News Stories

[Ithekro]

About the only thing that was given up in Africa was the colonialism/imperialism.

[Yu Ominae]

The father of Yukawa, the dead hostage, was overwhelmed by his execution.

[ganbaru]

Wall Street flat after leftists win Greek elections
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/...0KZ18N20150126

Obama ends day of Indian pageantry with $4 billion pledge
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/...0KX0OW20150126

[SaintessHeart]

Originally Posted by ganbaru

Wall Street flat after leftists win Greek elections
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/...0KZ18N20150126

Merkel is putting on her boots, ready to KICK someone out of Europe......

[KiraYamatoFan]

Originally Posted by SaintessHeart

Merkel is putting on her boots, ready to KICK someone out of Europe......

That would be about time after all of Greece's antics and a good warning for some other Euro countries...

Spoiler for appropriate analogy:

Seriously though, it's a real shame considering that leaning a government that far towards the left is nowhere near the right solution as the problems are running deeper. People in France would even say now that François Hollande has been doing a lousier job at the helm than any of his right-leaning predecessors after his party promised this or that.

[Kafriel]

In my humble opinion, the current PM just promised the future people would want to see without any kind of backing, which means Greece will either be getting another loan or come up with new taxes to somehow pull through. Leaving the E.U. will allow him to underestimate the currency of the country, which would in fact be a good thing right now...except that's not what his agenda describes.

What's actually more amazing is that Golden Dawn ranked THIRD. Never underestimate the stupidity of man...although I imagine they gained the vote of the elderly, who support them for some very odd reason.

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by Kafriel

In my humble opinion, the current PM just promised the future people would want to see without any kind of backing, which means Greece will either be getting another loan or come up with new taxes to somehow pull through. Leaving the E.U. will allow him to underestimate the currency of the country, which would in fact be a good thing right now...except that's not what his agenda describes.

it is game of Chicken

Syriza thinks Germany won't dare kick Greece out of the Euro because of all the unforeseen consequences such a act would cause. Of course is merkal calls their bluff they have nothing else to stand on.

What's actually more amazing is that Golden Dawn ranked THIRD. Never underestimate the stupidity of man...although I imagine they gained the vote of the elderly, who support them for some very odd reason.

this is what happens when the main parties lost all credibility with the people and is seen as completely out of touch.

[Kafriel]

The bipartisanship that dominated the last three decades fell apart when Syriza essentially absorbed most of Pasok (steadily rising in popularity ever since, from 3% to ~37%) and N.D. was split at the same time. The number of "distractions" also increased with another 2-3 parties assembling, but I'll just say this: Syriza won because they had the best slogan...people will always choose hope, regardless of whether it is false or not.

...that being said, I can't peek into the future, so what happens next remains to be seen.

[Mentar]

Merkel and the others couldn't _kick_ them out. However, should Greece default on their debt, nobody will lend them money anymore, and they can't print money by themselves, so they would have to leave the Eurozone.

That's the absurdity of the situation. Tsipras and his lovely rightwing coalition partner Kammenos are insulting the creditors and particularly Merkel, but at the same time they demand that THEY pay the Greek's grandiose welfare state extensions, rollback of tax increases, hiring of a few hundred thousand more state clerks...

Seriously, you can't make this up. "Greece won back their national pride, we will no longer have bloodsucking occupiers dictate austerity to us, crippling our economy and sucking our blood! So forfeit our debt and pay us reparations from 70 years in the past, or else!"

Frankly, most of Europe has simply given up on them. No matter how many reforms were agreed on in return for their first debt haircuts, most of them were simply ignored. There's still parts in Greece with 85% of taxi drivers collecting blind men's rent. Over 50% of all Greek still evade or completely withhold tax. Their national rail system has more 'employees' than customers, total. And and and. Even if you'd forfeit all their debts YET AGAIN, they would end up in massive debt again in no time. Corruption is widespread and there is no social stigma to it. Instead, people who try to be honest upright citizens are ridiculed.

I don't see that Syriza will be able to realize more than 10% of their election promises, simply because the rest of Europe won't be willing to pay for them. So I personally hope that they will leave the Eurozone by themselves, as soon as possible. Then they can proudly stand on their own feet again. And serve the rest of the Eurozone as a warning example, because it will reduce Greece to a third-world country.

[Anh_Minh]

I hear a lot of noise from the far left saying the Greek elections somehow proved something. So, if they're going to turn themselves into a cautionary tale, I hope they do it fast. Before other countries follow their example.

Originally Posted by Kafriel

What's actually more amazing is that Golden Dawn ranked THIRD. Never underestimate the stupidity of man...although I imagine they gained the vote of the elderly, who support them for some very odd reason.

