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Old 2004-11-29, 13:24   Link #1
Mr_Paper
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Justice [GSeed] = Super Gundam [Zeta]?

Okay, I spent several good long minutes browsing back through all 10 pages of threads in this forums and after a number of unsuccessful search queries, I'm unable to locate the thread I was thinking of. So, I shall start this one and if anyone can remember a similar thread, please point it out.

There has been something bothering me pretty much since the Justice Gundam was introduced in Gundam Seed. Mainly, I know I've seen that mobile suit somewhere before. For the life of me however, I wasn't quite able to put a face or model number to it until now. After casually rewatching a couple episodes of Zeta Gundam it struck me. The Justice Gundam is a ripoff or clone of sorts of the Super Gundam.

For those who don't know, the Super Gundam is formed by combining the RX-178 Gundam Mark II with the FXA-05D G-Defenser. Together the fighter and the Gundam become the Super Gundam to which the Justice Gundam bares and uncanny and entirely unnatural resemblence to. Swap the long range rifle with a laser pistol, lose the large missle pods on the sides and the two suits might just be the same.

Now, if this has been pointed out before, ignore it and go on with your day. On the other hand, if it's just me, sleep deprived and hungry, that sees this resemblence, feel free to let me know. On that note, I finish saying that I'd swear there's a suit nearly indenticle to the Freedom Gundam too...
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Old 2004-11-29, 13:38   Link #2
Komataguri
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They don't look anything alike..
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Old 2004-11-29, 13:51   Link #3
Blaat
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Actually they have similarities its just harder to notice them because of the different painting scheme.
Furthermore its really the small things that connect the both suits.
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Old 2004-11-29, 13:57   Link #4
Silver_Scorcher
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Yeah, put aside the colour scheme and they do look alike. However Justice has its own unique characteristics, the main one being the flight pack which can be used as a separate unit and a surf board of sorts (Sorry I don't know the real term for that but it's the best I can come up with at the moment ). As for Freedom... Well I'm sure it just screams a whole lot rips.
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Old 2004-11-29, 13:57   Link #5
Komataguri
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blaat
Actually they have similarities its just harder to notice them because of the different painting scheme.
Furthermore its really the small things that connect the both suits.
Like what?

Their piloted?

They are involved in a war?

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Old 2004-11-29, 15:09   Link #6
Mr_Paper
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver_Scorcher
Yeah, put aside the colour scheme and they do look alike. However Justice has its own unique characteristics, the main one being the flight pack which can be used as a separate unit and a surf board of sorts (Sorry I don't know the real term for that but it's the best I can come up with at the moment ). As for Freedom... Well I'm sure it just screams a whole lot rips.
While the Justice does have a bit more of a unique styling, the backpack/fighter unit is actually very much the same between the two.

On the Super Gundam the the backpack/fighter can detach and be operated via remote control as a mobile armor/fighter by the Gundam pilot. Likewise, the Justice's backpack/sublift unit can also be detached and operated via remote control by the pilot. However, neither of the two backpack unit can function as surfboard like units, you're thinking of something else. You're most likely thinking of the Seed equivilant to the Dodai Kai units.
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Old 2004-11-29, 17:15   Link #7
Silver_Scorcher
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Not so much a surfboard, but a platform of sorts. Sort of like the Guul in SEED, which the Gundam squad used in their assaults on the Archangel when they were on Earth. That's shortsightedness on my part for not looking up the proper term on MAHQ until now.
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Old 2004-11-29, 17:53   Link #8
Halie
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acualy the first time I saw Freedom I thought OMG they copied the double X.
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Old 2004-11-29, 17:57   Link #9
Silver_Scorcher
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Halie
acualy the first time I saw Freedom I thought OMG they copied the double X.
As well as the Wing Gundam, and Wing Zero.
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Old 2004-11-29, 18:50   Link #10
method
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I would say that Justice is closer to Gengaozo from Victory Gundam.

from MAHQ.net
Quote:
One of the few BESPA mobile weapons to be built especially for use by Newtypes, the ZMT-S28S Gengaozo was equipped with the venerable "psycommu" (short for PSYchic COMMUnicator) system used in Newtype weapons since the One Year War. In the Gengaozo's case, its psycommu system allowed the pilot to remote-control the mobile suit's Back Engine Unit, which was a combination sub-flight system and remote weapon. The Back Engine Unit mounted five fire-linked multiple beam launcher weapons. These weapons could be used as the Gengaozo's primary armament while it was mounted on the mobile suit, or while being operated via remote control, be used for sneak attacks or diversionary raids. In the case of loss of the Back Engine Unit, or its not having been retrieved yet, the Gengaozo mobile suit was armed with fairly standard weapons for itself: a beam rifle, two beam shields, and a pair of beam sabers which also doubled as beam maces. Only one Gengaozo test unit is known to have existed; it was piloted by the highly skilled (yet psychologically unstable) Newtype ace pilot Fuala Griffon.
It doesn't really resemble it, but the function of the backpack weapon system is similar.
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Old 2004-11-29, 19:02   Link #11
Scherazade
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver_Scorcher
As well as the Wing Gundam, and Wing Zero.
How exactly? Dreadnought Gundam looks more like Wing than Freedom.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Halie
acualy the first time I saw Freedom I thought OMG they copied the double X.
I've heard this one, but I don't much buy into it. Superficially, sure, sort of. The wings function very differently though. DX's wings are for collecting energy for the DSC. Freedom's wings are presumably for flight, they also don't glow like DX's. DX only has 6 wings where Freedom has 10.

