[MANGA] Bleach Chapter 458 Discussion

[Haak]

Originally Posted by Lord of Pandemonium

It's because they said that wanted to get rid of their "Hollow" powers. Ichigo took about 8 years to accept his hollow side.... His hollow powers were the source of much grief, and he's wished he didn't have them. He could empathize with them, wanting to get rid of their hollow powers. That and he was so thirsty to get his own powers back, that he didn't dwell on it to long. I think that at the time, they did believe that they wished to be rid of their hollow powers, thanks to Tsukishima's tampering.

If it really is Tsukishima's tampering then I can understand but otherwise it makes no sense (So lets hope Kubo actually says it is). Why would Ichigo feel his hollow powers were a source of grief when Hichigo turned out to be an alright guy and his hollow powers only helped him? And even if he did, why would he think the fullbringers are the same when they've never given any indication that they have a hollow side to them? Chad should have also noticed since he has never given any indication that he disliked his powers and has no real reason to.

[Lendial]

another full page panel of ichigo getting butt flanked by aizen i mean ginjou.

[Lord of Pandemonium]

Originally Posted by Haak

If it really is Tsukishima's tampering then I can understand but otherwise it makes no sense (So lets hope Kubo actually says it is). Why would Ichigo feel his hollow powers were a source of grief when Hichigo turned out to be an alright guy and his hollow powers only helped him? And even if he did, why would he think the fullbringers are the same when they've never given any indication that they have a hollow side to them? Chad should have also noticed since he has never given any indication that he disliked his powers and has no real reason to.

At the end Ichigo realized that he was an alright guy. Before that, he feared him. If you remember, when Ichigo asked them, why would they want to get rid of their powers. Ginjou replied that Ichigo of all people should know what having hollow powers does them. He thought about his owns struggles. What was the source of his pain? Don't you remember, when Tensa made him face his hollow because Ichigo stopped moving forward? Do you remember Shinji telling him that he had to get control over his hollow or else he'd destroy everything. His friends, his family everything he loved. Do you remember how Ichigo froze and got the shit kicked out of him because he saw Yami's Zanpakuto and mask and realized they were like him. Then he began to struggle internally and fight to keep his own hollow at bay. Do you remember how he said that the hollow was in "his head" saying shit like I am going to take over?

Do you remember his passionate declaration to Shinji? "Ore wa Shinigami!" He disavowed anything that was remotely connected to his hollow. Those powers, went out of control and he almost killed one of his friends in HM. It wasn't until he needed to learn final getsuga that he accepted his hollow powers. Remembering his own struggles with his hollow powers, made him empathize with the Fullbringers, when they said they didn't like their powers. He 'd always prayed for normalcy, except when he got it, it didn't make him happy. Because of his own struggles and his eagerness to get his powers back, so he can become the "protector". He was satisfied with their explanation..

If you'd like, I can show you the panels that clearly show his loathing of his hollows. Is that allowed? I can show you, just not now because I have to get up in less than four hours and I am not even in the bed yet because I wanted to read yaoi while everyone is asleep, so I don't subject my boo to what he calls my "man porn"

Originally Posted by JustRob

This is all very confusing. I still don't understand why Ginjou bothered to train Ichigo. What is he after?

Ichigo's fullbring. It became a skull on Ginjou's sword. For some reason they wanted the power of Ichigo's fullbring... I am starting tho think they lied when they said it had to be something of your own... and they can use any fullbring if they have it in their hands. The badge carries the memories of Ichigo's power. They probably have a way to access that

[lucasd]

Originally Posted by Lord of Pandemonium

Er...Fullbring is a hollow ability. Ichigo looks like an arrancar. You can't take a Shinigami's weapon, because it's a part of their souls. The badge is merely an object. If Ginjou was stealing Shinigami powers---no there is no way he could steal Shinigami powers..he's not a Shinigami, but I suspect they probably killed one before.

Fullbringers needs a shiinigami to take their powers
but it seems they trained Ichigo to gain fullbringing so Ginjo - the shinigami could still his fullbringing powers...

After all if there was substitute shingami badge, it would be silly to assume Ichigo was the first one to get it...

BTW at the very beginning he shoved his badge, but we assumed it was stolen from Ichigo...

[Langus]

Fulbringers need a shinigami to take their powers... Enter the shinigami working with Urahara and Isshin. They will show up in the next chapter to steal/seal Ichigo's fullbring powers thwarting Ginjou and Tsukashima.

...I wish this wasn't so predictable.

