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Old 2004-12-01, 03:27   Link #61
Shaoran
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Ah, Shinn is an angry teenager. Need anyone say more? lol In any case, I'm relatively sure that Athrun's influence will somehow simmer down Shinn a bit. Though it wasn't clear cut and in the open, I got the feeling that Shinn looks up to Athrun just a bit, and that might help Athrun calm that lunatic down a bit later.
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Old 2004-12-01, 19:01   Link #62
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For any person who constantly complains about Shin's outburst of rage towards Cagalli, I would like to see you try to keep calm and control yourself after seeing your entire family dead, in pieces, such? Imagine never being able to erase this image from your mind and the very person partially responsible, though not much but her being an Attha and sugar-coating reality abit is enough, is there in your view talking about pacifism? If you weren't able to understand and accept the reasoning behind Shin's outburst, you think too much of yourself.
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Old 2004-12-01, 19:12   Link #63
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Though there is a certain amount of justification behind Shinn's outbursts of rage, I think what people are trying to get at is that Cagalli has gone through the same thing, and doesn't deserve to be on the recieving end of those scathing insults. Let us not forget that Cagalli has lost her father, her three best friends, her home, and most likely hundreds of other people that she knew who were caught up in the devastation of Orb. So while Shinn's outbursts have some justifiable reasons underlying them, he's acting like an ignorant fool if he truly believes that there is no possible way for her to understand what he's gone through. He's merely lashing out at her because there's no one else convenient enough to blame. Ah, what a drama we have on our hands.
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Old 2004-12-01, 19:18   Link #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaoran
Though there is a certain amount of justification behind Shinn's outbursts of rage, I think what people are trying to get at is that Cagalli has gone through the same thing, and doesn't deserve to be on the recieving end of those scathing insults. Let us not forget that Cagalli has lost her father, her three best friends, her home, and most likely hundreds of other people that she knew who were caught up in the devastation of Orb. So while Shinn's outbursts have some justifiable reasons underlying them, he's acting like an ignorant fool if he truly believes that there is no possible way for her to understand what he's gone through. He's merely lashing out at her because there's no one else convenient enough to blame. Ah, what a drama we have on our hands.
I understand the point you're trying to make but, which has already been brought up, he hasn't had the chance to see and know the things that we know since it's impossible for him to get the entire Gundam Seed series if you get my drift. If the Gundam Seed series story start off with Gundam Seed Destiny and the first Gundam Seed series never was shown, we wouldn't have this discussion to begin with basically.
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Old 2004-12-01, 19:18   Link #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neodrag38
For any person who constantly complains about Shin's outburst of rage towards Cagalli, I would like to see you try to keep calm and control yourself after seeing your entire family dead, in pieces, such? Imagine never being able to erase this image from your mind and the very person partially responsible, though not much but her being an Attha and sugar-coating reality abit is enough, is there in your view talking about pacifism? If you weren't able to understand and accept the reasoning behind Shin's outburst, you think too much of yourself.
We all understand the reason why he outbursts. The thing is, he's just out of line. War is war, things like that happen. He can't blame the Atha family for his family's death. Uzumi chose to defend Orb, and there was some collateral damage. Now that Cagalli is trying to get everyone to put their weapons away, and he gets upset about it? This after the near destruction of the entire human race. Besides all that, it's been three years. I'm not saying he should forget about it, but it's not like he can't move on either. It's almost as if he doesn't want to let go until he's punished whoever was responsible for his tragedy even though there's no one to punish. His bickering about Cagalli's attitude to disarmament almost makes him seem like he's worried about his job security .
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Old 2004-12-01, 19:22   Link #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neodrag38
I understand the point you're trying to make but, which has already been brought up, he hasn't had the chance to see and know the things that we know since it's impossible for him to get the entire Gundam Seed series if you get my drift. If the Gundam Seed series story start off with Gundam Seed Destiny and the first Gundam Seed series never was shown, we wouldn't have this discussion to begin with basically.
Lol, we posted at the same time...

