the new long range energy transfer system is the new spotlight here... although we don't know what powers the battleship itself (I have seen some articles saying that they are using some kind of nuclear fusion reactors, but I can't track down the source). For nuclear power on Earth, it's just that they ban the use of NJC in military and then use NJC technology in the nuclear power plants to get them back working.

The war is not sparked by nuclear power technology, it's sparked by a nuclear bomb attack. It's not like that if they don't use nuclear bomb, they don't have any other means of destroying Junius 7 or start the war. There is the war because of the intense tension building up between PLANT and EA, not because of nuclear technology. WW1 was sparked by the assassination of Archduke Francis Ferdinand, but no one blames gunpowder or pistol for starting WW1
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Old 2004-11-02, 11:00   Link #92
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Originally Posted by dreamless
well... I kinda wonder if they will bring up the issue about nuclear energy in Destiny... it seems the new long range energy transfer system is the new spotlight here... although we don't know what powers the battleship itself (I have seen some articles saying that they are using some kind of nuclear fusion reactors, but I can't track down the source). For nuclear power on Earth, it's just that they ban the use of NJC in military and then use NJC technology in the nuclear power plants to get them back working.

The war is not sparked by nuclear power technology, it's sparked by a nuclear bomb attack. It's not like that if they don't use nuclear bomb, they don't have any other means of destroying Junius 7 or start the war. There is the war because of the intense tension building up between PLANT and EA, not because of nuclear technology. WW1 was sparked by the assassination of Archduke Francis Ferdinand, but no one blames gunpowder or pistol for starting WW1
I didn't say anything about tension. Sure, there was longstanding envy that 'naturals' had for 'coordinators', the spark I was talking about was 'The Valentine of Blood.'.
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Old 2004-11-02, 11:16   Link #93
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the cause of the war is mainly because of the argument about the quota of resource PLANT is forced to send to EA, and the longstanding envy and racism and things. Anyway the Bloody Valentine started the war, but it's NOT the cause of the war. Actually it's the tension built up by disagreement in resource quota and racism that caused the Bloody Valentine, not the other way around. For WW1, it's the tension between the countries and the imperialism and militarism that caused the assassionation which leads to all out war. For SEED, it's the tension and racism and small skirmishes and quarrels between PLANT and EA that caused the Bloody Valentine which leads to all out war.

Bloody Valentine is not the cause, nuclear technology is not the cause, actually Rau said it very clearly, war is the clash of people's desires, the cause of war is always about clash of benefits, ambitions, ideals, believes, races. If a nuclear bomb was not used, a strong beam cannon, a positron blast cannon, a big explosive planted on the central axis of the satellite, some inside sabotage, maybe even an anti-matter bomb, etc. etc. would be used to start the war, as long as the tension reaches a "break point".
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Old 2004-11-02, 11:23   Link #94
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Originally Posted by dreamless
the cause of the war is mainly because of the argument about the quota of resource PLANT is forced to send to EA, and the longstanding envy and racism and things. Anyway the Bloody Valentine started the war, but it's NOT the cause of the war. Actually it's the tension built up by disagreement in resource quota and racism that caused the Bloody Valentine, not the other way around. For WW1, it's the tension between the countries and the imperialism and militarism that caused the assassionation which leads to all out war. For SEED, it's the tension and racism and small skirmishes and quarrels between PLANT and EA that caused the Bloody Valentine which leads to all out war.

Bloody Valentine is not the cause, nuclear technology is not the cause, actually Rau said it very clearly, war is the clash of people's desires, the cause of war is always about clash of benefits, ambitions, ideals, believes, races. If a nuclear bomb was not used, a strong beam cannon, a positron blast cannon, a big explosive planted on the central axis of the satellite, some inside sabotage, maybe even an anti-matter bomb, etc. etc. would be used to start the war, as long as the tension reaches a "break point".
Then what is your point?

Are you contesting that 'The Valentine of Blood' started the war? It was repeated time after time by ZAFT that it was what caused them to resort to major military action and the destruction of Heliopolis.

