Okay to steal softsub scripts?

[zalas]

Actually I was wondering about that... do people tag releases to proclaim their names to the masses, or do they tag releases so that they can be told apart?

[LytHka]

It's a bit of both, I think.

I think it's become a standard set by the anime leeching community in collaboration with the fansubing community to tell apart releases. So in fact, quite a few leechers *do* care what they download. If you're a fansubber who just likes to fansub for one self and you are at the same time an Übermensch who doesn't mind human emotions and nature you just won't care to put the group tag in or for that matter you won't even name your group. (jk, kinda )
And if you're in a group who's just DVD ripping or the only one releasing a show, why would you need a group tag/name in the filename? It has to be the ego, right?

[CelesAurivern]

Originally Posted by zalas

Actually I was wondering about that... do people tag releases to proclaim their names to the masses, or do they tag releases so that they can be told apart?

They can be used as references for future employment.

Employer: So what references do you have to show?
Self: Uhhh... I did this show XXX... but we didn't credit ourselves for it...
Employer: Orly?

[Soluzar]

Originally Posted by CelesAurivern

They can be used as references for future employment.

Employer: So what references do you have to show?
Self: Uhhh... I did this show XXX... but we didn't credit ourselves for it...
Employer: Orly?

What? Evidence of illegal activities could be considered a reference for employment?

[Schneizel]

Celes's example is easy to be put into fansubbing terminology. D: Let's say you want to join Group A. You've been with Group Y for a while, and you feel like you could join another group. Group A asks, "Who have you been with in the past? What experience do you have?" and you go, "Group Y" but you can't prove you're actually part of Group Y because Group Y doesn't use credits. Not the best example but it illustrates what she means about references.

[Tonatale]

Credits also help too if someone has a specific question about something. We had someone come in with a specific editing question before and he was told to check the credits for the editor and direct his quesiton to that person. The same could be true for translation or encoding.

[SinsI]

What kind of poll is this? I find both answers less than satifactory.
Not giving credit for someone's work and calling that work your own is definetly not OK, at least without direct permission of that person to hide his identity.
On the other hand, I think that as long as you do give credit to the one who did it, you can do with it whatever you want - modify it in any way, re-time, correct, re-distribute, translate...

[deathbygirl]

I completely agree with Ledgem and to a lesser extent, LytHka's sarcastic remark (which I found pretty funny).

Yeah, fansub groups, in their core essence, exist to bring the medium to the community - nothing more, nothing less. But the group is comprised of people who spend quite a deal of time striving for excellence in their releases (or maybe not, but I don't think anybody really earnestly tries to produce a shit encode unless it's done intentionally) and to see those hours vanish in one demux and re-encode is really a shame. The "purists" of fansubbing state that it shouldn't be about the individual, only the end product; I don't really have any qualms with this claim, as it's a pretty noble notion to live by. But I can't stand some of the closed mindsets of these individuals; some of you guys seriously need to accept that your views are opinions, not the end-all to this debate. I personally agree with the "we're not Gods, but damn if we can't get a small amount of recognition" viewpoint; I don't do it for the praise or satisfying my own ego, but ultimately for the love of the shows. With all that said, a little recognition can't hurt. It's not even about the "having one's own pride with their own work but completely disrespecting the intellectual properties of the creators of the shows"; I mean, if someone didn't have any respect for the show, why would they dedicate a fair amount of time in an effort to translate the show? If you're fine with not having credits in your encodes, that's fine with me. I earnestly respect that decision, it takes a lot of discarding of pride (even on a non-inflated level) to commit to that and certainly not an easy choice to make. I also respect those who put credits in their encodes; It's not a cry for attention, it's in there so you realize that yes, actual people (under cool, enigmatic handles) slaved over the episode to make it happen.

I don't quite agree with the various groups all doing various shows for credit; some do it, like Dark` implied, but others release their versions of the shows because they think their version is superior to others. If a group isn't satisfied with a release of other shows available, they'll do their rendition of the show (provided they have the resources) because they believe the show is worth their resources. Oh, and last time I checked, groups were subbing various shows because they enjoyed using their time and investing it in their encodes; I can't stand people who say "Don't waste resources on this show, do _____ instead." The group will use their resources on whatever they damn well feel like, and it shouldn't be anyone else's prerogative to say otherwise. If you don't like the lack of coverage on a show, sub it yourself or STFU.