Anyway, so what you're saying is that he's mouthing off to anyone he wants even though he doesn't know anything about their situation himself. That just proves he IS an asshole.
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Old 2004-12-01, 19:25   Link #67
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Since he's the main character, and because I think his character design is pretty, I kinda really want to like Shinn, but he's really been going overboard recently. I understand he's angry at Orb even if that anger is misplaced, but especially in Ep 7 he attacked Cagalli for no good reason. Some of the stuff she said before about weapons and such was silly, but in this last incident there was nothing wrong with anything she was saying. Hopefully, Athrun will have a civillizing effect on him.
Also, the lameness of Shinn's gundam's design has started to bias me against him too. Do we need to see it get put together every episode??
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Old 2004-12-01, 19:26   Link #68
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Originally Posted by kikko_s
We all understand the reason why he outbursts. The thing is, he's just out of line. War is war, things like that happen. He can't blame the Atha family for his family's death. Uzumi chose to defend Orb, and there was some collateral damage. Now that Cagalli is trying to get everyone to put their weapons away, and he gets upset about it? This after the near destruction of the entire human race. Besides all that, it's been three years. I'm not saying he should forget about it, but it's not like he can't move on either. It's almost as if he doesn't want to let go until he's punished whoever was responsible for his tragedy even though there's no one to punish. His bickering about Cagalli's attitude to disarmament almost makes him seem like he's worried about his job security .
The problem is not simply that Shin doesn't believe that war should be an option, it's just that Cagalli seems to underestimate the grand scale of how impossible it is for human beings to resist the option of war. Even if there were never coordinators, some excuse or issue would still come up that would lead to war. Cagalli kind of gave off the idea that everyone can be willing to dismantle all their weapons and not need to go into a war, even though Blue Cosmos and other fanatical groups would definently make such an option impossible. I have a wierd feeling the episode 8 will probably shine a light on this bit of truth on Cagalli when she gets back to Orb, based on the preview for the next episode showing what looks like an obvious disagreement between the opinions of Cagalli and the other leaders of Orb.
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Old 2004-12-01, 19:31   Link #69
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Shinn should recreate the Kleuze Faction, double genocide!

And it would be so cool and ironic if Cagalli and Shinn become romantically involved with each other later in the series. (Though she is 2 years older, but that's not too big of a gap)
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Old 2004-12-01, 19:43   Link #70
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I wonder if anyone in ZAFT knows just how crazy Kleuze really was. I'm willing to bet that the majority of ZAFT still believes him to be a hero of the last war. Geez, that's a depressing thought right there.
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Old 2004-12-01, 19:50   Link #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neodrag38
The problem is not simply that Shin doesn't believe that war should be an option, it's just that Cagalli seems to underestimate the grand scale of how impossible it is for human beings to resist the option of war. Even if there were never coordinators, some excuse or issue would still come up that would lead to war. Cagalli kind of gave off the idea that everyone can be willing to dismantle all their weapons and not need to go into a war, even though Blue Cosmos and other fanatical groups would definently make such an option impossible. I have a wierd feeling the episode 8 will probably shine a light on this bit of truth on Cagalli when she gets back to Orb, based on the preview for the next episode showing what looks like an obvious disagreement between the opinions of Cagalli and the other leaders of Orb.
While it is true that pacifism is a naive and unrealistic ideal, it's obvious that isn't the reason why Shinn mouths off at Cagalli. He just doesn't like her. Besides, fanantical groups like Blue Cosmos cannot make total war. The Blue Cosmos needed to gain control of the military for them to attack PLANT (which they couldn't do unless that crazy traitor Cruze gave them the plans for neutron-jammer-cancellers). Blue Cosmos and the like are fringe groups, like terrorists. You can't send ships and MS and all those things at them. Counter-terrorism is a political/special ops/black ops/assassinations sort of thing.

And hey, pacifism worked in Gundam Wing
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Old 2004-12-01, 20:38   Link #72
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Originally Posted by kikko_s
While it is true that pacifism is a naive and unrealistic ideal, it's obvious that isn't the reason why Shinn mouths off at Cagalli. He just doesn't like her. Besides, fanantical groups like Blue Cosmos cannot make total war. The Blue Cosmos needed to gain control of the military for them to attack PLANT (which they couldn't do unless that crazy traitor Cruze gave them the plans for neutron-jammer-cancellers). Blue Cosmos and the like are fringe groups, like terrorists. You can't send ships and MS and all those things at them. Counter-terrorism is a political/special ops/black ops/assassinations sort of thing.

And hey, pacifism worked in Gundam Wing
I just saying that Shinn's experience of what war results in shows that war can't be placed as a simple problem that can be solved simply by having everyone agree to leave themselves defenseless is a naive idea. Shinn is mostly made at Cagalli about the death of his family but also the fact that the naive ideals that still weren't able to stop the destruction of Orb are spoken of as if they were the only absolute truth by Cagalli.

