(L) Persona 5 - The Animation

[Mad Pierrot]

Remember the chairs and chains from the game's trailer? Are they symbolic of something?

[Twi]

Shackles of society.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Kanon

Look at Joker's outfit. They were inside a palace. How he managed to get arrested despite using methods that should make him impossible to catch is part of the mystery.

Hadn't paid attention to that.

Though it doesn't change the fact there's something hypocritical about wanting to use the Law to punish someone for doing something not actually illegal.

[The Green One]

Brainwashing people against their will isn't illegal? Even if it is for a "good cause" the phantom thieves do NOT have the target's consent.

Dunno if their is an actual law so technically it may not be illegal I guess. Still morally questionable.

[GDB]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Hadn't paid attention to that.

Though it doesn't change the fact there's something hypocritical about wanting to use the Law to punish someone for doing something not actually illegal.

Vigilantism, while not illegal, USUALLY involves doing things that are illegal for normal citizens. The Police do not know how the Phantom Thieves are doing what they're doing, so they're erring on the side of "magic isn't real" and investigating.

Originally Posted by The Green One

Brainwashing people against their will isn't illegal? Even if it is for a "good cause" the phantom thieves do NOT have the target's consent.

Dunno if their is an actual law so technically it may not be illegal I guess. Still morally questionable.

It's not really brainwashing, though. It's basically like arguing with someone and making them realize how much of a toxic POS they've been. But with magic and them not knowing there's a debate going on until they come to the realization.

[The Green One]

Originally Posted by GDB

It's not really brainwashing, though. It's basically like arguing with someone and making them realize how much of a toxic POS they've been. But with magic and them not knowing there's a debate going on until they come to the realization.

They are changing the way people think. By force. That's brainwashing. Plain and simple.

[Twi]

It really is. You're washing their brain of the source of their desires and leaving what's left behind to handle the collapse. The anime conditions you to just go with it because these people are really horrible.

[Kafriel]

Technically it's heart-washing. However, it's not really illegal, because the only people who can manifest a personal palace are those whose desires have been distorted to a high degree - normal folk let it all out in Mementos. So, they're basically restoring people to a previous state of heart/mind, which is pretty much just therapy, and thus legit.

[Twi]

You consent to therapy, which none of these people before hand have done so consciously. Or go because its court-mandated and pretend to learn something. But even if those desires are twisted, they're still part of the people who they belonged to and are precious enough that it can distort them. You're ripping away something that makes them who they are for good or for ill, rather than letting them naturally come to realize they'd be better off without it and cast it aside.

I'm not objecting to it because these are people who legitimately should be in jail and if society won't punish them unless they confess, then do what you have to prevent more victims. They're asking for it, and considering my alternative to Kamoshida was to toss him off the rooftops instead (or kill the king), I really do prefer their way since it keeps their hands relatively clean. So they're justified in doing it, and it's the lesser of evils they have to deal with the problems they have since every other option has fallen through.

I'm just not pretending its anything but heart-washing, as you put it.

[Kafriel]

Kamoshida and Madarame hurt not only others, but also themselves, both falling into depravity as an outlet for their guilt and self-loathing over their careers, and they are guilty of assisted suicide and culpable homicide, so one might say that taking their hearts saved them from certain self-destruction; they were in so deep, I highly doubt they'd ever change their ways if left to their own devices. Kamoshida had the school's silent tolerance, from both students and staff, and Madarame wouldn't even bother trying to work, since he could make money the easy way via counterfeits.

Kaneshiro is the same, he's a great fit as a target, since he's a mobster who can get away with literally anything.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by The Green One

Brainwashing people against their will isn't illegal? Even if it is for a "good cause" the phantom thieves do NOT have the target's consent.

"Brainwashing" isn't a legal term, AFAIK. So it really depends on what they do to accomplish it. That the police can prove. For example, praying very hard for an evil doer to have a change of heart, or sending him a letter with cogent arguments? Those are legal. Now, forcibly drugging people, or threatening them with violence to make them confess? Those are illegal, but the Thieves haven't done any of that.

