Shin High School Volume 1 Discussion

[KnightShade]

Originally Posted by Le Fay

No, he didn't

so the spoilers mean he...

Spoiler for spoilers:

literally slept alongside them?

ah oh well

[Le Fay]

Originally Posted by kidstandout

so the spoilers mean he...

Spoiler for spoilers:

literally slept alongside them?

ah oh well

yeah, though there were 9 people (Rias, Akeno, Asia, Kuroka, Koneko, Irina, Zenovia, Rossweisse, Ravel), not 8

[Palmito]

Originally Posted by Lucidrago

So then if she came to terms with it then why was Issei saying he would use Ravel less after the match in Volume 25?.it hasn't been solved yet. And plus Volume 25 hasn't even been translated yet if you haven't realized. That's going to be the focus of Ravel's volume.

Rias is a rookie? So what? Issei and Vali are rookies as well. When I used Diehauser and Rudiger, I was referring to Rating Games being about more than just who has the more powerful being. Not saying that Rias doesn't rely on overwhelming power. But as a king, she brings out the strength of her team members in interesting ways. Look at Balor Form and Strada being returned to his youth.

She does badly against stronger teams? Well how many teams has she beaten? You say Riser but you have to consider that Rias and her peerage were basically new to the Rating Games while Riser and his peerage had already competed in the Rating Games. Yet Rias' peerage basically took out all of his servants except for Yubelluna and Ravel. Riser was just an exceptional high-class devil who had won all his Rating Games. So Rias or the others overcoming Riser was basically impossible.

Her and Vali were evenly matched and either of them could have won the match. It was an equal tug-of-war that Vali just managed to come out on top with.

You use only two cases to say Rias can't defeat more powerful teams. Yet despite her being a rookie, all of but two of Riser's servants retired.

Now people are acting like the gap between Rias' and Issei's team is like the gap between Heaven and Earth or Goku and Krillin.

Yes she isn't perfect as king because she's still young. But as a king she has everything in order, knows how to effectively lead, and is a better king than Issei.

It was pointed out in the quotes that Typhon was the biggest weak point of their team. And especially when he allowed his selfishness to take over and he ended up being a liability and was more likely than not the biggest factor for their loss. It proves that you can't just judge a Rating Game by how powerful each person is. As Rias proved in Volume 24, that level of strength can easily change and nothing is constant.

You act as if Issei can't lose despite Ishibumi already having Issei lose once. Issei and his team are not invincible and cab lose against Rias. And you're acting as if the tournament's the only place where Issei can show off as the MC. Losing against Rias can serve as crucial character development for both Issei and Ravel.

So the reason you think Rias is going to beat Issei is because anything can happen in an rating game? You said losing would be a good development for Issei and Ravel, and that's exactly what happened in the game against Dulio. In the end you talked a lot and you have not yet presented a concrete reason why Issei would lose to Rias. See what you said to me in a past post:

"And I do not see Issei or Vali beating an opponent that the other has lost to. Like if Vali loses against Zeno's team and then Issei beats Zeno's team in the finals."

Vali won against Rias, so by your logic Issei should win against Rias too right? Be consistent with what you say.

[Lucidrago]

But it seems like the specs will give Issei quite some trouble. And Volume 24 was a first-time use and she managed to fight against an 80% Fenrir.

I just really don't see Issei winning. And that if he loses against anybody, It's going to be against Rias.

Issei and Vali are already destined to fight so that will happen. And Issei is going to fight Vali when Arthur fights Kiba.

Balberith and Verrine are the two Super Devils that Hades created using Lilith's power so really a confrontation with them is basically inevitable in this arc.

I see Issei losing and then Ishibumi giving him focus outside the tournament as he works to stop the forces acting behind the scenes. And even if he's no longer participating in the tournament, Bova and Roygun will still be his retainers, Ouryuu will still be the junior that admires him, and Elmenhilde will still be his future lover. And Grayfia his loyal sister-in-law. They're still going to be by Issei's side even if Issei gets knocked out of the tournament.

And knowing Ishibumi, I just have this strange feeling the fight between the Two Heavenly Dragons will be the final episode of the Oppai Dragon series. Vali's going to be the final villain with Arthur, Kuroka, and Bikou on his side. While Issei has Kiba, Koneko, and Rias on his side. And they face each other. It ends like it began. That's how the fight between Issei and Vali will happen.

[Palmito]

So basically you have no valid reason, you just want this to happen. OK.

[Crimson_Emperor]

@lucidrago you just don't want issei to win lol

And what's the point of it being biggest event in issei high school life if he's eliminated this early

[Lucidrago]

Well the only valid reason for people saying Issei will win is because he's the MC.

