2010-03-13, 16:21 | Link #21 | |||
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If you imagine the brain as a computational system, it is much easier for it to discern simple and more ordered systems than chaotic ones. Thus, its easier for us to think of past events, which are computational simple, then to think of future events which are harder to calculate. That is why the human mind perceives an arrow that is not necessarily true. The universe works just as well forwards as backwards, just only way is computationally simpler to understand. This is probably not the best explanation, and if your interested in this topic you should search for "entropy and the arrow of time" Sol Falling, you are basically correct about string theory (now membrane theory), the only thing i'd caution you on is that String theory is one of those ideas that has been and might always will be 10 years from completion. Its a nice idea, but by no means the correct one. I do believe that there are probably other dimensions, and that reality is much grander than we imagine, or can possible imagine. (teleporters and timetravelers - its the same thing - are forth dimensional beings) |
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2010-03-14, 12:30 | Link #22 | |
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2010-03-14, 14:43 | Link #23 |
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surely you meant telekinesis.
Also, it wouldn't seem to imply telekinesis in the classic sense per se. More like telekinesis as an action mechanism. Aero Shooters, for example, can't use telekinesis in the broad spectrum, but maybe the method employed to move the wind is selective telekinesis biased towards air.
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2010-03-18, 16:07 | Link #25 |
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I'll address the current discussion later; I just wanted to comment about the thread idea as a whole.
Everyone should be aware that; if you go deep enough, applying scientific theory to super powers is exactly as stupid as it seems (if something about railgun's setting made you think it was a good idea, it wasn't). I think it's fun and all, but in the end I can just see this thread becoming a huge mob where everybody correctly proves everybody else wrong. Oh well, this seems like a fun place to learn FUNSCIENCE =). I don't have time now, but I'll catch up later. Last edited by babohtea; 2010-03-18 at 16:42. |
2010-03-18, 16:46 | Link #27 |
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About the whole spacetime dimension order jargon: I have a question.
Dimensions are dimensions, regardless of what "axis" you choose, right? We like to envision the axii of the second dimension being at a perfect right angle, but it really isn't like that, right? In actuality, the perfect grid's we envision the dimensions to be in are actually just that way for convenient reference, right? Anyhow, how do we know the order of dimensions again? How do we even know there's an order to them? Is it really the "third dimension, the fourth dimension", or is it just an object with 3 dimensions? What I'm saying is, how are all of the theoretical thinkers determining the order of the dimensions? Can we "skip" dimensions by being constant in the 4th dimension but then free to dance around in the 5th axis of movement? I'm so confused how these thinkers determined the sequence of different dimensions when we can't observe them. |
2010-03-18, 18:41 | Link #28 | ||||
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It feels much better to have a discussion without thinking you might be going to off topic. And i like how you opened it up to include all abilities in general. Quote:
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It might seem like we are adding dimensions in an order when we start talking about higher and higher dimensions, but it helps to imagine lower dimensions first. Take a plane like a sheet of paper. Everything drawn on that sheet exists virtually in only 2 dimensions (avoided saying '2nd'). When you bend and fold that sheet through 3 dimensions, it doesn't effect what's happening on the 2 dimensional plane. In the same way, you should imagine our dimensions as being a plane in a 4th or 5th dimensional world: warping and twisting, without us noticing. Technically if higher dimensions exist, we have a higher dimensional space, it would just be that we are unaware of this. Getting back to the anime side of things, i was wonder what Touma's ability could be? I'm guessing, since it effects both magic and ESP it has a source opposite regular abilities. I also never fully understood his ability in the first place; if he can't stop the physical outcome of an ability, why can he stop Misaka's railgun? doesn't the coin have a velocity independent of her power, once its neutralized? (or maybe hes just gotten lucky, and her go full power on him, vaporizing the coin.) |
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2010-03-18, 19:05 | Link #29 | |
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Fiamma of God's Right Seat believes he knows what Touma's ability is. It is something of Divine nature. And he wants it to complete his power. Come to think of it if we believe Touma about his bad luck and it is associated with Imagin Breaker, Touma is the exact opposite of a Saint who has unnatural luck, like Kaori. |
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2010-03-18, 20:45 | Link #30 | ||
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2010-03-18, 20:45 | Link #31 |
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I've speculated previously that esper powers work the way they do because their users think they're "supposed to" work that way because they (the users) perceive reality as working in a particular way and their ability affects (some) things in reality in a specific way.
tl:dr it's magic by another name. My opinion of Touma's power is that he's able to impose his perception of reality onto anything he touches. It's just unfortunate for espers and mages that his reality is one in which magic and esper powers don't exist and therefore can't affect him. |
2010-03-18, 21:44 | Link #32 |
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Common misunderstanding, but that's not how magic work in this story.