You say third, I say 17 seats out of 300. It's really not worth panicking over.

[Bri]

At least Greece is a democratic country, not only the rich and the corporations get to avoid taxes

While there are serious problems with corruption in the public sector and reforms, the Greeks have been forced to drink the poisoned chalice of austerity more than anyone. The social repercussions have been massive with a 25% drop in GDP, lower wages and pensions and very high unemployment. It's not surprising that populist parties have won the elections.

Greece was addicted to debt thanks to the low interest rate the participation in the Euro zone provides. We should not forget that major banks such as Deutsche, BNP Paribas and UBS who were more than happy to provide them with their fix, no questions asked. Other EU governments were also turning a blind eye to shady government finances in the south given the extra spending increased their exports. There is enough blame to go around for everyone.

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by Bri

At least Greece is a democratic country, not only the rich and the corporations get to avoid taxes

While there are serious problems with corruption in the public sector and reforms, the Greeks have been forced to drink the poisoned chalice of austerity more than anyone. The social repercussions have been massive with a 25% drop in GDP, lower wages and pensions and very high unemployment. It's not surprising that populist parties have won the elections.

Greece was addicted to debt thanks to the low interest rate the participation in the Euro zone provides. We should not forget that major banks such as Deutsche, BNP Paribas and UBS who were more than happy to provide them with their fix, no questions asked. Other EU governments were also turning a blind eye to shady government finances in the south given the extra demand increased exports. There is enough blame to go around for everyone.

there is enough blame to go around but the major still falls on the greeks.

old Chinese proverb. "You cannot push a cows head down unless it wants a drink of water"

no one force Greece to let its citizen retire at age 50 or let a entire island collect disability.

[Bri]

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

there is enough blame to go around but the major still falls on the greeks.

old Chinese proverb. "You cannot push a cows head down unless it wants a drink of water"

no one force Greece to let its citizen retire at age 50 or let a entire island collect disability.

True, the original fault of unsustainable debt lies with Greece. Still, the dealer is now telling the junkie to cut back on food and housing to pay off his drugs. That hypocrisy is a bit ugly.

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by Bri

True, the original fault of unsustainable debt lies with Greece. Still, the dealer is now telling the junkie to cut back on food and housing to pay off his drugs. That hypocrisy is a bit ugly.

has junkie reform any of its bad habits?

if junkie isn't willing to reform its bad habits no point in being lenient.

[Mentar]

Originally Posted by Bri

At least Greece is a democratic country, not only the rich and the corporations get to avoid taxes

Unfortunately, that's not really very funny, Bri. When a society is so dysfunctional that more than half of the citizens refuse to pay taxes, how are you supposed to create a working state?

While there are serious problems with corruption in the public sector and reforms, the Greeks have been forced to drink the poisoned chalice of austerity more than anyone. The social repercussions have been massive with a 25% drop in GDP, lower wages and pensions and very high unemployment. It's not surprising that populist parties have won the elections.

I agree that it's not surprising. Unfortunately, it's also _necessary_.

Greece is like a drug addict going through the agony of cold turkey. And now they're about to blame others for this pain and take the next shot. It may temporarily lessen the pain, but it's going to destroy Greece. Living on borrowing and EU money is not going to work out much longer.

Greece was addicted to debt thanks to the low interest rate the participation in the Euro zone provides. We should not forget that major banks such as Deutsche, BNP Paribas and UBS who were more than happy to provide them with their fix, no questions asked. Other EU governments were also turning a blind eye to shady government finances in the south given the extra spending increased their exports. There is enough blame to go around for everyone.

"You shouldn't have borrowed Greece money" isn't terribly convincing to me. Yes, creditors should accept the natural risk of borrowing money to a debitor of questionable reliability, but I'm one of the strangely old-fashioned guys who still think that money that has been borrowed needs to be paid back. And this "it's only those corrupt elites of ours, we are innocent" defense gets on my nerves in the light of the widespread acceptance of corruption.

So, I did have some degree of sympathy at the beginning of the crisis. This sympathy eroded the longer necessary reforms (end of tax evasion culture, lack of land registry, end of nepotism and corruption in public offices, etc. etc.) were stonewalled. And add to that the culture of victimization ("It's the others' fault!"), and after all the years I'd prefer to leave them to their own devices, so that they can proudly "stand on their own feet" after "shaking off the shackles of the bloodsuckers".

[Bri]

Originally Posted by Mentar

Unfortunately, that's not really very funny, Bri. When a society is so dysfunctional that more than half of the citizens refuse to pay taxes, how are you supposed to create a working state?