I was one of the main ones saying that Issei vs Rias would happen and that Issei would win. But now due to new info and the brackets, I pulled a 180. My first thought would be that Issei would face Ruval first and that would be Ravel's volume. But now looking at how Ishibumi set up the matches it now makes sense that Issei vs Rias would be Ravel's volume. And I decided that it would be a loss for Issei's team with that.

I have a reason but really it only makes sense to me. I'm not biased but I'm just trying to predict the turns the story will take. And most of the time I'm wrong. Like how I was vehemently denying that Ingvild would be a half-breed.

Just saying that it could go either way but I predict Rias' win for the match.

No hard feelings if I end up being completely wrong.

[Blazor 98]

Originally Posted by Lucidrago

So then if she came to terms with it then why was Issei saying he would use Ravel less after the match in Volume 25?.it hasn't been solved yet. And plus Volume 25 hasn't even been translated yet if you haven't realized. That's going to be the focus of Ravel's volume.

Rias is a rookie? So what? Issei and Vali are rookies as well. When I used Diehauser and Rudiger, I was referring to Rating Games being about more than just who has the more powerful being. Not saying that Rias doesn't rely on overwhelming power. But as a king, she brings out the strength of her team members in interesting ways. Look at Balor Form and Strada being returned to his youth.

She does badly against stronger teams? Well how many teams has she beaten? You say Riser but you have to consider that Rias and her peerage were basically new to the Rating Games while Riser and his peerage had already competed in the Rating Games. Yet Rias' peerage basically took out all of his servants except for Yubelluna and Ravel. Riser was just an exceptional high-class devil who had won all his Rating Games. So Rias or the others overcoming Riser was basically impossible.

Her and Vali were evenly matched and either of them could have won the match. It was an equal tug-of-war that Vali just managed to come out on top with.

You use only two cases to say Rias can't defeat more powerful teams. Yet despite her being a rookie, all of but two of Riser's servants retired.

Now people are acting like the gap between Rias' and Issei's team is like the gap between Heaven and Earth or Goku and Krillin.

Yes she isn't perfect as king because she's still young. But as a king she has everything in order, knows how to effectively lead, and is a better king than Issei.

It was pointed out in the quotes that Typhon was the biggest weak point of their team. And especially when he allowed his selfishness to take over and he ended up being a liability and was more likely than not the biggest factor for their loss. It proves that you can't just judge a Rating Game by how powerful each person is. As Rias proved in Volume 24, that level of strength can easily change and nothing is constant.

You act as if Issei can't lose despite Ishibumi already having Issei lose once. Issei and his team are not invincible and cab lose against Rias. And you're acting as if the tournament's the only place where Issei can show off as the MC. Losing against Rias can serve as crucial character development for both Issei and Ravel.

Note that I said "Ravel" came to terms about her path of supremacy which is why she didn't form any ruthless tactics after the match against Sona. She now take her teammates feelings into account now base on how she planned the matchups against Typhon's team Issei against Vidar for obvious reasons and Rossweiss against Brynhild. Issei needing to stop relying too much on Ravel is a different issue.

Yes, rating games are more than just about which team is more powerful but my point is Diehauser and Rudiger have the experience of beating teams that are equal or stronger. Rias doesn't have the experience due to her record. Riser and Vali are examples and Rias performance against Sona was bad since she Sona outsmarted her in nearly every way. Yes, Rias knows how to bring up her team's strength in various ways but that's not enough. Issei has done the same.( Xenovia [Crimson Destruction Dragonar],.summoning Ddraig)

Rias did well against Riser but was doomed to fail. Rias lost against Vali despite her team's best efforts because Vali's team outmanuered hers.

All but 2 of Riser's servants retired mainly because Rias servants were stronger thanks to Issei but look at how the game went. Rias wanted to capture the gym to prevent Riser from using it and then have Akeno destroy it but we later find out that Riser was merely using that as bait to draw out Rias servants. Koneko got retired and now Issei and Kiba was exposed and surrounded by many of Riser's servants. Riser carefully played his moves which in the end corners Rias. Riser lets Rias come to him while Yubella sweep away the rest of Rias servants except Issei.

Rias is no doubt a better king than Issei because he's still new. Sona is also a better than Issei but did she beat him?

Typhon only got carried away because of his excitement of fighting Ddraig. Before Ddraig appeared was there any weakness shown by Typhon? No, he retired Bova, Elmenhilde and Roygun couldn't fight anymore and afterwards he went to join Vidar and Apollon against Issei. Issei would've lost if not for Ddraig. The same can apply to Issei's Team as well. By the next Volume he also may have new surprises but we're basing on their team's currently strength and currently Issei's Team is much stronger than Rias team.

