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Old 2004-11-30, 13:38   Link #1
kikko_s
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The Science Behind MS [particular to GS and GSD]

*disclaimer*

*I UNDERSTAND THAT THIS IS A TV SHOW, NOT TO BE TAKEN LITERALLY, BUT THESE ARE JUST QUESTIONS I'VE PONDERED SINCE WATCHING GUNDAM*

*end disclaimer*


What kind of battery would power mobile suits? What kind of power source could provide the thrust needed to move such a vehicle like that? I mean, you can't use liquid or solid fossil fuel for thrust because you'd need so damn much of it. Look at fighter jets. They're small but almost the entire jet is a flying gas tank. Imagine what a MS would be like...a giant walking gas tank...*shudder*

Why Nuclear Power works:
Nuclear power works, even if it is extremely dangerous. My theory on how it works is that the thrust is generated by a series of tiny, controlled nuclear explosions (the machinery for such a device would be sooo expensive though).
Haha never mind the fact that you'd be spewing radiation out of your thrusters every time you move. But I think that's the only way it could work.

Any ideas?
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Old 2004-11-30, 14:33   Link #2
sinistral
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i thought this was explained before ? Fusion power ?
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Old 2004-11-30, 14:58   Link #3
Scherazade
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From what I understand, thrusters do use fuel. Thrusters are only in the backpack and in a couple of other spots depending on the suit [Strike has thrusters in the feet and calves]. Thrusters have their own fuel dependent engines, whereas the mobile suit itself works off of an electric battery. Movement of the limbs is controlled by the MS's main computer which likely sned electrical impulses to the limb that is to be moved. Basically like the human body recieves its instructions on how to move. The brain sends electrical impulses to our limbs and they move. That is what the "Neuro-link Disperssive" part of GUNDAM means.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sinstral
i thought this was explained before ? Fusion power ?
It's actually fission power. N Jammers cancel out fission reactions, which is why they are effective in taking down Earth's nuclear plants as well as any nuclear generator installed on any MS/MA without an N Jammer canceler.
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Old 2004-11-30, 15:02   Link #4
ZeusIrae
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no,it wasn't .Justice,freedom and providence are the only MS using nuclear power and it's fission not fusion.The head of a MS is 15 meter above the ground,his weight lmust be around 1OO tones.there's a lot of blindage.Te USAF experimented a long
time ago special fuels for jets,perhaps they made some progress in CE.But nuclear power for propusion is out of question,the ground troups would be fried and if the MS(mass produced) is destroyed you will have a lot of problems.Anyway the discussion won't get anywhere.Do you think anyone was able to predict the discovery of electrecity?

OoSorry scherazade you posted while I was writing the message.So I think i am repeating what you said.
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Old 2004-11-30, 15:24   Link #5
Komataguri
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Well, This isn't particular to SEED and Destiny, since they use Batteries in all units except Freedom, Justice and Providence..

But in the original Gundam, Zaku's are powered by nuclear reactors.

I remember in one particular episode of 08th MS Team, they were to use a beam sniper rifle to take out a zaku that was near a city..and the guy about died of nerves because he feared hitting the wrong spot and detonating the reactor.


As for the thrusters, They use a propellant fuel. I do not recall in what series it was in, but I recall on more then one occasion pilots speaking of how low their propellent tanks were and needed refilling.
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Old 2004-11-30, 15:50   Link #6
Scherazade
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Komataguri
Well, This isn't particular to SEED and Destiny, since they use Batteries in all units except Freedom, Justice and Providence..

But in the original Gundam, Zaku's are powered by nuclear reactors.

I remember in one particular episode of 08th MS Team, they were to use a beam sniper rifle to take out a zaku that was near a city..and the guy about died of nerves because he feared hitting the wrong spot and detonating the reactor.


As for the thrusters, They use a propellant fuel. I do not recall in what series it was in, but I recall on more then one occasion pilots speaking of how low their propellent tanks were and needed refilling.
Well, you don't really need a quote to prove that suits use propellant. You can look at the suits themselves. The Gelgoog Marine, Comand Marine, Jaeger all have propellant tanks attached to the suits. In Zeta, binders are partly used for extra propellant storage. I think the propellant used is derived from Helium 3. That's why ships in UC keep going out to Jupiter.

As for nuclear power, most suits in UC are started as using a compact nuclear reactor. It's possible thanks to Minovsky physics, it's in the books, so you don't have to defend that point either.

For the 08th Team ep you mentioned, it was episode 8; Sanders [the pilot you're refering to] used a standard beam rifle, not a sniper type. The main problem was that they were so far away that being off by a just a little bit could cause him to hit the reactor. Amuro was concerned about the samething when he was fighting in Side 7. It's the reason he was extremely careful in taking out the second Zaku, the first one blew a hole into the colony when it was destroyed.
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Old 2004-11-30, 16:01   Link #7
dreamless
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all MS in UC use fusion reactors. in SEED they use batteries and for those with NJC, fission reactors.

