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Old 2016-06-22, 15:07   Link #41
Tenzen12
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
They TOLD you why they fight. They had no reason to lie. They declared war, and they told us on that moment why they did so. Why is their own words not good enough?



Their manifesto that they announced on the day they declared war is literally imperialistic. Are you going to ignore their own official announcements?
Their announcement about them kicking out Terrans out of cluster ? No I have no reason to ignore It also don't have any reason project any personal bias into it either. That's difference between two of us.
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Old 2016-06-22, 15:36   Link #42
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I don't feel particularly sorry for Wind and the NUN for getting into it, but I do feel sorry for the poor, innocent folks caught in the crossfire.

And at this point, its not the NUN killing them, its the Wind.

- Tak
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Old 2016-06-22, 15:49   Link #43
Kazu-kun
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
They TOLD you why they fight. They had no reason to lie. They declared war, and they told us on that moment why they did so. Why is their own words not good enough?
And they never said anything about territorial expansion. That's just your theory, and doesn't have much basis really.

What they did say is that they're trying to liberate the cluster from NUNS. Although there's probably more to it than that. The "heirs of the Protoculture" thing is just propaganda. Keith made it pretty clear they don't give a damn about that.
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Old 2016-06-22, 15:57   Link #44
Tak
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And they never said anything about territorial expansion. That's just your theory, and doesn't have much basis really.
Except they are expanding. They've not declared an outright expansion, but they have indeed invaded and occupied sovereign territories where the inhabitants did not ask to be liberated.

- Tak
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Old 2016-06-22, 16:02   Link #45
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Except they are expanding. They've not declared an outright expansion, but they have indeed invaded and occupied sovereign territories where the inhabitants did not ask to be liberated.

- Tak
Correct me if I am wrong but as far as I understood, it is their main goal to secure all planets within the Brisingr Cluster. This would mean the old borders of the windermere Kingdom, prior to the emigration of the Macross fleets.
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Old 2016-06-22, 16:07   Link #46
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Correct me if I am wrong but as far as I understood, it is their main goal to secure all planets within the Brisingr Cluster. This would mean the old borders of the windermere Kingdom, prior to the emigration of the Macross fleets.
Were they a space faring people prior to meeting the NUN?

- Tak
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Old 2016-06-22, 16:33   Link #47
Father Hentai
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Were they a space faring people prior to meeting the NUN?

- Tak
Well, Humans with Macross Fleet were at least.
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Old 2016-06-22, 16:40   Link #48
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Well, Humans with Macross Fleet were at least.
The point is, how is the Wind supposed to justify 'restoring their borders' by invading other planets (inhabited by different races) when their borders consist of the distance between their planetary surface and immedite atmosphere?

- Tak
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Old 2016-06-22, 16:43   Link #49
azarhal
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Were they a space faring people prior to meeting the NUN?

- Tak
Their tech level outside the nobles/Aerial Knight stuff (which we know is from anti-NUN) is basically still the equivalent of the Middle Age, they don't even bother fixing their buildings on top of it.

Magazines interviews says that before NUN they used animals for transports and they knew nothing about species living more then 30 years and neither Ragnans or Catpeople were said to be short lived species so if Windermere ruled the cluster they were pretty clueless about who lived there.

There is nothing in the show that even suggest that were aware what a solar system was prior to NUN arriving there around 40 years ago.
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Old 2016-06-22, 17:04   Link #50
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That was a rhetorical question, sort of. Anyway, I translated part of the said magazine article, and would find claims to 'restore' borders through Wind's invasion of half-dozen planets somewhat... funny.

- Tak
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Old 2016-06-22, 17:39   Link #51
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Originally Posted by Tak View Post
That was a rhetorical question, sort of. Anyway, I translated part of the said magazine article, and would find claims to 'restore' borders through Wind's invasion of half-dozen planets somewhat... funny.

- Tak
It's not funny if it works. After all, it seems multiple people in this forum are under the impression that Windermere actually had planetary claims of worlds they never even knew existed 30 years ago. I would call it naivety, except in real life this happens all the time. As an example, China is currently trying to argue that it owns a particular piece of the ocean because of texts in some old book uncovered in a farmhouse.

You try and put that in an anime, people would laugh at you. Compare to that, convincing people that you deserve to own planets that were your birthright when your parents weren't even capable of space travel, is easy.