What I do agree with is Nicholi's claim that people aren't as dumb as they appear to be; blatant stealing will be noticed by the public and won't be condoned. Those groups will fade into obscurity in due time and shouldn't be a very big problem for legitimate groups, especially when you know their group is at the mercy of yours. A group could even release a ridiculous script that makes no connections to the action on-screen, and the latter group will be forced to either use it or have no explanation as to why they don't have a release for one week.

So I like a little recognition. Sue me. Just don't WTF bomb me with your personal position on the subject. I respect everyone's opinion about their take on the issue, but I do mind if people try and feed their opinion to me (or anyone else) and claim it's the "right" or "noble" methodology of thinking (as if there's such a thing). As for the topic, if certain groups ask and get permission, then all's fair game. If not, then not so much (but like it's been already iterated, what can you do?). The world, believe it or not, will still go 'round.

OT: On an off topic remark, the intellectual property analogy Fluff made is somewhat incorrect as well. Companies get concerned about fansub groups and contact them via C&D's because they're worried about loss of profits; it's not as if people are taking the ideas of the show and claiming it as their own.

[Vexx]

Originally Posted by bayoab

The poll question is binary w.r.t the OP, not the thread title. The question is not loaded. It is a simple, yes or no.

so... people are supposed to answer the poll question by ignoring the poll question and referring to the OP's comments which are not what people tend to look at .... and thats okay with you....

[Panon]

Originally Posted by zalas

Actually I was wondering about that... do people tag releases to proclaim their names to the masses, or do they tag releases so that they can be told apart?

That's easy to figure out - just look at whether they put the tag name before or after the shows name.

[Sergejack]

Making an hardsub from a softsub guarantee a lesser loss of quality than hardsub from hardsub since you don't have sub artifacts at first and since you can even use another source as raw (DVD).

One said he was pissed off when he saw his hardsub reencoded light, gimme a script (even muxed with a raw) I'll get a better raw if needed, either way I'll make a worthy light release, but what else than light crap could I do with an hardsub as source ?

That "Reencode fear" about softsub must be The hoax.

---

One thing about credits, theire only wise purpose is to allow people to get in touch with the personns responsible of the sub in order to submit their opinions on it.
If you don't bare critisim then that purpose is sure void and the sole purpose of the credits remaining is flattering your ego (I don't mind, but don't pretend your the noble subber).

[Ledgem]

Originally Posted by Panon

That's easy to figure out - just look at whether they put the tag name before or after the shows name.

It couldn't be because it's become something of a standard, could it? No, impossible!

When I tag episodes, I don't think twice about it: group tag first, series after. I've seen series first and group tag after, but it looks "wrong" because it isn't the standard. The standard, in this case, is defined by the majority. The majority of subs, as you know, have the tag first. I'll give you credit: your assumption may have merit, and it may be true for some groups. I'm going to put out my own assumption and assume that others think the same way I do with regard to that.

Evidence proving that fansubbers don't ego-trip their groups: for groups with long names and/or a series with a long title, the group name is always abbreviated before the series is.

Just out of curiosity, why do people feel that fansubbers are all glory-seekers and/or resent them? I don't understand where these accusations are coming from.

[Quarkboy]

Originally Posted by Panon

That's easy to figure out - just look at whether they put the tag name before or after the shows name.

Uh... that's really shortsighted of you to say that. I prefer that filenames are tagged with the group FIRST, because then sorting alphabetically also groups each group's episodes together (in case I'm downloading more than one version of a show, which happens on occaision). It has nothing to do with group name prominance, it's simply more convinient that way.

[Maceart]

Well said Quarkboy. Fansubbers do whatever is more convenient. If softsubs is more convenient (some groups don't have l33t haxxor encoders with 5 ghz computers to do the job) a simple MKV mux will do.

[Nicholi]

Originally Posted by gumbaloom

Whilst I tolerate and accept foreign fansubbers are going to transcribe subs that I work on, as a typesetter I'm reluctant to give them the scripts themselves because
a) it makes it too easy for them, if they want to fansub they should at least be able to time and edit their own SSA's.
b) More importantly to me, whilst the words themselves of the translates script might be a free for all considering no fansubber holds the rights to a show, the SSA code and styles used in typesetting are a different story. As a typesetter it takes a lot of work and effort to style a show and I see no reason why I should allow other people to just use all the stylings/sign typesets in their own fansubs and especially when the groups dont give credit for that.