The poor tax morality goes hand in hand with public sector corruption. Crack down on the latter and the former will improve. Remember that over 25% of the working population is unemployed and the current tax short fall is also caused by the reduction in the size of the economy. It may sound odd but Greece has high income taxes, lowering those might actually increase tax revenue overall (and employment). The financial markets have been fairly satisfied with Greece's performance given the drop in bond yields over time.

Originally Posted by Mentar

I agree that it's not surprising. Unfortunately, it's also _necessary_.

Greece is like a drug addict going through the agony of cold turkey. And now they're about to blame others for this pain and take the next shot. It may temporarily lessen the pain, but it's going to destroy Greece. Living on borrowing and EU money is not going to work out much longer.

It's necessary to lower the debt and close the deficit over time, I agree, but there ways to reduce the withdrawal symptoms. Strong austerity measures while most of Europe is in recession is not exactly a healthy way of kicking a habit.

Originally Posted by Mentar

"You shouldn't have borrowed Greece money" isn't terribly convincing to me. Yes, creditors should accept the natural risk of borrowing money to a debitor of questionable reliability, but I'm one of the strangely old-fashioned guys who still think that money that has been borrowed needs to be paid back. And this "it's only those corrupt elites of ours, we are innocent" defense gets on my nerves in the light of the widespread acceptance of corruption.

We could have just let the Greek government go bankrupt if the European banking sector had been designed properly. In that sense we have ourselves to blame for the bailout. A banking union would have spread the risks of a default, and forced the financial markets to pick up the tab instead of the tax payer. Bankruptcy should hurt, but turning the perpetrator in to third world nation is in no ones interest.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Mentar

Yes, creditors should accept the natural risk of borrowing money to a debitor of questionable reliability, but I'm one of the strangely old-fashioned guys who still think that money that has been borrowed needs to be paid back.

Actually, your sentence is contradictory. By your logic if all debt needed to be paid, then there is NO RISK, and without Risk, why does creditors charge interest payments?

The only reason you pay interest is the risk! So if all debts need to be paid, logically all loans should be interest-free.

This is actually why people buy US government bonds, when they technically lose money from inflation. The risk is zero, so money managers are willing to take the loss to park their money there.

Greece should have already paid the original principle by now. So by your argument they no longer owe the creditors anything. After all, no risk means no interest rate. And no compound interest mean most loans are already paid up.

[Kafriel]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Actually, your sentence is contradictory. By your logic if all debt needed to be paid, then there is NO RISK, and without Risk, why does creditors charge interest payments?

The only reason you pay interest is the risk! So if all debts need to be paid, logically all loans should be interest-free.

This is actually why people buy US government bonds, when they technically lose money from inflation. The risk is zero, so money managers are willing to take the loss to park their money there.

Greece should have already paid the original principle by now. So by your argument they no longer owe the creditors anything. After all, no risk means no interest rate. And no compound interest mean most loans are already paid up.

Word. IMO the debt should be completely erased, it's an excuse for impossible taxes (e.g. if you have a house and a car, you can't be considered unemployed, or the fact that we're currently paying twice for landed property, etc.) which leads to further tax "evasion", since you have to evade what you can't really pay. After that, I'd be happy not to receive another loan for a good decade or two - even without "progress", this country needs stability and solid ground to expand on before trying anything else.

Do note that, even so, there are people who still collect the pensions of deceased relatives and my biggest personal bone right now is the pension that congressmen receive: 6k monthly, provided they have served for 8 years. With life expectancy rising and more and more people entering the parliament, imagine how much of this country's income will be invested in feeding these people...and at the same time, today's youth is being exploited at below basic salaries and unpaid overtime (and I mean a LOT of unpaid overtime, which I've seen reaching 116 hours).

[monster]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

if all debt needed to be paid, then there is NO RISK, and without Risk, why does creditors charge interest payments?

The only reason you pay interest is the risk! So if all debts need to be paid, logically all loans should be interest-free.

Isn't a loan an investment? If it is, then interest should still exist as a means to profit.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by monster

Isn't a loan an investment? If it is, then interest should still exist as a means to profit.

By that argument then no one would buy US government bonds. As I just said, currently you LOSE money buying it, but people buy it anyway because risk is zero.

You invest for a profit as an intention, but the amount of profit is proportional to the risk. The more chance of you losing your money, the higher the interest payment.

When chance to lose your money is ZERO, the interest rate is ZERO or even negatives. Because there is a healthy market of people wanting their cash stored in Bonds to avoid taxes. The fact is "not losing money" is actually valuable enough that people are willing to pay for the privilege. So no, you don't need to pay any interest rate if you can guarantee zero risk.

Conversely, and this is the core of my argument, if you invest in risky ventures for high interest rates, don't act surprised if you lose that money. You can either guarantee to get your money back, or get high interest rate payments. Not both.