As for Justice and Super Gundam....I don't see it. In design, the back units have a vaguely similar purpose. However, the G-Defensor was designed so that Mk. II could hold up against the swarm of advanced suits that the Titans were throwing out. The Fatum-00 sub-flight lifter [which is based on the Guul sub-flight lifter] was designed to allow Justice to fly in atmosphere. Both units add a bit of weaponry to their respective suits, but I would assume that's natural to avoid the pack being dead weight. It also bears noting that Justice was designed with the Fatum pack already integrated. G-Defensor was a stop-gap made well after the original design was made to keep it a bit further from obsolecense.

When it comes to copying designs, it really becomes a moot issue. After 25 years, how "original" can anything in Gundam truly be? There is constant repetition of theme, character, and mechanics.

Most often when people complain about "copying" or "ripping off" it is not only superficial, but not comprehensive. Such as the DX/Freedom comparison. The only thing I see is the wings and they aren't that much alike. It's usually one element that two designs have in common and the design that was made second is considered a rip-off. It's fairly short sighted to miss the unique characteristics that distinguish one suit from another in order to harp on the similarities that a suit might share with another suit.
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Old 2004-11-29, 21:13   Link #12
brightman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scherazade
When it comes to copying designs, it really becomes a moot issue. After 25 years, how "original" can anything in Gundam truly be? There is constant repetition of theme, character, and mechanics.
Well, it definitely can still be original, as Turn A Gundam demonstrates... But of course, once to get as absurdity strange as the designs in that show, it makes you wonder what *exactly* IS Gundam?

That's why SEED is being more conservative when it comes to designs... Because its extremely hard to create something that is *original* and screams *Gundam* out to you at the same time.
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Old 2004-11-29, 21:15   Link #13
Komataguri
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It is true that originally can begin to stagnate.

I mean, seriously, How many variations can you make on a single concept before ideas begin to blur together?

However, The Strike Gundam IWSP is indeed a most blatent ripoff.

http://www.mahq.net/mecha/gundam/see...105+p202qx.htm
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Old 2004-11-29, 21:26   Link #14
Scherazade
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Komataguri
However, The Strike Gundam IWSP is indeed a most blatent ripoff.

http://www.mahq.net/mecha/gundam/see...105+p202qx.htm
Of what? Or are you joking and it's gone over my head?
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Old 2004-11-29, 22:15   Link #15
Komataguri
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scherazade
Of what? Or are you joking and it's gone over my head?

Thought it was obvious, but Gundam Double X
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Old 2004-11-29, 22:34   Link #16
Scherazade
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Komataguri
Thought it was obvious, but Gundam Double X
.....how is it ripoff?
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Old 2004-11-29, 22:43   Link #17
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The Strike IWSP doesn't look very much like it at all.

But really, Freedom is a re-hash of the Double X - although a very good one, no complains from me.

Look at the torso, legs and shoulders. Even the beam rifle is very similar. The satellite cannon wings and the satellite cannons were turned into Freedom's nifty wing binder and cannnon system.

And it's decently hard to be "original" after 25 years but Freedom is the Double X, but there's nothing wrong there since both designs rock

I can't see how people connect it to Wing Gundam or Wing Zero though... Is it because of the legs? If so, then F91 had legs similar to that design before.

Dreadnought looks a wee bit like Wing Zero, but that's nothing bad either since Dreadnought looks bloody amazing, but not as amazing as the cutest lil' Gundam in all of CE - Hyperion
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Old 2004-11-29, 23:25   Link #18
Scherazade
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Quote:
Originally Posted by srb
The Strike IWSP doesn't look very much like it at all.

But really, Freedom is a re-hash of the Double X - although a very good one, no complains from me.
I disagree, so I'll take the components as you mention them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by srb
Look at the torso
Looking at the torso, the only similarity is the cockpit area and that's in very general form. Look and the vents, and the abdominal region. Very much different. The vents for Freedom are sunk into the chest, the vents on DX are thrust out. Freedom lacks the launchers underneath the vents that DX has which changes the lines of the lower torso between the two designs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by srb
, legs
The legs don't have the slightest resemblance. You'll have to explain to me where you see the similarities there. Freedom's legs are angular, DX's legs are rounded. DX has short, stubby feet whereas Freedom has long narrow feet. I again emphasize that DX is rounde and Freedom is angular.