I'm not saying Issei is unbeatable but it wouldn't make sense if he lost before reaching the top 4. Once he reaches the top 4 then I can believe he would lose. I really see no way Rias would win without some sort of asspull or Ishibumi changing what's been foreshadowed since Issei becoming a Maou candidate has been built up ever since Vol 22.

You keep saying losing to Rias would serve as character but in what way? They already experience defeat in Volume 23 and Ravel came to terms taking her teammates feelings into account in Volume 24. Issei defeating Rias will be his stepping stone of becoming a better king and leader for his team.

[Raptor178]

Originally Posted by Djeveler

But you're acting as if it can only happen if Issei loses against Rias, or as if him losing to Rias is the only chance there is for him to lose.

If I missed something, who said this? I feel like in these kinds of "debates", people put text in others' messages just to argue.
It's clear that nobody's gonna be swayed on the matter, so at some point it's gotta chill out.

[B214]

Originally Posted by Palmito

So the reason you think Rias is going to beat Issei is because anything can happen in an rating game? You said losing would be a good development for Issei and Ravel, and that's exactly what happened in the game against Dulio. In the end you talked a lot and you have not yet presented a concrete reason why Issei would lose to Rias. See what you said to me in a past post:

"And I do not see Issei or Vali beating an opponent that the other has lost to. Like if Vali loses against Zeno's team and then Issei beats Zeno's team in the finals."

Vali won against Rias, so by your logic Issei should win against Rias too right? Be consistent with what you say.

You just said it, anything can happen in a Rating Game match. If they end up in a match with rules where the King can see the entire battlefield but unable to join the fight and only lead in the back, do you think Ise's team would have their advantage anymore?

[XFire]

Originally Posted by Lucidrago

Well the only valid reason for people saying Issei will win is because he's the MC.

I was one of the main ones saying that Issei vs Rias would happen and that Issei would win. But now due to new info and the brackets, I pulled a 180. My first thought would be that Issei would face Ruval first and that would be Ravel's volume. But now looking at how Ishibumi set up the matches it now makes sense that Issei vs Rias would be Ravel's volume. And I decided that it would be a loss for Issei's team with that.

I have a reason but really it only makes sense to me. I'm not biased but I'm just trying to predict the turns the story will take. And most of the time I'm wrong. Like how I was vehemently denying that Ingvild would be a half-breed.

Just saying that it could go either way but I predict Rias' win for the match.

No hard feelings if I end up being completely wrong.

What exactly makes you say that? On paper Issei's team is pretty solidly superior to Rias' now that Ddraig is part of it.

Nobody on her team can actually take out Xenovia as she is now because of Avalon, which means one of the members who would otherwise be greatly superior to her (Crom, Strada, or Balor Princess) would have to keep her occupied so she doesn't pick off the others with impunity. Likely Strada because affinity or something.

Issei and Ddraig are both around Crom's level. If Vali can keep him occupied so can Issei, and in turn so could Crom. That leaves one of them free to take on Balor Princess Rias.

While Rias held the upper hand against Fenrir while her form lasted, that was 80% Fenrir. Ddraig trashed someone equal to 100% Fenrir as a warmup. Issei is less powerful, but should still be comfortably superior to Fenrir at full power given what he did to someone stronger than Thor. Additionally they both have Penetrate, which would go right through her BP equip.

Issei's team also has Grayfia, someone at the upper limit of Maou class, and Roygun, who was able to hold off attacks from Typhon with her ability. Rossweise defeated Brynhildr with her staff, who was a God-class like the original iirc. Nobody left on Rias' team can realistically defeat these three without some kind of powerup.

Before Ddraig was part of the equation, Rias' team held the advantage since it had three three God-class fighters to Issei's one (himself). Now Issei has himself, someone stronger than himself, and someone a God is unable to damage. Moreover, Rias and Strada are both significantly below Issei and Ddraig in terms of power, tilting the field in Issei's favor. Add in the two high-end Maou girls and Rose, and the balance is now skewed fully towards him.

Looking purely at team comp and current standings, Issei holds a hefty advantage. Unless Rias' team gets some big upgrades, they seem kinda screwed at this point.

[Palmito]

Originally Posted by B214

You just said it, anything can happen in a Rating Game match. If they end up in a match with rules where the King can see the entire battlefield but unable to join the fight and only lead in the back, do you think Ise's team would have their advantage anymore?

