Gundam Seed/Seed Destiny General Discussion Thread

[Sir Dearka]

Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness

No what I meant was could CE do something other than some racist earth faction arising to eradicate the coordinators?

Since as I've already stated everyone is in ZAFT/Orb, it's pretty much set that whoever goes against them is pretty much screwed and pwned.

Who's "everyone"? Aren't there many countries? Maybe we should give a chance to the nations EA who could this time show their better face?

And well, ZAFT/Orb, like all the rest of the organizations all over the Gunbdam multiverse, could have their black sheeps, too. It's not like 'everyone' is programmed to listen to what ZAFT under Lacus or Orb under Cagalli says.

Give me any idea that could come up in UC, 00's AD, or any other Gundam universe and I'll easily convert the plot to CE reality.

[Renegade334]

Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness

No what I meant was could CE do something other than some racist earth faction arising to eradicate the coordinators?

Wars derived from genetics have been the crux of the CE universe, so if it is the starting point of everything you might as well bet your monies that it'll also be the ending point, for the sake of consistency (and, yes, Sunrise staff bashing shoved aside, we will assume there is some modicum of consistency, if not to bring proper closure to the series, if not bridge the way to a hypothetical sequel).

You could always start exploring the ideas of energy crisis or the appearance of bloated PMCs due to money-producing wars (LOGOS did start the whole mess for money, after all - investing in war is a lucrative business if you ultimately play your cards right), but I don't think it'll still retain the CE mark. CE's been about Coordinators and Naturals spanking each other because they can't accept the idea of coexistence and mutual acceptance. Even if it'll sound like a boring leitmotif in the end, it's still the genuine fabric of the CE world, so sorry, but you'll have to deal with it.

[Ledgem]

I think the biggest justification for saying that the CE universe is finished is because we know that what's coming is a movie, not a TV series. It's not impossible to do, but how do you create a powerful faction out of virtually nowhere and have an epic struggle within two hours, probably less? Set it farther in the future, sure, but as people have been pointing out, where do you get the new enemy and conflict from, without straying too far from the series and having people feel out of the loop?

After all, this isn't quite Pokemon - you can't just say "a new Pokemon has appeared and is causing trouble in PLANT City!" We've established that Gundam isn't realistic (that's right, D-KLAC, it isn't) but it is grounded enough that the situations it details could arise. This may be the reason I'm not a story writer and don't care to be, but I can't really imagine a situation involving fighting that won't either feel out of place or feel forced/redone. For what it's worth I felt that the conflict in SEED Destiny was incredibly forced, pulled out of thin air, and attempted to copy the conflict of SEED. I watched Destiny about two years after watching SEED and I was totally lost. I had to go back and rewatch SEED (a pleasurable experience) and then venture into Destiny. That may have led to my opinion being what it is, as SEED was fresh in my mind as I was watching Destiny.

[Sir Dearka]

Originally Posted by Renegade334

CE's been about Coordinators and Naturals spanking each other because they can't accept the idea of coexistence and mutual acceptance. Even if it'll sound like a boring leitmotif in the end, it's still the genuine fabric of the CE world, so sorry, but you'll have to deal with it.

I still think, though, that despite CE having this leitmotif it still could be used the way UC was used. To sprout many various stories. Interesting ones. Not necessarily relating directly to the main cast of the "main series".

[Sir Dearka]

Originally Posted by Ledgem

Set it farther in the future, sure, but as people have been pointing out, where do you get the new enemy and conflict from, without straying too far from the series and having people feel out of the loop?

Easy. Just focus on new characters and don't let the old cast involved too much like in Destiny. Zeta is a nice example of how to make a good well-balanced story with Amuro having his cameo and Char being a decent secondary main protagonist to the series. Same could've been done to Destiny, but Fukuda's wifey had different ideas about the old characters. Too bad.