Quote:
Originally Posted by srb
and shoulders.
Are we looking at the same designs? The shoulders look nothing alike. DX's shoulders are hollow with sattelite cannon targeting sensors inbetween the armor plates. Freedom's shoulders are solid and have vernier jets in them. Not to mention that the shape is completely different.

Quote:
Originally Posted by srb
Even the beam rifle is very similar.
Again, it's a comparison between an angular design and a round design. They don't look much alike. DX's has a top handle towards the rear and a rectangular target sensor. Freedom's rifle has no handle and a round target sensor and a swinging handgrip. DX's rifle is also longer than Freedom's.

Quote:
Originally Posted by srb
The satellite cannon wings and the satellite cannons were turned into Freedom's nifty wing binder and cannnon system.
Six wings versus ten wings, but I see your point. Cannons also have a different style of deployment, but again I see your point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by srb
Dreadnought looks a wee bit like Wing Zero, but that's nothing bad either since Dreadnought looks bloody amazing, but not as amazing as the cutest lil' Gundam in all of CE - Hyperion
Dreadnought, doesn't look terribly like Wing, but moreso than Freedom and that's what I was getting at. Mainly in the shoulders and the top of the chest/torso area. It's not a terribly strong resemblance and it's mainly due to color placement.

Keep in mind that I'm not attacking you or your opinion, I'm just responding to what you said with my opinion and my reasons for disagreeing with your points. Nothing personal intended.
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Old 2004-11-29, 23:56   Link #19
srb
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Thumbs up

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scherazade
Looking at the torso, the only similarity is the cockpit area and that's in very general form. Look and the vents, and the abdominal region. Very much different. The vents for Freedom are sunk into the chest, the vents on DX are thrust out. Freedom lacks the launchers underneath the vents that DX has which changes the lines of the lower torso between the two designs.
Double X page on MAHQ and Freedom page on MAHQ for easier lineart comparison.

It may just be me but I see little to no difference between the vents of Freedom and Double X. I don't see the "sunk in, thrust out" difference that you're emphasizing. Freedom does lack the launchers, but it also has, in the exact same position, the chest vulcans. Freedom does have a slightly longer torso though, as evidenced by the longer blue segment and Freedom is also a good meter taller than the Double X. From where I'm looking the launchers have absolutely nothing to do with the lines of the lower torso. Heck, it should really look the exact same as Freedom's (longer) so that more ammunition could be stored

My main point is that the differences that you point just aren't there from my point if view, so please explain how you see them.

Quote:
The legs don't have the slightest resemblance. You'll have to explain to me where you see the similarities there. Freedom's legs are angular, DX's legs are rounded. DX has short, stubby feet whereas Freedom has long narrow feet. I again emphasize that DX is rounde and Freedom is angular
My mistake, I must have thought of something else, possibly Impulse's legs and F91/DX.

Quote:
Are we looking at the same designs? The shoulders look nothing alike. DX's shoulders are hollow with sattelite cannon targeting sensors inbetween the armor plates. Freedom's shoulders are solid and have vernier jets in them. Not to mention that the shape is completely different.
It's different, but the main point is that they're both very big. If one stretches it a bit you can see a similarity but Freedom's lines are more pronounced with the lower part of the shoulders.

Quote:
Again, it's a comparison between an angular design and a round design. They don't look much alike. DX's has a top handle towards the rear and a rectangular target sensor. Freedom's rifle has no handle and a round target sensor and a swinging handgrip. DX's rifle is also longer than Freedom's.
Don't know about that, I do see a similarity. I never said they were exact copies, my point was that they are similar even if there are design differences. Both of them look different from a traditional beam rifle but similar to each other. And now I thought of something and checked it out, and indeed, both of them stem from the F91 beam rifle. That little bugger sure is everywhere

Quote:
Six wings versus ten wings, but I see your point. Cannons also have a different style of deployment, but again I see your point.
So nothing to say here.

Quote:
Dreadnought, doesn't look terribly like Wing, but moreso than Freedom and that's what I was getting at. Mainly in the shoulders and the top of the chest/torso area. It's not a terribly strong resemblance and it's mainly due to color placement.
I did say "wee bit", didn't I?

Quote:
Keep in mind that I'm not attacking you or your opinion, I'm just responding to what you said with my opinion and my reasons for disagreeing with your points. Nothing personal intended.
Likewise.
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Old 2004-11-30, 00:04   Link #20
BigFire
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver_Scorcher
Yeah, put aside the colour scheme and they do look alike. However Justice has its own unique characteristics, the main one being the flight pack which can be used as a separate unit and a surf board of sorts (Sorry I don't know the real term for that but it's the best I can come up with at the moment ). As for Freedom... Well I'm sure it just screams a whole lot rips.
The Universal Century term for the 'surfboard' is subflight system. subflight system is used to extend the operational range of mobile suit in both space and under gravity (though atmosphere subflight system is usually jet propulsion instead of rocket).
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