I think the way the trusters work is not using micro nuclear explosions, but to use the heat generated by the reactor to heat up some liquid so it sprays out in fast speed to propel the MS. In earth atmosphere the MS can use water and/or air for this.

Last edited by dreamless; 2004-11-30 at 16:54.
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Old 2004-11-30, 16:17   Link #8
Scherazade
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From several Gundam official entries [not my personal information]:

Propulsion systems:
The mobile suits and vehicles of the Universal Century use a variety of propulsion mechanisms. The most basic is a chemical rocket engine similar to those used in modern spacecraft, which uses a chemical reaction to ignite its propellant and generate thrust. A more efficient alternative is the thermonuclear rocket engine, which uses the thermal energy of a fusion reactor to heat the propellant to a far higher temperature than in a chemical rocket. The greater temperature means higher exhaust velocity, so the thermonuclear rocket requires less propellant to obtain a given amount of thrust. This is the standard propulsion system used in mobile suits and space warships.

The basic principle of the thermonuclear rocket engine can be used in other types of propulsion system. The thermonuclear jet engine draws in air from the atmosphere, and heats it to create thrust. Similarly, amphibious mobile suits use a thermonuclear hydrojet engine which runs on water. Some mobile suits and vehicles are even equipped with hybrid engines which can function as either rockets or jets, consuming propellant or air as circumstances permit

Helium 3:
A rare isotope of helium, which has only one neutron instead of the usual two. Helium-3 can be combined with deuterium, an isotope of hydrogen, in a "clean" fusion reaction which emits no harmful neutrons and thus requires far less radiation shielding than other types of fusion. In the Universal Century, this deuterium-helium-3 reaction is used in the thermonuclear reactors that power every mobile suit and space warship.

However, since only 0.015% of all helium atoms are of this type, helium-3 is virtually nonexistent on Earth. The only way to obtain this vital fusion fuel is to collect it from the atmosphere of the solar system's outer planets, a task performed by the vessels of the Jupiter Fleet.

Generator:
A device which converts the energy of a mobile suit's thermonuclear reactor into electrical power. Electricity can be obtained directly from the reactor core via magnetohydrodynamics (MHD), and the heat emitted by the reactor can also be converted to electrical power using turbines. In this fashion, the reactor provides the mobile suit with an abundant supply of electricity.

Thermonuclear reactor:
A high-temperature fusion reactor which produces electrical power via a generator, and whose heat energy can be used to run thermonuclear rocket engines. The thermonuclear reactors of the Universal Century employ a deuterium-helium-3 reaction which generates virtually no neutrons, eliminating the need for bulky radiation shielding.

In U.C. 0071, this fusion technology is further refined to create an ultracompact high-output model, which uses a powerful I-field to confine the plasma inside the reactor. Three years later, this ultracompact thermonuclear reactor is chosen as the power source for the Principality of Zeon's prototype MS-04 mobile suit, and it goes on to become the standard power source of all mobile suits, mobile armors, and combat spacecraft.

That should be about all the info needed for an understanding of UC MS power. UC uses fusion reactors, possible because of Minovsky particles. CE uses electric batteries or fission reactors.
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Old 2004-11-30, 16:33   Link #9
kikko_s
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Ok but what about non-nuclear forms of power? Aegis, Strike, Blitz, Duel, and Buster...along with every normal grunt MS in the series doesn't run on nuclear power. I would have a hard time swallowing that they all use a fossil fuel propellant.

As for fusion/fission, those would just power the suit's electrical motors and what not. I'm talking about like, how it flies, how it controls itself in space. Because you wouldn't be able to do that with just a nuclear reactor.

That thermonuclear rocket sounds cool though. Is that something that people are actually researching? I heard the newest research in space propulsion is using matter-anti-matter reactions (muahahaha). They're 100% efficient! But they've only been able to isolate a few atoms of anti-Hydrogen

It would make Gundam more believable if the series had matter-anti-matter reactor driven MS. Although to harness that much anti-matter...dayumn...I heard a few atoms of antimatter reacted with matter is like a 500lb bomb or something (don't quote me). Not even enough to see. You'd really have to reinforce your magnetic chamber suspending the antimatter in midair, or you'd have some major problems once the stuff reacted with the wall.
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Old 2004-11-30, 16:49   Link #10
Tupsumato
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I'd also like to ask a question about the MS' in GS and GSD:

How are the suits controlled? Though there's all kinds of buttons and switches, and that handle for the thruster, I don't recall seeing a joystick or anything like that for general moving. Have I just missed it/them/something, or are the suits controlled via something like IFS in Martian Successor Nadesico or so. The pilots, after all, just sit in the cockpit, not "move around" like when using some sort of exoskeleton (Full Metal Panic, Ghost in The Shell:Stand Alone Complex).
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Old 2004-11-30, 16:53   Link #11
kikko_s
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tupsumato
I'd also like to ask a question about the MS' in GS and GSD:

How are the suits controlled? Though there's all kinds of buttons and switches, and that handle for the thruster, I don't recall seeing a joystick or anything like that for general moving. Have I just missed it/them/something, or are the suits controlled via something like IFS in Martian Successor Nadesico or so. The pilots, after all, just sit in the cockpit, not "move around" like when using some sort of exoskeleton (Full Metal Panic, Ghost in The Shell:Stand Alone Complex).
Good point! And why is it that they're always grunting as if they're struggling when they get into saber-locks. It's as if it's their own strength and not the suits. Which is pretty...well...ridiculous. I can understand being exhausted though, what with the G-Forces and spinning and what not.
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Old 2004-11-30, 18:35   Link #12
Neaco
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Speaking of beam sabers, I've always wondered how those work. More specifically the power source. I've always thought the saber would draw energy from the suit itself. Like if the gundam is holding a saber, there are electrodes in the gundam's hand that attach to the saber to power it. I can't think how a small battery in the saber itself would be able to power a beam bu itself. But I've seen Kira and others throw/stab thier sabers at enemies and let go yet the saber is still on. So there must be a battery inside the handle. heh silly question but it's always bothered me.

Last edited by Neaco; 2004-11-30 at 18:53.
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Old 2004-11-30, 20:08   Link #13
Scherazade
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[QUOTE=kikko_s]Ok but what about non-nuclear forms of power? Aegis, Strike, Blitz, Duel, and Buster...along with every normal grunt MS in the series doesn't run on nuclear power. I would have a hard time swallowing that they all use a fossil fuel propellant.

As for fusion/fission, those would just power the suit's electrical motors and what not. I'm talking about like, how it flies, how it controls itself in space. Because you wouldn't be able to do that with just a nuclear reactor.
[QUOTE]
Propellant is only used for thrusters in the following picture I've circled thrusters in redthruster locations on Dagger L. For moving the limbs a certain amount of electrical energy is used. MS in SEED used electrical batteries to provide the suit power. Thrusters use propellant, limbs and what not use electricity. Moving the arm doesn't require propellant, it requires electric energy.

Also, propellant doesn't have to be oil or fossil fuel:
Propellant:
The reaction mass used in the rocket engines of mobile suits and other spacecraft. When this propellant is discharged through the rocket nozzles, it creates a counter-force in the opposite direction, generating thrust. The amount of thrust depends on the exhaust velocity and the rate at which propellant mass is consumed, and since the former factor is subject to strict technological constraints, mobile suits must carry large quantities of propellant to sustain them throughout extended battles. Due to internal space limitations, some mobile suits carry additional propellant in external tanks.
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Old 2004-12-01, 23:12   Link #14
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The Science behind the original Gundam is called Minovsky Physics and Science

http://www.geocities.com/gundam_uc_0...ky_physics.htm
http://www.geocities.com/gundamxsite/sci/sci2.html
http://www.geocities.com/royzo/science/sci1.htm
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Old 2004-12-02, 00:58   Link #15
Scherazade
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F!reStr!fe
The first one is an RPG so that's something that should be taken with a grain of salt. The other two are pretty interesting. The information it has on the ZERO system concurs with notes I've made on my own over the years. However, it misses that ZERO was also put into Sandrock and that Quatre was able to use it effectively.
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Old 2004-12-02, 02:56   Link #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scherazade
From several Gundam official entries [not my personal information]:

Propulsion systems:
The mobile suits and vehicles of the Universal Century use a variety of propulsion mechanisms. The most basic is a chemical rocket engine similar to those used in modern spacecraft, which uses a chemical reaction to ignite its propellant and generate thrust. A more efficient alternative is the thermonuclear rocket engine, which uses the thermal energy of a fusion reactor to heat the propellant to a far higher temperature than in a chemical rocket. The greater temperature means higher exhaust velocity, so the thermonuclear rocket requires less propellant to obtain a given amount of thrust. This is the standard propulsion system used in mobile suits and space warships.