[Renegade334]

Sure, but I believe that Morosawa and Co. did a grievous mistake in the way they wrote the conclusion for SEED Destiny (and, please, let's lay off the gratuitous 'not to mention that the entire series was a mistake'-type comments), as I feel like they were too committed to bringing closure to the Destiny plot that they didn't scout ahead and secure some room for a future installment. The 'all's well that ends well' ending sort of reduces the feeling that around the world there are still hot spots that need some tending, and Shinn's agreement to work with Kira and co. is sure not enough for me as a hint that there's more trouble down the road and their cooperation will be required for a true end of hostilities and animosities. Had there been a few signs that despite the war, there were tokens of unrest on Earth, I'd have been content, but nah, it leaves the staff with the aforementioned hurdle - from where should they pull off the new set of enemies? Sure, in UC there are a few instances where enemies arise without forewarning(s) carefully or skillfully embedded in preceding series/prequels, but I'd have preferred that Sunrise had overcome that issue before even considering a sequel.

[Sir Dearka]

I can see the Perfect Extended coming out from some secret European laboratory and face Kira or even defeat the boy Just one of sudden flashes in my mind as I was reading the posts :P

[Ledgem]

Originally Posted by Renegade334

Sure, but I believe that Morosawa and Co. did a grievous mistake in the way they wrote the conclusion for SEED Destiny (and, please, let's lay off the gratuitous 'not to mention that the entire series was a mistake'-type comments), as I feel like they were too committed to bringing closure to the Destiny plot that they didn't scout ahead and secure some room for a future installment. The 'all's well that ends well' ending sort of reduces the feeling that around the world there are still hot spots that need some tending...

I'd actually say the same thing about SEED. I thought the ending to SEED was beautifully done, and we were left with the prospect of a bright and beautiful future. The warring factions had destroyed each other or been shown the error of their ways and the world was tired of the fighting.

Yet in SEED Destiny we already hear talk of conflict, see weapons being built, and even see fighting going - all in episode 1. It was initially chalked up to being the actions of a radical group (which was believable) but suddenly the PLANTs and Earth are at war again, almost as if the events of SEED had never happened.

[Sir Dearka]

Originally Posted by Ledgem

I'd actually say the same thing about SEED. I thought the ending to SEED was beautifully done, and we were left with the prospect of a bright and beautiful future. The warring factions had destroyed each other or been shown the error of their ways and the world was tired of the fighting.

Yet in SEED Destiny we already hear talk of conflict, see weapons being built, and even see fighting going - all in episode 1. It was initially chalked up to being the actions of a radical group (which was believable) but suddenly the PLANTs and Earth are at war again, almost as if the events of SEED had never happened.

They did happen. But those who thought that there'd be eternal peace, turned out to be naive. That's the way things are in the world and we should accept it. I'd rather see the CE world never reaching the eternal peace rather than not having anything produced in this universe after the first series.

Let's face it. Even with such a beautiful end as the one in SEED, we know that there'd be always conflict. Humans'll always find their reasons to fight.

[Dean_the_Young]

If there is another Seed series...

I want international politics to have an increased role. I want to see gambits and conspiracies for influence, the tensions of Orb and Zaft lording over Earth, the friction which will result when Cagelli and Lacus realize that they won't always agree on a situation.

I want the Atlantic Federation to be more than a bag of shit, unable to get laid in a brothel. I want to see a nation who has rebuilt in inland locations after all coasts were wiped out by Coordinator terrorism. I want a return to the mixed bag of characters we saw in Seed, where military professionals like Natarle and Mwu contrasted with racist civilian elites supported by LOGOS. I want to see civil reforms, a crisis in national confidence, and a revaunchism that challenges the Plant-Orb dominated status quo.

I want the Eurasian Federation to be conflicted. I want Eastern Eurasia to resent being the charity case of the Atlantic Federation, but to hunger for the return of Western Europe enough that it hates ZAFT more than the AF. I want to see Western Europe fearful of Eastern, to cling to ZAFT's protection despite ZAFT's overstretch at protecting their own territories, while factions in the west remember which race it was that dropped the colony pieces that destroyed the heart of Western Civilization. I want both halves of Eurasia to resent Atlantic arrogance.

I want to see the United States of South America try and balance it's hatred of the Atlantic Federation who stole Central America and first-war favor for ZAFT against a cold, hard realization of which continent is stronger. I want border conflicts, cries of "Yankees go home!" met with a Manifest Destiny that wants to master the Atlantic and Pacific.