[ronin myael]

if kubo had planned on getting his readers confused i'd say he's quite successful because i'm as confused as hell!

so, this is what i got so far. ginjo and tsukishima were in it from the start. they had planned to steal ichigo's fullbring that's why they targeted him, trained him until he gained a fullbring that they could steal. so they used tsukishima's powers, gained ichigo's trust and even affected his friends. did i get it right?

but the question is, why leave ishida unaffected? why just attack him? isn't he important enough? and why do they need to steal ichigo's fullbring? for what purpose?

but you know what? this is the first time in a while that i saw this much posts in the bleach thread. looks like a lot of people are either pissed or confused like me. lol

[rei_ayanami17]

Hoo boy! I can’t believe this!.......i never thought that all the ways I’ve been thinking will come up in this chapter. Guessing games were always and really fun for me…...but james0246 is right, good for Kubo to choose this pathway that we’ve been expecting rather than making more screwed and boring events…..

Originally Posted by Alchemist007

Hichigo should take over.

Heeee?!? but I’m thinking the opposite side where Orihime will try to heal him because she doesn’t want to see that Hichigo again. It terrifies her that’s why she proudly said to Riruka before that she’s going to heal Ichigo no matter what, even the wounds can’t worth healing anymore.

Yeah…..you can say that she was brainwashed but Tsukishima’s ability is to just insert himself and not erasing one’s existence …….Ichigo and Ishida is STILL her nakama and base on her personality, she can’t bear to see someone getting hurt especially her Kurosaki-kun!!!!!!!!!!!!!!............or else I’m going to think that she and Chad are just an annoyance out there……and yeah, the stab and cut are both worth it though…..

Darn it! Tsukishima and Ginjou are really both liars and liars really must go to hell!!
I never had any second thoughts to believe they both good from the start EVER!!, after all, they were the original SIX FULLBRINGERS and its clear that they were all enemies……but the big question here is “what is their main objective/goal in popping out and ruining Ichigo’s powerless/normal life since Ichigo is contented to be like that way in the start of this arc”…….i believe that there is a reason behind all of this especially how Ginjou know about Uruhara……hey, wait, so is that a lie too?

The shinigami badge is what bothers me right now, I can’t imagine that it can be attached to a fullbring and what is the real purpose of the badge? We’ve been told the purpose of that by soul society back then but lately we heard there the voice of Rukia and Ichigo been used it as his fullbring and now it can attached to another fullbring?

[secretzfan]

Why did I feel like I just read Death Note.........
The twist part reminds me too much of Gin. So we got the trio again
Ginjou, Tsukishima, Shishigawara
Ginjou wants Ichigo's power now... wait so he got is powers back to take it and use it as his own

[Slayerx]

Originally Posted by Lord of Pandemonium

So Ichigo would have a reason to believe his friends and family were in danger, and would be desperate to get his powers back. If there wasn't any immediate danger, Ichigo would have continued pretending he was happy being normal

Doesn't explain why Ginjo had to be the one to injure him though... are we really supposed to except that Tsukishima had no way of harming ishida without Ginjo's help? not to mention that still does not explain why he did not take the time to turn Ishida like he did everyone else when Ishida could have potentially exposed Ginjo before they enacted their plan... really if ishida got out of the hospital one day earlier he would have tracked down his attacker and exposed him

It's because they said that wanted to get rid of their "Hollow" powers. Ichigo took about 8 years to accept his hollow side.... His hollow powers were the source of much grief, and he's wished he didn't have them. He could empathize with them, wanting to get rid of their hollow powers. That and he was so thirsty to get his own powers back, that he didn't dwell on it to long. I think that at the time, they did believe that they wished to be rid of their hollow powers, thanks to Tsukishima's tampering

Ichigo took so long to except his Vizard powers because his hollow powers were capable of turning him into an uncontrollable rampaging monster that couldn't tell the difference from friend of foe.

Fullbrings up to this point have not shown a single downside to their powers. in fact some of them seemed to quite enjoy their powers... THAT is something ichigo should have noticed and questioned

[Lord of Pandemonium]

Originally Posted by lucasd

Fullbringers needs a shiinigami to take their powers
but it seems they trained Ichigo to gain fullbringing so Ginjo - the shinigami could still his fullbringing powers...

After all if there was substitute shingami badge, it would be silly to assume Ichigo was the first one to get it...

BTW at the very beginning he shoved his badge, but we assumed it was stolen from Ichigo...

Originally Posted by Langus

Fulbringers need a shinigami to take their powers... Enter the shinigami working with Urahara and Isshin. They will show up in the next chapter to steal/seal Ichigo's fullbring powers thwarting Ginjou and Tsukashima.