It is a lie, but why does it matter if people believe it anyway, and you can brainwash anyone who disagree with you into killing each other?
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Old 2016-06-22, 17:49   Link #52
azarhal
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
It's not funny if it works. After all, it seems multiple people in this forum are under the impression that Windermere actually had planetary claims of worlds they never even knew existed 30 years ago. I would call it naivety, except in real life this happens all the time. As an example, China is currently trying to argue that it owns a particular piece of the ocean because of texts in some old book uncovered in a farmhouse.
What's wrong with forging documents to claim landmass? I've done it all the time in Crusader King 2 (and friends).
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Old 2016-06-22, 18:10   Link #53
karice67
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Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
Perhaps you should focus a little less in real-life history and a little more in Macross history. Also pay attention to Delta's side material too, and what the show itself says about the characters.
To be frank, a lot of people are getting real-life history 'wrong' too when they've tried to talk about it in this forum. Or at the very least, they're basing what they write on what the dominant, simplified representation of it from the victors' perspective, without any reference to the highly contentious debate about WW2 in Japan itself.

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Originally Posted by azarhal View Post
What's wrong with forging documents to claim landmass? I've done it all the time in Crusader King 2 (and friends).
And for a great real-life example, check out what the British and the Americans did in Diego Garcia.
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Old 2016-06-22, 19:13   Link #54
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Windermere's top civilian and military people have said plenty about why they're waging this war. And with the exception of some internal disagreements, what they've said has been very consistent, over multiple episodes. They have also been consistent in multiple contexts - Formal declaration to all, informal answer to a presumed traitor and two enemies, formal declaration to all Windermereans (but only Windermereans, other than one allied earthling), informal private discussion among themselves. Here are those quotes:

“Children of the Protoculture! We, the Windermere Kingdom, hereby declare war on the New United Government! Forty years ago, the New United Government reached out to us Windermereans. However, under their cooperative guise hid true evil. They crafted a profoundly unequal treaty and sought to monopolize all profits. Having struggled for many long decades, we rose up against the foe seven years ago and successfully took back our mother sky. Nevertheless, as long as they exist in this Brisingr Globular Cluster, we may never find true peace! Rise and spread your wings to freedom!” - Chancellor Roid, Episode 5

“We fight for the great goal of establishing the Starwind sector and emancipating the planets of the Brisingr cluster. We're liberating the people who have been annexed by the Unified Government.” - Aerial Knight Bogue, Episode 8

“They took everything from Windermere on that day. Our wind. Our lives. Our pride. That shameful day our land was scarred. But the days of shame will soon be over. Today, we mobilize all our forces to annihilate the earthlings and those allied with them. We will retake all the ruins and secure the Starwind sector. We, the true inheritors of the Protoculture, shall free the globular cluster! May the wind grant us glory!” - King Gramia, Episode 11

“As long as we have the ruins and this ship, we have a valid claim to being the heirs of the Protoculture. We can negotiate with the NUNs on equal terms.” - Chancellor Roid, Episode 12

“They don't give a damn about the Protoculture. ...I'll fight until the very end, even if I have to eradicate all earthlings in the cluster by myself.” - Aerial Knight Keith, Episode 12.


Now, are these quotes also consistent with Windermere's actions? With one notable exception that I'll get to later: Yes, they are! So their statements are consistent, in multiple contexts, across their top leadership and their elite soldiers. And those statements are almost entirely consistent with their actions. So here's a wild idea: Maybe we should simply take them at their words?

So, judging by their words, these appear to be their motivations:

1. Revenge.

2. Restoring their wounded sense of honor.

3. Completely ridding the Brisignr Cluster of the presence of NUNs or Earthlings. Though Roid perhaps could be negotiated into something less extreme.

4. Strong hints of racial supremacist thinking. Both Roid and Gramia speak to being the heirs of the Protoculture. Keith doesn't seem to care as much about that, but he also seems to be very hard-line on getting rid of all Earthlings.

5. Territorial conquest. A logical necessity if they truly do wish to rid the Cluster of all earthlings, and also consistent between Bogue's quote and Gramia's declaration to his people. This is also consistent with their actual actions of conquering multiple planets. There is now every reason to believe that Windermere wants to conquer the entire Brisignr Cluster. One can perhaps be hopeful that they would be benevolent rulers, but I don't see much reason to doubt that they do in fact want to rule.

There's a sixth motivation, going by their words, and that's "liberating" other planets in the Brisignr Cluster. However, this is the one area where their actions obviously contradict their words. Conquering alien planets, and through the use of widespread mind control (i.e. Var) is obviously the very opposite of "liberating".


So, there you have it. There are their five motivations.

Put simply: Revenge, Honor, Removing all earthlings, for the Glory of their people, and Conquest.

Some care more about "revenge" than "glory of their people", and some are the opposite, but broadly-speaking, these are the 5 motivations of Windermere.