These are the answers I have problems with and I don't know how many of you subscribe to the ideas behind them. As to reason "a" the problem with sharing is people are benefiting from your work.... Yes that is the entire point of sharing. Instead of forcing everyone else to do the same work you did, you could allow them to instead fine tune the possible mistakes in your subs (and please lets face it there are always a few mistakes here and there eventually). Overall it only reminds me of "I had to do it so you have to do it too" which is just childish. If you want to needlessly force others to do the exact same thing you did, so be it. Don't front it as anything else but being an arrogant prick. I am sure you didn't actually mean this but that is what it turns into as a "reason." You yourself have likely put a lot of work into the subs but not wanting to share all that great work is simply what it is, being selfish. You should be flattered and honored that people think so highly of your work they all want to use it. Not deathly afraid that they are somehow going to take it all away. Their final project can't stand without your work underneath to hold it up, before you even consider the people that do and do not acknowledge the originator.

Reason "b" is even worse because all it does is focus on the negative results of sharing. Because some bad things can happen makes sharing completely meaningless? Yes there will eventually be someone who uses the work without acknowledging the originator. I think we have clearly addressed that if people even do this they aren't going to make it far anyways. So what do they really matter? A few cheap bums will use your script without giving you "credit." Your world will come crumbling down? Is your release somehow going to become worthless because someone else used your subs too? Maybe you are forgetting other people actually want to use your script because it was great in the first place. It is more likely that a great number of people would use them with giving credit. What about alll the individual thank yous for people that just use it for personal projects? All of this because of some paranoia that someone will use your scripts without giving you full credit as the originator. Is that really the end of the discussion always when sharing subs comes up? Bad things will happen so any and all good outcomes are null and void.

Furthermore if it really is that big of a deal to hoard away the styling/timing/effects, you could simply reduce it down to the plain translated script. This is the majority of what people want but I don't quite understand the need to hide away the styles/timing/effects which obviously have a great amount of work put into them as well. Besides the same reasons of worrying that someone else might actually use them too. Just as well people could actually learn from what you have used inside them, unless that is a problem that people will know how you do things. I don't exactly see the problem... you made them and there is a lot of work in them, why does that immidiately exclude anyone else from ever being able to see them? You made them once and doubtless you will make awesome styles/timing/effects again for the next project, anyone simply copying them will only be fakes/copycats/posers/whatever. What is the big worry about? You are still you, and you made the great script in the first place. Once again there is likely to be a large number of people thanking you and credting you for the work but the few that won't somehow make it a reason to not share at all?

This thread unfortunately got derailed onto all this credit business, which I only responded to because that is the only thing I've seen people use as an excuse to not share subs. Just in case people aren't reading my posts completely through and through, I do believe fansubbers should take great pride in their work and feel great about the credit they get from their fans. It is a hell of a job you do and I don't believe it is selfish that you want to be acknowledged for the great work you do. However I don't like it when that turns into you crouching over the subs purring and calling it precious. You are directing your thoughts only to the most negative aspects of sharing the subs and being completely paranoid to other people using them. I find it sad to see that none of you will ever think differently about it it seems. You can't share the subs with anyone else because god forbid someone might start using that work without your permission or acknowledgement.

We do all agree on many things though it seems. Yes it should be that someone acknolwedges the originator of the work when they use it. Stating this over and over is pretty meaningless however when no one (except the softsubbers) are publicly releasing their subs. You should give credit where credit is do, but thats completely impossible since people are forced to manually transcribe the subs anyways. How does this sentiment have any meaning when no one is embracing sharing in the first place. It would be awesome if groups could trust each other enough to do this, but obviously they can't. I don't mean to implicate that all of you are the ones worrying about people stealing the techniques in your scripts. Some of you might very well give away the entire subs, effects and all when requested. I'm not quite sure why you just don't take the next step and slap them into a torrent right by the projects themselves. My writing is directed to the majority of groups which we all know answer with a simple and blatant No to sharing subs.

I admire that some fansubbers are using softsubs and unfortunately Tonatale's group is one of the ones that god burned. I would seriously hope that does not cause them to forever scorn softsubs now. Perhaps he could return and tell us if they decided to stop softsubbing because of this single incident or not.

[SirCanealot]

And if you're in a group who's just DVD ripping or the only one releasing a show, why would you need a group tag/name in the filename? It has to be the ego, right?