I want Africa to be a battleground for influence, a key resource region for ZAFT against anti-ZAFT courting to provide a base to attack the Suez and Gibralter. I want to see ZAFT tied to the largest supplier and market on Earth, forcing ZAFT to protect it's economic heart.

I want to see the Equatorial Union, India, be a player who works all sides against the others. I want Atlantic trade packages to contest against ZAFT proposals, seeking to create an indomitable buffer state or the uncounquerable base for dominating the Indian Ocean and isolating Suez and Australia.

I want to see Oceania, prospering but forever weak, clinging to ZAFT protection for fear of retribution from the world for its past support of the Coordinators. I want to see a willing vasal state that knows that, should ZAFT leave, it will be held accountable by others.

I want East Asia to struggle for international relevance in an era where manpower alone does not count. I want a rememberence of how the entire East Asian fleet was destroyed fighting for ZAFT at Heaven's Base, and at how East Asia has little presence outside its sphere. I want attempts to expand into space that are feared by ZAFT and matched by the Atlantic federation.

I want the moon to be a political contention, ZAFT fearing a remilitarized base to be attacked from and the Atlantic Federation wanting to reclaim its lost cities. I want to see the dead who were left on the moon to be a polititcal issue, a reason for the Atlantic Federation to defy ZAFT and return into space.

I want Orb to be pressed, realizing that peace does strange things to a small state who's main strength is its economy. I want to see ramifications of what happens when the rest of the world actually rebuilds their factories, and the loss of relative strength that follows. I want to witness the political pecularity and friction that occurs when an unelected ruler has the second most power in a world where every other nation and state has long since adopted representative governments.

I want ZAFT to come to terms with Lacus Clyne, chairwoman of several years. I want a slowly building opposition to consolidate, opposed by all means by a woman who believes her own judgement is the only justification she needs to wage war and peace. I want the Chairwoman to be confronted by the realities of power and alliances, of commitments and threats to security. And I want it to be all insufferably backed by the moral highground of Freedom and Justice, and enforced by those as well.

I want new sciences that transform and revolutionize warfare again, but without ZAFT being the only one to master them. I want mobilesuits who protect eachother with mass-produced beamshields, I want meteor-missiles that use the infinite-propulsion engine of Stargazer to secretly threaten the Plants from the asteroid belt. I want a a gun requiring a continent's worth of power that fires a warhead through space by bending the fabric of physical existence to connect two points and allow direct firing from A to C without going through B.

I want the fertility crisis to grip ZAFT, with debates about the necessity of cloning to merely keep ZAFT alive. I want world-wide opposition to ZAFT cloning itself as many coordinators as it wishes, while secret sabotage of PLANT research into fixing the fertility crisis.

I want politicians bloodied in war to come into this new age. I want a revaunchist Atlantic president, veteran of both Bloody Valentines but who opposes base racism, who hungers for a return pax-Atlantica and manifest destiny. I want a Eurasian leader who tries to reclaim what was lost, an Equatorial president who plays all sides for his own side's gain, a East Asian leader who looks to regain relevance, and a South American who tries to oppose the Atlantic Federation as much as his country can. I want a reaction against the Old Guard of leaders, against the peace-mongering Lacus and Cagelli who have enforced their dominance for years in the name of peace.

I want a war that will leave none unscathed, from an attempt to cut the head of the snake in the streets of Washington to inter-colony fighting in the PLANT capital. I want shifting alliances of necessity, overstretch and frantic setbacks, double dealing betrayals and deals with the devil, selling out one's allies to remove a grave threat. I want battlefield heroism and cowardness, I want teamwork to confound and marginalize aces of old, and I want a front where the shear terror of being assigned there is enough the worst punishment that can be given is to be shipped there.

I want words and steel, fire and chaos. I want an overthrowal of the world of old, and the recasting of a new order that none can be certain of. I want blood to flow down the streets of Washington, and pilots to die in re-entry over Mars. Confusion in the asteroid belt, intrigue in the domestic politics. I want an squadron of aces to merely hold off the greatest pilot of the age, of mobile-armor squadrons to rip apart mere mobile suits.

I want death and destruction on a indiscriminant basis. And I want ZAFT to lose.

[thephreak]

wow, how long did it take you to type that?