The argument "anything can happen" is ridiculous. Issei can get a flu on the day of the match. Hades can make an attack in the city of Khuo and destroy it with a single blow through the inside of the barrier at the moment that the match between Rias and Issei is happening. You can say anything with the argument of "anything can happen". And of course. As others have said, in a specific scenario where the rules of the game are made to give the advantage to Rias team, then yes, Rias can win. But as XFire has already shown above, Issei's team is superior to Rias team, especially in an RG similar to the one she had with Vali.

[Djeveler]

Originally Posted by XFire

What exactly makes you say that? On paper Issei's team is pretty solidly superior to Rias' now that Ddraig is part of it.

Nobody on her team can actually take out Xenovia as she is now because of Avalon, which means one of the members who would otherwise be greatly superior to her (Crom, Strada, or Balor Princess) would have to keep her occupied so she doesn't pick off the others with impunity. Likely Strada because affinity or something.

Issei and Ddraig are both around Crom's level. If Vali can keep him occupied so can Issei, and in turn so could Crom. That leaves one of them free to take on Balor Princess Rias.

While Rias held the upper hand against Fenrir while her form lasted, that was 80% Fenrir. Ddraig trashed someone equal to 100% Fenrir as a warmup. Issei is less powerful, but should still be comfortably superior to Fenrir at full power given what he did to someone stronger than Thor. Additionally they both have Penetrate, which would go right through her BP equip.

Issei's team also has Grayfia, someone at the upper limit of Maou class, and Roygun, who was able to hold off attacks from Typhon with her ability. Rossweise defeated Brynhildr with her staff, who was a God-class like the original iirc. Nobody left on Rias' team can realistically defeat these three without some kind of powerup.

Before Ddraig was part of the equation, Rias' team held the advantage since it had three three God-class fighters to Issei's one (himself). Now Issei has himself, someone stronger than himself, and someone a God is unable to damage. Moreover, Rias and Strada are both significantly below Issei and Ddraig in terms of power, tilting the field in Issei's favor. Add in the two high-end Maou girls and Rose, and the balance is now skewed fully towards him.

Looking purely at team comp and current standings, Issei holds a hefty advantage. Unless Rias' team gets some big upgrades, they seem kinda screwed at this point.

While I agree on your main point of Issei's team being superior to Rias' in specs, some of your statements here are a little iffy.

First of all, Issei's victory against Vidar who was stronger than Thor was mostly because he had two boosted Dragon Slayer swords which had affinity toward him.

Brynhildr is not god-class since she just takes up one Knight spot, not two.

Where are Rias' three god-class fighters? She just has Crom, and then the second strongest would be herself in Balor form but even that is not god-class, being explicitly just superior to Maou class (there's no reason for Ishibumi to call her that if she was god-class).

Other than that I agree with most of the reasoning.

[Djeveler]

Originally Posted by Raptor178

If I missed something, who said this? I feel like in these kinds of "debates", people put text in others' messages just to argue.
It's clear that nobody's gonna be swayed on the matter, so at some point it's gotta chill out.

Lucidrago is constantly using Issei losing in conjunction with him losing against Rias as a possibility for character development, and is focusing on this matter to make his point.

However, this point could only be made if Issei could only possibly lose against Rias. After all, why would losing against anyone other than her not work for the supposed character development? Once you analyze it in this way his argument doesn't make much sense.

[Parry999]

Originally Posted by Djeveler

While I agree on your main point of Issei's team being superior to Rias' in specs, some of your statements here are a little iffy.

First of all, Issei's victory against Vidar who was stronger than Thor was mostly because he had two boosted Dragon Slayer swords which had affinity toward him.

Brynhildr is not god-class since she just takes up one Knight spot, not two.

Where are Rias' three god-class fighters? She just has Crom, and then the second strongest would be herself in Balor form but even that is not god-class, being explicitly just superior to Maou class (there's no reason for Ishibumi to call her that if she was god-class).

Other than that I agree with most of the reasoning.

What? Fenrir shits on average gods even at 80% and Rias can fight him. EJOD only feat was beating pluto and is called god class so Strada is also. Where is it said a god needs two pieces?

[Lord Kai]

Originally Posted by Djeveler

While I agree on your main point of Issei's team being superior to Rias' in specs, some of your statements here are a little iffy.

First of all, Issei's victory against Vidar who was stronger than Thor was mostly because he had two boosted Dragon Slayer swords which had affinity toward him.

Brynhildr is not god-class since she just takes up one Knight spot, not two.

Where are Rias' three god-class fighters? She just has Crom, and then the second strongest would be herself in Balor form but even that is not god-class, being explicitly just superior to Maou class (there's no reason for Ishibumi to call her that if she was god-class).

Other than that I agree with most of the reasoning.