As for invading a mental palace and stealing its treasure, it falls into the "WTH are you even talking about?" category. So, not illegal.

Dunno if their is an actual law so technically it may not be illegal I guess. Still morally questionable.

Oh, morally speaking, of course it's questionable. But that's not the point.

The Law, that is, the Judiciary, isn't there to punish people for immoral acts. It's there to punish them for illegal ones. There is some (a lot) of leeway to not punish people even if they've done something technically illegal, but there isn't for punishing people who haven't. At least, there shouldn't be, in non-dictatorship setting.

So, when Goro wants to punish them for "taking the law into their own hands", he's being a hypocrite, because he, too, wants to step outside the letter of the law to redress what he perceives as a moral failure.

He needs to prove that something illegal actually happened. It's not enough to not like something. Of course, like I said, there may have been a few minor acts that were illegal - but that's not what Goro was talking about.

[Mad Pierrot]

Man, these "villains" in Persona 5 sure give the feeling of adultophobia a lot. Also, Ryuji sure acted weird when the dude mentioned "The Black Mask" but Ryuji didn't care about it. The Thieves could have at least asked more about who is the Black Mask

[Kanon]

I can't say I liked the way they kept alternating between daily life scenes and the palace. It was pretty jarring. Not to mention it's a heresy for game players. Everybody knows you have to clear palaces in as little tries as possible!

On the other hand, they tried to be faithful to the game by adapting the baton pass, but that looked kinda ridiculous animated

[Random14]

Well, its always hard to animate game mechanics. Especially ones that don't make much sense like the baton pass (well, less sense than usual). I remember P4G making fun of the scooter follow-up attack.

Nice to see Makoto settling into the group quickly, as well as more of her best girl traits. I'm not sure the boss was quite that ridiculous in the game, who is he supposed to be, Killerbee? Or maybe its because I only played with the dub voices. Either way it wasn't one of the game's more memorable moments.

Glad Makoto told off the principal. Too bad Sae's too busy to ask more details about Makoto during her interrogation. So their prestige keeps going up and they get their first hint of a big bad. I hope we get more social link scenes before the next big arc, I like seeing the characters interact more rather than the anime's attempts at fight scenes.

[Kafriel]

Looks like the animation team like Makoto too, so much time spent building up her confidant status... poor Ann couldn't even get a gift =/

My gripe for this episode: not enough dungeoneering. They showed the bank map switching around, but not the actual setup of the palace - how are people supposed to know what it is? This was also a pretty big dungeon, and since they went to the trouble of making it a full three weeks long (with only 3 days remaining in anime time), they could have focused a bit more on the palace side of things. Also kinda disappointed in the boss fight, they should have totally just crushed Kaneshiro under his piggy safe - it's hilarious, effective and does without an AAA.

Anyway, that's one more villain down, extra recognition for the Phantom Thieves' existence and awesomeness. Coming up next, a certain suspicious group, which ALSO gets assigned to Sae! Talk about bad luck...

[GDB]

My gripe: holy crap who OK'd this animation? I'm only 5 minutes in and I've seen an instance of Ren being a ghost (nothing below the wrist/waist when talking to Makoto about going to an arcade or karaoke) and an instance of super derp eyes on Ren when they bring the TV into his room.

Normally I'm one who says to get over minor animation errors, but these are so blatant and last until the next scene transition that they keep pulling me out of the episode itself.

[orion]

Since we're talking about Phantom Thieves and illegal activities, what about stalking? Does Japan have stalking laws?

[Kanon]

I played the game with Japanese voices and I don't remember Kaneshiro rapping there either. But maybe I erased it from my memory.

[Kyero Fox]

Originally Posted by Kanon

I played the game with Japanese voices and I don't remember Kaneshiro rapping there either. But maybe I erased it from my memory.

The Rapping was likely put in to spice up his fight more than being just another smack around like the last one was.

[Wandering Soul]

They really should leave the Baton Pass in the game. It just looks silly in the anime.