The other problem is that Blue Cosmos has become what Oz for for Gundam Wing became, basically gaining control of the the earth military forces for their own plans. Blue Cosmos has already been shown to have drastically high influence over the decisions of the earth alliance, as shown by Orb being attack by the earth alliance and possible future events. The fact that Blue Cosmos had three gundams in Gundam Seed shows that they have surpass the modern day notion of terrorist. Somehow they have been able to grow into an actual full-fledge organization that carries wait and control within the earth alliance.
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Old 2004-12-02, 01:09   Link #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kikko_s
We all understand the reason why he outbursts. The thing is, he's just out of line. War is war, things like that happen. He can't blame the Atha family for his family's death. Uzumi chose to defend Orb, and there was some collateral damage. Now that Cagalli is trying to get everyone to put their weapons away, and he gets upset about it? This after the near destruction of the entire human race. Besides all that, it's been three years. I'm not saying he should forget about it, but it's not like he can't move on either. It's almost as if he doesn't want to let go until he's punished whoever was responsible for his tragedy even though there's no one to punish. His bickering about Cagalli's attitude to disarmament almost makes him seem like he's worried about his job security .
Actually, I think he can. Uzumi's decisions were one of the contributing factors to Orb's destruction. And yes it is true that there was probably no way to avoid Orb being annexed, but Shinn doesn't know that.

You're right war is war, but pretty quotes just trivialize the fact that a young man's family died. Since he moved to the PLANTs, I can infer that he a.) doesn't have any family on earth, b.) if they exist he is estranged from them, or c.) he just doesn't want to stick around b/c of Blue Cosmos. So he's pretty much alone, and left to his won devices, right after his family has died to boot.

Additionally, the last two years of his life must have been incredibly hard. He's alone, his family died, his country was brutally annexed by EA, he joined ZAFT (which is a volunteer army, so he doesn't get paid for risking his life). I don't know about the rest of you, but if that happned to me I'd probably just curl up and die. However, despite all of this hardship he's managed to pull his life together, establish a steady income, made friends, and found a reason to continue living.

I think he's actually gotten over his families' death, the act of keeping his sister's cellphone is just his way of memorializing his family.

Personally, I don't think he wants to punish Cagalli. Remember when Lunamaria mentions to him that Cagalli might be on board he doesn't seem to care. The first time he flips out and yells at her, it's probably because he's had a really bad day. Think about it:

Shinn's day:
1.) Woke up and went shopping with Youlan.
2.) Groped a girl.
3.) Reported for duty.
4.) Armoury One is attacked. Dozens of ZAFT personnel, and Shinn probably knew most of them, are killed.
5.) Almost gets killed twice.

And after all of that Shinn goes back to the Minerva, and talks with Luna for a bit. Then he decides to hang out in the launch bay with Youlan and Vino, then suddenly Ms. Orb Representative comes in and starts yelling at Gilbert, and spouting off some BS rhetoric about disarming the military. Everyone's shocked and thinking who this tactless bitch is, and Shinn's suddenly reminded about his families' death. He knows who Cagalli is, and even if he didn't the clothes would give her away. Old wounds are re-opened, and it becomes obvious that Shinn hasn't completely dealt with their death. Shinn, who has as much tact as Cagalli, flies off the handle and he yells at her.

The second time he runs into her, she starts yelling at Youlan, one of Shinn's friends, who was obviously making a joke. Now Shinn is a guy who sticks by his friends, and suddenly this blonde bitch just shows up, and butts into their private conversation, and starts pouting more BS off, and basically implies that all of ZAFT wants the Naturals dead. So he gets mad again and lets her have it.

Shinn's only encountered Cagalli twice, he doesn't how much of a hard time she's having being a representative, or the really bad day she had. So really, I think Shinn's opinion of Cagilli is justified, since the first two times he sees her, she bitches at his respected authority figure, and his friend.

So it's no surprise that he yells at her again in episode 7, his opinion of her has already been firmly established. Also notice that the first time he yells at her, it can be interpreted that he's just defending Gilbert. The second time he's clearly standing up for his friend. The third time, well he's just being an ass, but he does a have point.

Additionally, Shinn is from Orb so he know how their fcuked up political system works, and since he really isn't the most rational person, he probably just assumes that if Orb let a nutbar be one of their leaders, then really the country isn't even worth acknowledging.

And btw, I do agree he is being an asshole and unreasonable. But that just makes me like him more, b/c his behaviour is consistent with that of a bereaved child. Boys his age have the hardest time dealing with bereavment, and with no one around to supervise his grieving, it's really no surprise to me that he would act the way he does.

Last edited by Raxtenko; 2004-12-03 at 12:40.
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Old 2004-12-03, 10:43   Link #74
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Originally Posted by Shaoran
I wonder if anyone in ZAFT knows just how crazy Kleuze really was. I'm willing to bet that the majority of ZAFT still believes him to be a hero of the last war. Geez, that's a depressing thought right there.
Too bad his idyllic reputation wasn't able to be smeared. Kira should have let HIM suffer some, not just hurry up and kill that poor cad.