They don't exactly wrap reality the way Esper supposedly do. They borrow powers and use them in formulas written with the laws of magic in mind. They don't change reality, they just play by a different set of rules. (Yes, I remember Aureolus Izzard. There was something that the anime failed to mention- he was in fact writing an original grimoire.) That wouldn't work anymore because we know that Imagine Breaker isn't an Esper power to begin with.
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2010-03-18, 23:20 | Link #34 |
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It's the closest thing we have for metafictional science...
Can we discuss the kind of non-ESPer tech here? I really want to iron it out with you guys how Heavy Weapon and that hijacked superfighter works.
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2010-03-19, 00:12 | Link #35 | |
less qq; more pewpew
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kwantum0, teleportation in the Index-verse works more like hyperspace/slipspace jumps. Objects using this method do not experience the relativistic effects of FTL travel, as they are still traveling at subliminal speeds inside slipspace. Basically, it's like taking a shortcut through dimensions. An excerpt from the link:
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On Imagine Breaker (IB): Remember the Omnipotence Paradox? The classic version of this goes: Could [an omnipotent being] create a stone so heavy that even that being could not lift it?Yes, I'm thinking that maybe, the God in Index-verse created this stone, and IB is a piece of it (piece, because obviously it's not powerful enough by itself yet, given how it takes time to erase extremely large or constantly regenerating supernatural phenomenon). God is a supernatural phenomenon, thus he cannot possibly lift the stone (IB) by himself, since it negates him and his powers.
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2010-03-19, 00:56 | Link #37 | |
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2010-03-19, 01:26 | Link #38 |
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I confess, this is the first time I've heard of this paradox, but interestingly enough it sort of fits. If you look at it like this,
"The being can either create a stone which it cannot lift, or it cannot create a stone which it cannot lift. If the being can create a stone that it cannot lift, then it seems that it can cease to be omnipotent. If the being cannot create a stone which it cannot lift, then it seems it is already not omnipotent." Either way, the 'stone' destroyed the illusion of Omnipotence, or that it's proof of the existence of something that was once Omnipotent. This really fits into the contexts of the toaruverse. At this rate, you might as well include magic. I know I know, some of you guys are about to complain, but the magic in toaruverse is not the same as just pull stuff out of your arse. Alot of background information comes from real-life historical individuals, events, and artifacts... Just added a little storywritting twist. Many of these are quite fascinating to read about. So yes, you can think about it as a history and literature lesson, in addition to math and science.
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Last edited by Chaos2Frozen; 2010-03-19 at 01:49. |
2010-03-19, 02:37 | Link #39 | ||
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The Omnipotence Paradox was a very nice insight. I had known about such an argument, but i complete missed the relation to Touma's ability. (at the same time I don't read much of the manga, so i probably don't know as much as others on this forum). I don't know if you've heard about this, but in information systems, there is something known as the principle of computational equivalence. An implication of this is that there is a threshold of maximum complexity that a system can obtain. We can imagine Touma's ability as being above this limit. Something which is slightly more complex than the highest possible complexity. This would make the mechanism of his ability virtually unknowable, and also have the nice side effect of being able to absorb entropy (since it would have a negative entropic value) aka. other abilities and or powers. Actually, since we can assume it to be permanent, it would be more like a topological defect in reality. |
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2010-03-19, 09:17 | Link #40 |
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1. Do these three teleportation abilities work in the same way?
- Teleportation - Move point - Kill point (used by Saraku, Operative of MEMBER) I think it's strange that the author didn't mix these threes into one Teleportation ability... If there are more teleportation ability appear, I think it will be "Switch Point" (Switch the position of the user and the target) |
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