The basic principle of the thermonuclear rocket engine can be used in other types of propulsion system. The thermonuclear jet engine draws in air from the atmosphere, and heats it to create thrust. Similarly, amphibious mobile suits use a thermonuclear hydrojet engine which runs on water. Some mobile suits and vehicles are even equipped with hybrid engines which can function as either rockets or jets, consuming propellant or air as circumstances permit

Helium 3:
A rare isotope of helium, which has only one neutron instead of the usual two. Helium-3 can be combined with deuterium, an isotope of hydrogen, in a "clean" fusion reaction which emits no harmful neutrons and thus requires far less radiation shielding than other types of fusion. In the Universal Century, this deuterium-helium-3 reaction is used in the thermonuclear reactors that power every mobile suit and space warship.

However, since only 0.015% of all helium atoms are of this type, helium-3 is virtually nonexistent on Earth. The only way to obtain this vital fusion fuel is to collect it from the atmosphere of the solar system's outer planets, a task performed by the vessels of the Jupiter Fleet.

Generator:
A device which converts the energy of a mobile suit's thermonuclear reactor into electrical power. Electricity can be obtained directly from the reactor core via magnetohydrodynamics (MHD), and the heat emitted by the reactor can also be converted to electrical power using turbines. In this fashion, the reactor provides the mobile suit with an abundant supply of electricity.

Thermonuclear reactor:
A high-temperature fusion reactor which produces electrical power via a generator, and whose heat energy can be used to run thermonuclear rocket engines. The thermonuclear reactors of the Universal Century employ a deuterium-helium-3 reaction which generates virtually no neutrons, eliminating the need for bulky radiation shielding.

In U.C. 0071, this fusion technology is further refined to create an ultracompact high-output model, which uses a powerful I-field to confine the plasma inside the reactor. Three years later, this ultracompact thermonuclear reactor is chosen as the power source for the Principality of Zeon's prototype MS-04 mobile suit, and it goes on to become the standard power source of all mobile suits, mobile armors, and combat spacecraft.

That should be about all the info needed for an understanding of UC MS power. UC uses fusion reactors, possible because of Minovsky particles. CE uses electric batteries or fission reactors.
Sweet info
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Old 2004-12-02, 13:10   Link #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scherazade
However, it misses that ZERO was also put into Sandrock and that Quatre was able to use it effectively.
Not entirely, while the Wing Zero and Epyon were designed with the zero system as their core, Quatre's Sandrock had it installed as a backup system that he had to manually initiate. While he might have used the system in the Sandrock, the Gundam was not properly configured to use the system's full abilities (I like to think he used Zero-lite ^^: )

On top of that, his ability to use the system was extremely limited. In the series, when he is exposed to the full Zero system he immediately goes crazy and goes on a destructive rampage. Later, even under very limited exposure to the system he still has a great deal of difficulty with the system and can only use it for a short period of time while struggling greatly to maintain his self.
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Old 2004-12-02, 14:15   Link #18
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All MS's in Seed and Destiny minus Justice and Freedom use battery power. To make a battery capable of powering an MS for an extended period of time like 10 - 20 minutes wouldn't be all that hard. Power companies nowadays store incredible amounts of power in batteries nowadays for resale at a later date. If you used the best materials possible to create the bateries for example platinium, gold, and sub zero cooling all minimise power loss.

Also all of the suits use normal propelent to fly and move around in space. Note in space and near the center of a colony very little propelent is necessary to move around because there's little force acting upon the suit/ship. However on the earth if I remember correctly the only suits capable of sustained flight used speacially designed flight packs and boosters. All other suits simply could "hop" short distances. Made obvious by the fact in the irst gundam series Amuro had difficulty piloting the gundam because he wasn't used to the gravity yet.

Beam Sabres are battery powered as well when not in use and stored on the mobile suit their batteries are charged off of the suit's main reactor. Beam sabres can run out of power and it has happened before. I think in the original gundam series (I think). The only beam sabres connected to the suits reactor are the hyper beam sabre's for example the Eypon's beam sabre.

Beam Rifles originally had their own built in generators and batteries after the batteries were drained the generator would recharge them. This method however could take several minutes so the Federation developed the E-Cap system. The E-Cap system basically involves making a replaceble generator system similar to an ammo clip. Each clip would enable the rifle to fire a limited amount of times after which the clip is ejected and a new one is slapped in. This was more effective then the recharging generator and so it became the mainstream method for beam rifles in the UC era. Some suits like those used by the 8th MS Team had special ports build in enabling them to recharge these E-Cap clips.

However I'm unsure if the same systems are used in Seed because several times when Kira's going gun happy we keep getting glimpses of his battery power decreasing as if the gun was draining straight from the battery.
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Old 2004-12-02, 16:24   Link #19
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If i remember correctly, the suits in SEED do used links in the hands to feed engery into the weapons
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Old 2004-12-02, 16:31   Link #20
dreamless
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well, no first generation GAT-X series can do actual atmospheric flight, while Raider, Forbidden, Freedom, Justice, and supposedly Providence can do atmospheric flight.
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