Now, let's use an analogy - If Britian's Queen, Britian's Prime Minister, and two of Britian's most famous top soldiers, were all basically in agreement over why Britian was waging a particular war, and their military actions were largely consistent with their reasons given, would you or would you not take them at their words? Personally, I think it makes sense to take them at their words. Sure, Windermere is prettying it up some for public consumption, but they do seem to really mean it. If they're hiding some secret motivation, in all of these contexts, from all of these people, one really has to ask - Why?

Until given good reason to think otherwise, I'm going to take Windermere at their words. And going by their words, I don't find them particularly sympathetic. I don't doubt they were mistreated some by NUNs, but that doesn't justify what they've done, particularly to worlds that probably had minimal if any involvement in Windermere's war of independence.
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Old 2016-06-22, 19:28   Link #55
Father Hentai
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The point is, how is the Wind supposed to justify 'restoring their borders' by invading other planets (inhabited by different races) when their borders consist of the distance between their planetary surface and immedite atmosphere?

- Tak
They just reclaim what has been part of their Kingdom borders or convince others to rejoin them. It's the same as Russia annexion of the Krim.
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Old 2016-06-22, 19:35   Link #56
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But the days of shame will soon be over. Today, we mobilize all our forces to annihilate the earthlings and those allied with them. We will retake all the ruins and secure the Starwind sector. We, the true inheritors of the Protoculture, shall free the globular cluster! May the wind grant us glory!” - King Gramia, Episode 11
I am not sure if annihilate is the best word translation here. Since it is an official speech of the current windermere King, this would make him guilty of murdering civilian.

Sure that this is correct or should the correct translation be "to drive out/exile the earthlings?
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Old 2016-06-22, 19:48   Link #57
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I am not sure if annihilate is the best word translation here. Since it is an official speech of the current windermere King, this would make him guilty of murdering civilian.

Sure that this is correct or should the correct translation be "to drive out/exile the earthlings?
Well, for all of these quotes, I'm just going by what I read for the subbed episodes I watched. So I'm open to people pointing out translation errors.

I don't know if Gramia, Roid, Keith, etc... want to kill every last earthling or not. My personal impression is that they'd be satisfied with ridding the Brisignr Cluster of all earthlings, even if that mainly means just forcing earthlings (humans?) to abandon the cluster and flee to other places in the universe. I don't think the Windermereans are insanely blood-thirsty, although their desire for revenge means that they're probably going to enjoy what kills they do get.
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Old 2016-06-22, 19:55   Link #58
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
There's a sixth motivation, going by their words, and that's "liberating" other planets in the Brisignr Cluster. However, this is the one area where their actions obviously contradict their words. Conquering alien planets, and through the use of widespread mind control (i.e. Var) is obviously the very opposite of "liberating".
I have nothing more to say on the rest of your post at the moment, but on this, here's my problem with what you have written.

When we talk about the 'motivations' of an actor, we should be talking about them in terms of how they think, not in terms of how we interpret their actions. If they truly believe that they are liberating the cluster from influence/domination by NUN, then what we think of their methods for doing so does not matter in this regard. It's their reasoning behind their aims and methods that matters.

I'm not saying that you can't judge Windermere for their actions and argue that they're not justified, based on your own moral values. However, if you want to understand their motivations, then you have to understand what they mean by 'liberating', not what you mean by 'liberating'.

So what are Windermere trying to liberate the cluster from, and, more importantly, WHY? The hints have been given in the show, and exactly what was destroyed by the dimension eater on Windermere seems to be key.
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Old 2016-06-22, 20:33   Link #59
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I might reply to karice's latest post later on, but for now, I wanted to share some different thoughts. Something that occurred to me after piecing all of those quotes together.

While I don't find Windermere particularly sympathetic, I do think they're well-written. Kawamori and Nemoto deserve credit for how consistent Windermere's top people are. And I also think their internal disagreements make a lot of sense considering the roles and backgrounds of the people involved.

Roid is his people's top government official (Gramia being actual royalty). Keith is his people's top soldier.

It makes a lot of sense for the top government official to care more about things like image, and prestige, and negotiation leverage, and public perception. So Roid focuses a lot on the sorts of things that glamorize the Windermere war effort, and adds the sort of pretext to it that politicians love to have.

As a soldier, Keith's motivations are less flamboyant and more straightforward. Like many soldiers, he is motivated by the losses he has endured, and he wants to make the enemy pay for what they've done. He doesn't necessary care much about the politicians' lofty pretexts.
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Old 2016-06-22, 20:33   Link #60
Tak
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They just reclaim what has been part of their Kingdom borders or convince others to rejoin them. It's the same as Russia annexion of the Krim.
Except there is nothing to reclaim or rejoin, because none of the planets they have invaded had been part of the Wind, ever. That planet we call Windermere and the people who dwell upon it thought they were alone. They were 800 light years away from where all the action is taking place right now.

- Tak
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