Oh well, Kira charging wrecklessly at Rau, not caring about dodging the gun turret shots and shoving the beam saber through his cockpit was definitely a paramount example of just how the series led up to the end for him.
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Old 2004-12-03, 12:35   Link #75
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Yep, it was a pretty epic battle between those two. Watching it for the first time, I think I was actually physically saying "Nooooooo" when he lost METEOR, lol. Ah, a wrecked Freedom, it's still a painful sight to behold.
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Old 2004-12-03, 21:57   Link #76
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Yep, it was a pretty epic battle between those two. Watching it for the first time, I think I was actually physically saying "Nooooooo" when he lost METEOR, lol. Ah, a wrecked Freedom, it's still a painful sight to behold.

Well technically, we never saw Justice's METEOR unit get destroyed so it might have been recovered if it survived teh Genesis exploding or if it was simply recovered beforehand by the Eternal. So who knows, Freedom might use Justice's METEOR unit later in Destiny.

Shinn isn't really a bastard, he's just undisciplined. No soldier should be making those kinds of outbursts at a foreign diplomat. Suprised they haven't tossed in a cell for a few hours to cool down. They had to do that to amuro a couple times in MSG if I remember right.
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Old 2004-12-04, 12:47   Link #77
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Well technically, we never saw Justice's METEOR unit get destroyed so it might have been recovered if it survived teh Genesis exploding or if it was simply recovered beforehand by the Eternal. So who knows, Freedom might use Justice's METEOR unit later in Destiny.

Shinn isn't really a bastard, he's just undisciplined. No soldier should be making those kinds of outbursts at a foreign diplomat. Suprised they haven't tossed in a cell for a few hours to cool down. They had to do that to amuro a couple times in MSG if I remember right.
They did have to do that to Amuro a few times. They most likely did recover Justice's METEOR, as it would probably not be a good idea to leave something like that out floating in space for anyone to just pick up. I don't know how Kira will be deploying his Freedom, maybe Ramius will come back and head the ship he will be on. I don't know.

On the subject of acting out while you're a soldier, Kira wasn't even (technically) a soldier, rather a civilian and he always took orders, minus the times when he was morally opposed to taking them (And rightly so).
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Old 2004-12-04, 20:47   Link #78
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Originally Posted by Godtype
They did have to do that to Amuro a few times. They most likely did recover Justice's METEOR, as it would probably not be a good idea to leave something like that out floating in space for anyone to just pick up. I don't know how Kira will be deploying his Freedom, maybe Ramius will come back and head the ship he will be on. I don't know.

On the subject of acting out while you're a soldier, Kira wasn't even (technically) a soldier, rather a civilian and he always took orders, minus the times when he was morally opposed to taking them (And rightly so).
Well if they use the METEOR they'll have to bring back the Eternal. Also was talking about Shinn, not Kira with the military discipline though Kira's releasing Lacus should have been met the same. What he did was morally right (by Lacus anyways), but he also put the rest of the ship in serious danger. To be honest I seriously doubt Lacus minded being used like that really (well except for the death threat), on the Archangel and off she still prevented the battle. Would have worked out better for everybody if they just gave Lacus the mic on the Archangel's bridge.
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Old 2004-12-04, 21:18   Link #79
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Originally Posted by Sanjuronord
Well if they use the METEOR they'll have to bring back the Eternal. Also was talking about Shinn, not Kira with the military discipline though Kira's releasing Lacus should have been met the same. What he did was morally right (by Lacus anyways), but he also put the rest of the ship in serious danger. To be honest I seriously doubt Lacus minded being used like that really (well except for the death threat), on the Archangel and off she still prevented the battle. Would have worked out better for everybody if they just gave Lacus the mic on the Archangel's bridge.
I'm inclined to say that Freedom, METEOR, Eternal, Archangel, Kusanagi (sp?), Strike Rouge, Duel, and Buster were all destroyed after the battle was over. If they were all working towards disarmament, then what better example than to destroy the most powerful weapons that remained after the battle of Yakin Due?
My circumstantial evidence is that Isaac no longer pilots Duel, and I'm sure he had a great attachment to that suit. It seems that in every Gundam series i've watched (especially Wing), the suit seems to become an extension of the pilot, a part of his personality, his soul...I think Isaac would pilot Duel if it was still around.
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Old 2004-12-04, 23:01   Link #80
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Originally Posted by Depresionist
Shinn should recreate the Kleuze Faction, double genocide!

And it would be so cool and ironic if Cagalli and Shinn become romantically involved with each other later in the series. (Though she is 2 years older, but that's not too big of a gap)
They don't, if u look at the opening cinematics, Shinn will get involved with Stellar later on in the series. Athrun is shown with fake lacus leaning close to him for confort or protection (Destiny's Flay?)
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