[Sir Dearka]

That sure is lots of wishes

[Dean_the_Young]

Originally Posted by thephreak

wow, how long did it take you to type that?

Consider that the rough outline for a Seed mega-project that's been bouncing in my head for monthes (but will likely never be written in full).

Originally Posted by Sir Dearka

That sure is lots of wishes

All of them good, I swear.

(Except for my intentions for ZAFT, ORB, and Terminal.)

[winter45]

Bundai look no further.. we found you a new director .. points at dean_the_young

[Dean_the_Young]

Bundai? Who's that? Sounds like a pockey company.



Ah, but as I hope I made clear, it wouldn't be some wanked cakewalk over ZAFT. Kira, for example, wouldn't be shot down until the very last episode or so, or at least not until he gets to discover the joys of fighting inside a colony in a mobile suit that only has beams. Until then, he'd survive, even if it does take a squadron of highly trained aces to hold him off.

Ooh, and invasion of the Atlantic Federation's capital. That's a good one in my head. Nasty street to street fighting, determined resistence, and always that nagging question: is this going to be another JOSH-A?

And I've got something special in mind for Western Europe, ZAFT, and the Eurasian Federation. Chairwoman Lacus, the Devil is on line three, he says he has a deal you can't refuse...

[SoldierOfDarkness]

Originally Posted by Ledgem

I'd actually say the same thing about SEED. I thought the ending to SEED was beautifully done, and we were left with the prospect of a bright and beautiful future. The warring factions had destroyed each other or been shown the error of their ways and the world was tired of the fighting.

Yet in SEED Destiny we already hear talk of conflict, see weapons being built, and even see fighting going - all in episode 1. It was initially chalked up to being the actions of a radical group (which was believable) but suddenly the PLANTs and Earth are at war again, almost as if the events of SEED had never happened.

IMO the SEED ending was good because both sides had agreed to a ceasefire ONLY. No one was actually destroyed in this case so not only did we had a prospect of a good future but it left some things open to interpretation. Sure ZAFT and the EA are finally going to the tables to talk but then what happens afterward?

In DESTINY the EAF is oblitered from the face of the Earth with all the main characters joining ZAFT/Orb which pretty much puts the ball in their court if anyone decides to challenge them.

I mean sure ZAFT and Orb could go at it but since all the good guys are in that side it's kinda hard to see how that'll materialize. And since you got Kira, Athrun, Shin, and Mwu on that side all of the battles are going to turn into Dynasty warriors.

Bundai look no further.. we found you a new director .. points at dean_the_young

Yeah what he said

I want the Atlantic Federation to be more than a bag of shit, unable to get laid in a brothel. I want to see a nation who has rebuilt in inland locations after all coasts were wiped out by Coordinator terrorism. I want a return to the mixed bag of characters we saw in Seed, where military professionals like Natarle and Mwu contrasted with racist civilian elites supported by LOGOS. I want to see civil reforms, a crisis in national confidence, and a revaunchism that challenges the Plant-Orb dominated status quo.

It's sad because IMO the Atlantic Federation did a lot better in the first war than in the second. And in that war they had MA!

I liked Stargazer because we actually got a POV from another side of the universe with the EA. If the trilogy is done, then obviously the POV is going to be from ZAFT/Orb with the EA who somehow resurrected from the dead as the big bad wolf again who is just fighting for the sake of fighting as someone else pointed out a long time ago.

[Synria_]

*Insert cuss words here* @ Dean the young.

Anyone wishing harm to Lacus is a sworn enemy of mine.

[Spitfire]

Originally Posted by Synria_

*Insert cuss words here* @ Dean the young.

Anyone wishing harm to Lacus is a sworn enemy of mine.

Then you might want to direct your profanity at more people than Just DTY. There are quite a few of us here who want that bitch to go down.

[Synria_]

*Insert cuss words here* to all people who want Lacus to go down.

ZAFT FTW! I will be her protector.

P.S. I'd like to here why you want Lacus gone anyway...

[Shinn_Kabuto]

Originally Posted by Synria_

*Insert cuss words here* @ Dean the young.

Anyone wishing harm to Lacus is a sworn enemy of mine.

Oh really? I want to see her doing a Suigintou or a Tomoe.