This whole attitude is stupid. If releases weren't tagged, how in the blue hell would I know who subbed it? Do you think I want to watch fansubs from any old group? I recently started watching a show that is meant to be REALLY good, but I was so turned off but the crapness of the subtitles, I couldn't watch past epsiode 2! (which really amused me for personal reasons, haha)
Releases should be tagged at all times. Anything else is silly. Isn't almost EVERYTHING "tagged" in this world?


And back to the original topic...

Imo, these people should have their head thrown through walls. Especially as I've met lots of people that I'd say would be "likely to do this." It's like they don't even seem to think on the same level as me. It's like they don't have any respect at all for anything or anyone and don't know anything about anything or anyone. It makes me wonder if I, and a chunk of the world, are actually higher beings or something :/
But I dunno. There are worse things in this world. While it's still a bad thing, I too think the fansubbing community would be better with some more sharing.
However, one of the main problems is that (for lack of a better term) there are so many "idiots" about (not only in fansubbing; in 99% of areas in the real world too). There are too many "idiots" that think fansubbing is something you can just pick up and do in about five seconds, or that what they're doing is perfect and that they don't even see any difference between what they're doing and what you're doing. Imo, intelligence starts with knowing exactly how stupid you are (which is why I'll admit I'm an idiot on 99% of subjects); and these people probably haven't even ever thought about things like this ^^
Too many time I've been asked (and seen people asking) why their encodes have "blocks" in when they encode to 175 megs. Hello? Why are you doing a job you know nothing about? >_<
Of course, that's the other point: you shouldn't NEED to know anything to fansub. If you want to fansub, you're free to in your own time. But that's another point, and I can't be bothered to comment.

Well, this came out as more than a random rant than I planned, but I've been working all weekend, so meh :P

[LytHka]

And Nicholi goes ignored...

Originally Posted by SirCanealot

This whole attitude is stupid. If releases weren't tagged, how in the blue hell would I know who subbed it? Do you think I want to watch fansubs from any old group? I recently started watching a show that is meant to be REALLY good, but I was so turned off but the crapness of the subtitles, I couldn't watch past epsiode 2! (which really amused me for personal reasons, haha)
Releases should be tagged at all times. Anything else is silly. Isn't almost EVERYTHING "tagged" in this world?

You missed out on my point? My point was that there are preachers in this topic who think that they are the only ones subbing anime out of the right reasons which equals "no credits" by their logic, when in fact they are mentioning their own group name to benefit them. The strife for high download numbers is omnipresent whether you're subbing for your inner satisfaction, the fans, the grattitude of others, your e-pen0r...

Oh, why I think the poll has awkward choices which I didn't pick: I do think stealing scripts is wrong, but I don't think I would still be fansubbing if I thought all stealing was wrong.

[getfresh]

Well at yourmom fansubs we don't promote ourselves lyth, we know we're the bestest ever!

j/k

this thread is stupid, script stealing has been going on forever. Only thing I can say to you is get over it. And as for dropping credits, I'm all for it, less work for me \o/. Having your name under a task doesn't count as a ref really anymore. In the more est. groups they ask their buddies to do such and such for em. Yes fansubbers talk to people outside of their own groups, it happens, be afraid we aren't all hermits. Hell I bet somewhere out there exists a fansubber channel where they all gather and flame one another >.>. But anyways why waste your time discussing if stealing scripts is wrong when you already are all set in your convictions and are just stating the same opinion over and over using different words, why not... READ A BOOK! Or better yet go out for a walk, some nice fresh air could do you good ^_^!

[Eliath]

My stance as a translator is, if you want the scripts of our previous release, feel free to ask, and I'm more then willing to hand the unedited, untimed script over, if you ask nicely and don't use the script for profit.

I’ll say a typical translation by me is at most 80-90% accurate, and if you want to use it, and can make the script better, so be it.

However, just demuxing/OCRing a script off and encoding it to another raw, without doing any other further work, is where I draw the line.

At least “steal intelligently” by editing it, retypeset it or something, if you want to rip it off…

On another note though, ripping subtitles is not as bad as what several sites are doing, i.e ripping subs or reencoding releases, then offering them for download, for a fee.