Have some kind of vendetta with actually having a clear point in time where small military action has been driven into major military action and all out war?
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Old 2004-11-02, 11:27   Link #95
dreamless
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my point is, the cause of the war has nothing to do with nuclear technology, just like the cause of WW1 has nothing to do with gunpowder.

Also Bloody Valentine did not start the war, EA formally declared war on PLANT three days before Bloody Valentine.
http://www.gundamofficial.com/worlds...loodyvalentine
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Old 2004-11-02, 15:58   Link #96
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Originally Posted by dreamless
my point is, the cause of the war has nothing to do with nuclear technology, just like the cause of WW1 has nothing to do with gunpowder.

Also Bloody Valentine did not start the war, EA formally declared war on PLANT three days before Bloody Valentine.
http://www.gundamofficial.com/worlds...loodyvalentine
Maybe not the 'official' beginning of the war, but the beginning in many of the young coordinators' minds. I'd say that the nuclear technology used to cause 'The Valentine of Blood' was one of the biggest reasons why the 'war' took shape into a massive struggle.

Pounding the same concept onto our keyboards probably won't do much good at this point.
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Old 2004-11-02, 21:28   Link #97
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Originally Posted by Derelict
Maybe not the 'official' beginning of the war, but the beginning in many of the young coordinators' minds. I'd say that the nuclear technology used to cause 'The Valentine of Blood' was one of the biggest reasons why the 'war' took shape into a massive struggle.

Pounding the same concept onto our keyboards probably won't do much good at this point.
Actually, the "beginning of the conflict" in Coordinators' mind is the discovery of Evidence One, which led to the construction of the PLANT's. They recite Bloody Valentine as a cruelty that Naturals did on the Coordinators, but they really don't call it the cause of the war (more like a "trigger" which is the term they used).
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Old 2004-11-02, 23:06   Link #98
dreamless
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I'd say that the nuclear technology used to cause 'The Valentine of Blood' was one of the biggest reasons why the 'war' took shape into a massive struggle.
the reason is not the use of nuclear technology, but the massacre of over 240K people. It has nothing to do with nuclear technology, they can use other technologies to massacre the 240K people and people will still be mad at them. In WW2 people got massacred without nuclear technology, and we are mad at those people who have committed the atrocity, not the technologies they have used to do the massacre.
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Old 2004-11-02, 23:48   Link #99
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Originally Posted by brightman
Actually, the "beginning of the conflict" in Coordinators' mind is the discovery of Evidence One, which led to the construction of the PLANT's. They recite Bloody Valentine as a cruelty that Naturals did on the Coordinators, but they really don't call it the cause of the war (more like a "trigger" which is the term they used).
Let's go ahead and say it was the 'trigger' then, since I did say that 'Valentine of Blood' was a 'big' part of the cause of them going to war and such is the term 'trigger'.

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Originally Posted by dreamless
the reason is not the use of nuclear technology, but the massacre of over 240K people. It has nothing to do with nuclear technology, they can use other technologies to massacre the 240K people and people will still be mad at them. In WW2 people got massacred without nuclear technology, and we are mad at those people who have committed the atrocity, not the technologies they have used to do the massacre.
Regardless, nuclear is the technology being used in SEED. Coordinators and Naturals alike have been quite troubled whenever talking about it.
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Old 2004-11-02, 23:59   Link #100
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Coordinators and Naturals are quite troubled with nuclear weapons, not technology... actually they are quite eager to restore the nuclear power plants... It's like we could be quite troubled when talking about laser technology used in weapons, but not troubled at all with laser technology in medical equipment.

"trigger" and "cause" are different concepts. something triggered a war may be completely unrelated to the true reason behind the war. US accusing Iraq possessing WoMD triggered the war between US and Iraq, but the real cause is different.

And actually it's the war which caused the Bloody Valentine, not the other way around. It's because they started the war, that EA decided to use nuclear weapons.
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