Issei without both Ascalons is still above Thor. Issei was stronger than base Vidar (who was equal to Thor). Vidar need to use Midgard BxB (which put him above Thor) to fight Issei and they were evenly matched. Issei having 2 dragon slayers comes in handy. Especially if he fights Crom with them. In short Issei in his Pseudo DxD is still Heavenly Dragon-class.

[Djeveler]

Originally Posted by Parry999

What? Fenrir shits on average gods even at 80% and Rias can fight him. EJOD only feat was beating pluto and is called god class so Strada is also. Where is it said a god needs two pieces?

The Fenrir vs Rias talk is irrelevant because Rias had an immense compatibility advantage over Fenrir since she had constant time-stops and long range capabilities with added homing. Fenrir meanwhile has no long-range capacity, depending only on his body. It's clear who has the advantage here when we account for things other than raw power.

Strada's feat of managing to hit Vali is mostly due to a skill and experience advantage, not power, and you also have to take into account that Durandal is strong against Vali due to him being a Half-Devil.

The Azazel Cup rules, as explained by Yuuto in Volume 22, establish that a god-class being takes up all the spots of the respective piece they occupy. Therefore, they would take up two Knight spots if they are a Knight, or eight Pawn spots if they are a Pawn.

[Djeveler]

Originally Posted by Lord Kai

Issei without both Ascalons is still above Thor. Issei was stronger than base Vidar (who was equal to Thor). Vidar need to use Midgard BxB (which put him above Thor) to fight Issei and they were evenly matched. Issei having 2 dragon slayers comes in handy. Especially if he fights Crom with them. In short Issei in his Pseudo DxD is still Heavenly Dragon-class.

Vidar with his leg armor could still fight Pseudo-DxD Issei and he felt the impact of his attack through the Pseudo-DxD armor, and after using his Midgardsormr armor Issei pretty much could not hit him, with Vidar dancing through all his attacks while kicking him around.

[Lord Kai]

Originally Posted by Parry999

What? Fenrir shits on average gods even at 80% and Rias can fight him. EJOD only feat was beating pluto and is called god class so Strada is also. Where is it said a god needs two pieces?

It was explained in volume 22 that a team member who's at god-class requires either 2 Rooks, 2 Bishops, 2 knights, 8 pawns or 1 Queen piece.

Rias fights was Fenrir was impressive but I agree with Blazor. It was mainly because of compatability that she did well against Fenrir. It was stated that her form is above maou class, which is between maou class and low god class at best. Fenrir 80% isn't heavenly class, he's between mid god class to high god class at 80%. Rias was a bad match up for Fenrir. The reason why she had the advantage in her fight was because of those techniques that keep Fenrir unable to close the gap between them. If Fenrir give her a direct hit she would be done, but because time stop and her shadow teleportation she was saved from him. Also in the end although Fenrir was injured and stained in blood he wasn't out of breath or lost is will to fight, thats why he is heavenly class level. Heavenly class beings, have immense endurance, stamina, power, will and won't go down easily. Rias balor form lacks in many of this things. Now try a different match up Rias balor form vs Apollon, who do you think has the advantage? Apollo because he has range attacks and also his attack is light base,which is the weakness of devils and vampires. Now this one Fenrir 80% vs Apollo who has the advantage? Fenrir because of his god slaying fangs and Apollon doesn't posses anything to keep him at bay. As you can see you don't need to be at the exact same level as your opponent in order to give them a good fight. sometimes it depends on who you are facing and how good or bad your compatibility is.

[XFire]

Originally Posted by Djeveler

While I agree on your main point of Issei's team being superior to Rias' in specs, some of your statements here are a little iffy.

First of all, Issei's victory against Vidar who was stronger than Thor was mostly because he had two boosted Dragon Slayer swords which had affinity toward him.

No it wasn't. Issei overpowered him in a straight fight. He only used the sword as a surprise shot to finish him off. Vidar couldn't even hurt Issei through his armor until he put on the Dragon armor himself, and even after he was only dealing mediocre damage. The two of them were both on their knees by the time they decided to settle it.

Originally Posted by Djeveler

Brynhildr is not god-class since she just takes up one Knight spot, not two.

She was noted as being God-class like her original, so take that however you like.

Originally Posted by Djeveler

Where are Rias' three god-class fighters? She just has Crom, and then the second strongest would be herself in Balor form but even that is not god-class, being explicitly just superior to Maou class (there's no reason for Ishibumi to call her that if she was god-class).

Other than that I agree with most of the reasoning.

The class above Maou is God. There isn't an in-between space.

EJOD Vali is referred to as being God-class, and Strada punked it pretty easily. 80% Fenrir is stronger than most gods. Crom is self-explanatory.