...I wish this wasn't so predictable.

it's not really that predicable

Yeah but we don't how much of that is true. Fullbringers said that can GIVE a Shinigami their powers. Not take....You guys are not allowed to rewrite the manga --JOKING

Ginjou told Ichigo that he can learn Fullbring because he's a Shinigami he did not say they need a Shinigami to take his powers, that's merely assumed because he had the badge Nor does that say that Ginjou is a former Shinigami luc

Originally Posted by Slayerx

Doesn't explain why Ginjo had to be the one to injure him though... are we really supposed to except that Tsukishima had no way of harming ishida without Ginjo's help? not to mention that still does not explain why he did not take the time to turn Ishida like he did everyone else when Ishida could have potentially exposed Ginjo before they enacted their plan... really if ishida got out of the hospital one day earlier he would have tracked down his attacker and exposed him

Ichigo took so long to except his Vizard powers because his hollow powers were capable of turning him into an uncontrollable rampaging monster that couldn't tell the difference from friend of foe.

Fullbrings up to this point have not shown a single downside to their powers. in fact some of them seemed to quite enjoy their powers... THAT is something ichigo should have noticed and questioned

we know that they don't show a downside, but Ichigo doesn't know that.

*Fire Marshall Bill Imitation*...Let me show something...

Spoiler for Click Me:

see that? Ichigo thought about his own struggles when Ginjou said that power was unpleasant. It is because Ichigo's powers "were capable of turning him into an uncontrollable rampaging monster that couldn't tell the difference from friend of foe."

And were a big source of grief for him, it was easy for him to believe that they wish to be rid of theirs too. It was an excuse to get him to believe them. The did a lot of recon before they approached him. Somehow they found out about his powers, and used that to manipulate him. I am assuming Tsukishima planted that idea...the idea that they wanted to be free of their hollow powers, so Ichigo would understand and they would form a brother-sisterhood of sorts.

As for Ishida, Ginjou's a bad guy, bad guys don't really need a reason to maim them. Also Ichigo hasn't contacted Ishida at all. If you look at the page, it's clearer now that Ishida was attacked from behind by some one else, he turns around and says "OH SHIT" then he's cut.

Spoiler for Clicky:

Ichigo needed a reason to want to get his powers back really badly and Ishida was used to do so. But he did in fact say that Ichigo was near the person who attacked him. He said that he stayed away from everyone in case he was their true target, and he had no information anyway--so it makes perfect sense why Ishida never told them or gave a description. He then said "BUT the situation has changed, so I want you to fix me up now"

Spoiler for Do I really have to say "Click Me"? You should know the drill by now...:

Edit: Besides it didn't matter if Ishida did expose them with Tsukishima's ability they could just change his mind...

So all in all, it's believable and Kubo provided a good explanation and he hinted that things weren't right and foreshadowed everything that was happening now, in the chapters and the chapter cover with Orihime and Riruka hugging....

[Slayerx]

Originally Posted by Lord of Pandemonium

we know that they don't show a downside, but Ichigo doesn't know that.

And my point is that Ichigo never bothered to ask. which was stupid of him.
Fullbring is clearly different than Vizard powers een if they are both related to Hollows. Ginjo said the powers were unpleasant but at no point did we or ichigo ever see WHY these powers were unpleasant. Hell the fact that ichigo was going to inherit these powers should only lead him to asking SPECIFICIALLY what makes these power unpleasant.

As for Ishida, Ginjou's a bad guy, bad guys don't really need a reason to maim them.
Also Ichigo hasn't contacted Ishida at all.

He does when he is risking exposing himself when he needs to stay under the radar. As i said, attacking Ishida himself risked himself to being exposed to ichigo... frankly he got LUCKY that ishida CHOSE to keep ichigo out of the loop. If Ishida did decide to work with Ichigo Ginjo could have been exposed and his plans ruined... Hell they also got Lucky that ishida chose not to get an instant heal which would have allowed him the chance to search for his attacker; an attacker that would not even remember attacking Ishida because he had his own memories altered. Ginjo attacking Ishida and Tsukishima not altering his memories like everyone else just left a gaping hole in their plan

in fact their doesn't seem to be ANY point at leaving ishida like that... he was a security risk and their was no point to it. It seems like the ONLY reason ishida was left unaffected was so that we could have the shock reveal that we got this chapter.