This is my own personal opinion, and don’t reflect that of my group~
- Eliza Shige

[Laughing Manji]

Been lurking in this thread a while, too many places to quote, but all the good points are really made (and its staying polite too for such a sensitive topic - I should hang here more often). Jumping in at this point:

Originally Posted by Ledgem

When I tag episodes, I don't think twice about it: group tag first, series after. I've seen series first and group tag after, but it looks "wrong" because it isn't the standard.

As an anime *fan*, to me, group-name-first fulfills a useful purpose - seperating groups alphabetically in a list. If you care about getting all episodes from the same group this is useful. I live in a broadband impoverished country where DVD trades (postal) of fansubs is depressingly common by necessity. I can afford to wait for my favoured group (its not like I have a choice), but if I receive a mixed bunch I can tell them apart.

Originally Posted by Ledgem

Just out of curiosity, why do people feel that fansubbers are all glory-seekers and/or resent them? I don't understand where these accusations are coming from.

Because enough of them are. Not a majority by any means, but enough to be noticed by the fan community. Especially when the 'slighted' groups get uppity in a very public manner about speedsubbing/script stealing/plagiarism. And the victims are very good unlicensed series going neglected because one group/project implodes as soon as they are overtaken/ a translator exits the scene in a fit of pique.

Torrent comments are for release information, not slagging off other groups. They are a highly visible form (to fans) of the worst excesses of fansubbers, or infuriating comments like "Anime_Foo_v3 OMG! New release!!! Now with Karaoke & timing!"

Certainly there is a perception among fans that there are a lot of groups only in it for fame/personal gratification. Considering that there are enough english fansub groups to ensure that every airing anime episode gets translated, with labour to spare on tackling older series, yet many titles, even very good ones languish unfansubbed.

I can understand that a fansubber wants their work to be relevant or meaningful (i.e. people watched it after all the effort they put in) but it adds to the perception when six groups race each other to see how many v2+'s they can bring out.

That sounds like I have tarred every fansubber with the same brush - but I am addressing Ledgem's comments about where the negative perception of fansubbers come from (a very loud obnoxious minority). The diligent fansubbers are too busy working on releases to engage in positive PR in their own defense. Which is how it should be - we will judge you by your releases.

And to address some of the points made:
- Some of the posters here have insisted that they should be at least asked for their subs if they are to be made into a non-english release. Sounds fair, but I have heard horror stories about european subbers being chased off IRC channels for asking this. Y'know being polite and all. You think someone is going to go through that experience again on the off-chance that the second group has a better attitude? Forgiveness is easier to obtain than permission.
- If you are worried about them recycling typestting (point raised by the L-E staffer) just give them pure timed translations (like .srts or whatever). Giving them untimed translations is unfair "We have already done all this work, but we insist you redo it anyway".

And to address the original point:
-Taking someones scripts and passing it off as your own work is unfair.
-Appropriating a pre-release (leaked) script to get a release before the original fansubbers, is worse - it serves no purpose whatsoever. Not to fans or fansubbing. And the effect on a group can be pretty destructive in the case of leaking (which of you mailed the scripts to them), especially where a translator is several episodes ahead of the released episodes (i.e. the thieving group gets a huge release boost).
-Using the scripts without permission, but crediting the translation I consider ethical. *I think this is utterly pointless if you are just cloning the original release*, but there are many legitimate uses, like coupling with a higher quality HDTV RAW, original group botched the encode, original group broke up and episodes unseeded, retiming and re-releasing for DVD RAWs, non-english translation, or re-encoding for compatibility with unusual players like standalones, tweaked x-boxes, i-pods etc. With exception perhaps of the groups who compress the hell out of it, chop the OP/ED out so that they can get it on their DDL site (and make fans jump through hoops to get the 'privelege' of downloading it). Basically you are increasing or continuing the availability of the fansub to a wider audience where the original groups is unable or unwilling to do so.

I strongly believe in crediting the original group if possible (even with 'scripts located from this website'). Script re-use doesn't have to be a messy experience. I know one fansubber who is toying with the idea of releasing subs only, and seeding the RAW they were timed from, and is happy to give the scripts to whoever asks for them (let *their* distro take the hit). Their work reaches more fans, just not directly.

I guess what it comes down to is if some group takes your script without permission or credit you can
a) whine about it
b) get on with life

It will happen anyway, and the groups with the worst motives are going to target softsubbed releases (laziness). You should accept that its going to happen, or have an open sharing policy to groups who would re-release for legit reasons.