Actually another hole is why it took ishida so long for him to realize that ichigo came into contact with Ginjo... Ichigo first came in contact with him before Ishida was even attacked and has been hanging with him for days/weeks (not sure of the timeline)... and yet it wasn't until the encounter with Tsukishima that he noticed Ichigo was in contact with Ginjo

Also not sure if i can really believe Ishida's reasoning for not wanting to be healed. i mean just because he's healed does not mean he needs to keep in contact with his friends. Hell if he thought he might be the target then staying injured would only leave him helpless should his attackers return. Again, it seems like a plot device to keep ishida from interfering with the plot... though the annoying thing is that its a plot hole that could have easily been filled with Tsukishima being the only attacker using his powers to alter ishida's memories

Edit: Besides it didn't matter if Ishida did expose them with Tsukishima's ability they could just change his mind...

And the major hole in their plan was that they didn't...
They should've, but they didn't...

[christinemarie]

This chapter reminds me of Death Note plot, where Raito Yagami lose his memories of evil by abandoning the Death Note on purpose and even helped out L, and the rest follows. The villains have won hands down. I wonder who would help them out in this dire situation.

[Haak]

Originally Posted by Lord of Pandemonium

At the end Ichigo realized that he was an alright guy. Before that, he feared him. If you remember, when Ichigo asked them, why would they want to get rid of their powers. Ginjou replied that Ichigo of all people should know what having hollow powers does them. He thought about his owns struggles. What was the source of his pain? Don't you remember, when Tensa made him face his hollow because Ichigo stopped moving forward? Do you remember Shinji telling him that he had to get control over his hollow or else he'd destroy everything. His friends, his family everything he loved. Do you remember how Ichigo froze and got the shit kicked out of him because he saw Yami's Zanpakuto and mask and realized they were like him. Then he began to struggle internally and fight to keep his own hollow at bay. Do you remember how he said that the hollow was in "his head" saying shit like I am going to take over?

Do you remember his passionate declaration to Shinji? "Ore wa Shinigami!" He disavowed anything that was remotely connected to his hollow. Those powers, went out of control and he almost killed one of his friends in HM. It wasn't until he needed to learn final getsuga that he accepted his hollow powers. Remembering his own struggles with his hollow powers, made him empathize with the Fullbringers, when they said they didn't like their powers. He 'd always prayed for normalcy, except when he got it, it didn't make him happy. Because of his own struggles and his eagerness to get his powers back, so he can become the "protector". He was satisfied with their explanation..

If you'd like, I can show you the panels that clearly show his loathing of his hollows. Is that allowed? I can show you, just not now because I have to get up in less than four hours and I am not even in the bed yet because I wanted to read yaoi while everyone is asleep, so I don't subject my boo to what he calls my "man porn" :heh

No, I'm aware of all that. But this is all before he accepted his hollow powers. It shouldn't matter that much, then. In reality what he really should be doing is getting them to accept their hollow powers.

And btw I think you've got the Yammi scene wrong. He didn't freeze out of fear because he realised he was like them. He was just a little curious about it.

[Arbudurr]

So now, I see nobody else here have thought of this, but here it is.

The old Xcution led by Tsukishima was based around what the current one is; to relieve the Fullbring users of their Fullbring and give the powers to a Shinigami. Back then, they gave the powers to a Substitute Shinigami. and Tsukishima killed him. So Ginjo took the substitute Shinigami's badge.

Yes, Ichigo's badge is indeed used on his sword, and as many have said, Ginjo pulled this one out of his pocket. And then he fused it with his sword, and where I've read this chapter, Ginjo says "It's time I relieved you of your Fullbring!", AKA, mimicing the scene from the very beginning where Rukia gives her powers to Ichigo.

Basically: Ginjo took old badge, he pretends to betray Ichigo, fuses badge with his sword, stabs Ichigo to carry on the powers.

Of course, this is only speculation. But I'm pretty certain of this.

[Akashin]

Originally Posted by Lord of Pandemonium

It's not like Aizen at all. Aizen pretended to be the good guy and got rid of anyone who could see through his facade. Ginjou truly believed he was one of the good guys. He was doing what he felt was right because he believed that Tsukishima was evil incarnate and he needed to vanquish that evil. It's not really the same thing...

Right. Aizen pretended to be good (Ginjou had Tsukishima turn him good), and he removed anybody that could see through his facade (Ginjou had Tsukishima turn the rest of Xcution; not turning Ishida and risking exposing himself is, as has been said, a rather glaring plot hole). Right, not the same at all.

Oh wait--

I'm not saying it's the exact same, but there is a certain resemblance between the two besides how much Ginjou looks like Aizen.

Originally Posted by Slayerx

And my point is that Ichigo never bothered to ask. which was stupid of him.
Fullbring is clearly different than Vizard powers een if they are both related to Hollows. Ginjo said the powers were unpleasant but at no point did we or ichigo ever see WHY these powers were unpleasant. Hell the fact that ichigo was going to inherit these powers should only lead him to asking SPECIFICIALLY what makes these power unpleasant.

Also, this. It always bugged me that they drove home that Fullbring powers were unpleasant and that they wanted to be rid of them, yet Ichigo never bothered to ask why the powers he was acquiring were so unpleasant. If somebody tells me something tastes bad and then tries to feed it to me, I'm not going to be too quick to eat it.

[secretzfan]

Originally Posted by christinemarie

This chapter reminds me of Death Note plot, where Raito Yagami lose his memories of evil by abandoning the Death Note on purpose and even helped out L, and the rest follows. The villains have won hands down. I wonder who would help them out in this dire situation.

YAY I am not alone in this thought

[Akashin]

While you definitely aren't alone, it appears I am; while I see where people are drawing the comparison, I didn't actually think of it as borrowing from Death Note (in fact I didn't even think of Death Note) until I noticed other people drawing that comparison. Doesn't make the comparison any less true, though. <_<

[rei_ayanami17]

Originally Posted by Slayerx

And my point is that Ichigo never bothered to ask. which was stupid of him.
Fullbring is clearly different than Vizard powers een if they are both related to Hollows. Ginjo said the powers were unpleasant but at no point did we or ichigo ever see WHY these powers were unpleasant. Hell the fact that ichigo was going to inherit these powers should only lead him to asking SPECIFICIALLY what makes these power unpleasant.


He does when he is risking exposing himself when he needs to stay under the radar. As i said, attacking Ishida himself risked himself to being exposed to ichigo... frankly he got LUCKY that ishida CHOSE to keep ichigo out of the loop. If Ishida did decide to work with Ichigo Ginjo could have been exposed and his plans ruined... Hell they also got Lucky that ishida chose not to get an instant heal which would have allowed him the chance to search for his attacker; an attacker that would not even remember attacking Ishida because he had his own memories altered. Ginjo attacking Ishida and Tsukishima not altering his memories like everyone else just left a gaping hole in their plan

in fact their doesn't seem to be ANY point at leaving ishida like that... he was a security risk and their was no point to it. It seems like the ONLY reason ishida was left unaffected was so that we could have the shock reveal that we got this chapter.


Actually another hole is why it took ishida so long for him to realize that ichigo came into contact with Ginjo... Ichigo first came in contact with him before Ishida was even attacked and has been hanging with him for days/weeks (not sure of the timeline)... and yet it wasn't until the encounter with Tsukishima that he noticed Ichigo was in contact with Ginjo

Also not sure if i can really believe Ishida's reasoning for not wanting to be healed. i mean just because he's healed does not mean he needs to keep in contact with his friends. Hell if he thought he might be the target then staying injured would only leave him helpless should his attackers return. Again, it seems like a plot device to keep ishida from interfering with the plot... though the annoying thing is that its a plot hole that could have easily been filled with Tsukishima being the only attacker using his powers to alter ishida's memories


And the major hole in their plan was that they didn't...
They should've, but they didn't...

I absolutely agree. This just proved how worthless Ishida is.

And actually, let’s not put all the blame to Ishida. All of them had mistakes here. Ichigo is really stupid and idiot in giving his trust to them and even Chad….(I wonder how they persuade Chad to join their Xcution?)…..Ginjou try to make doubt before to Ichigo where he said to him about Uruhara but Ichigo, being so dumb and stupid, rather choose to believe the stranger and not even try to confirm it to the right person involved.

It’s because everyone is lying from the start of this arc that’s why it became worst as it is and now, they’re just all fall to enemy’s trap – zero hope? Huh? – not a chance!

[Kyero Fox]

Tsu used his power to turn ginjuro into a good guy to trick ichigo.

[Casshern]

Two things really bothered me about this chapter.

First, I'm disappointed that Ishida went down so fast. I know he's a small fry but come on, his cool moment was curb-stomped while it was only 73% complete. At least let him have his cool moment before reminding us that everyone in this series who isn't called Ichigo or Aizen is irrelevant.

Second, without Orihime screaming Kurosaki-kun every time Ichigo get's fatally wounded (several times per chapter) it feels like there's something missing. I don't like it one bit. Orihime is one of my favorite characters and I sense that she is losing her role in this series.

Other than that it was ok. Pretty decent. A bit boring though, with all those twists. One day Kubo should pull a real twist and write an arc that has no twist.