(L) Kokoro Connect [anime]

[Blonto]

Originally Posted by Qilin

I confess that I might have let my dislike of his character influence my interpretation, but he's simply a character I can't ever come to terms with. So far, it helps that Tachi's "selflessness" is portrayed as something pathological, but with just that to go on, his character is still impossible for me to empathize with. We're going to need much more substance to it if he is to be seen as a human character.

Eh, I don't see any reason to hate Taichi. I can be just as interested in a good character as I can in darker ones, as long as they're portrayed as complex or conflicted, anything that doesn't make me think they're just another copy out of the overused bag of male leads. For that reason I'm not too interested in Taichi, because for now he's still way to similar to hundreds of other male leads, but at least they're trying to give a new spin to the whole "white knight" character, even if they make him follow the role too closely at times. Actually all the characters are pretty archetypical, but they're handled in a way that doesn't make them clichéd.

Originally Posted by Qilin

Obviously, it only represents a part of the person's actual feelings, but why should that have to mean that such things can just be dismissed?

I didn't say dismissed but that "an emotional outburst is only a part of how a person truly feels and it doesn't necessarily hold true in its entirety". Think of when people say they hate eachother when they get angry. That may hold true at that moment, but emotions regain their complexity in a calmer state of mind. That doesn't mean they don't hate anything about the person, just that the current emphasized emotion overshadowed other feelings.

[Qilin]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

So I’m not dismissing emotion as the integral part, but emotion is just one ingredient to make human mind’s products. Thus, emotion alone does not necessarily represent how good or bad a person is. Much like your lower body can’t represent your entire physical figure. We have to consider the entirety.

You misunderstand me. I'm not using Taichi emotional outburst as representative of his overall personality. Rather, I'm saying that the weakening of the cognitive restraints surrounding his psyche is a prime opportunity to reveal aspects of himself that are not readily apparent.

Originally Posted by Blonto

Eh, I don't see any reason to hate Taichi. I can be just as interested in a good character as I can in darker ones, as long as they're portrayed as complex or conflicted, anything that doesn't make me think they're just another copy out of the overused bag of male leads. For that reason I'm not too interested in Taichi, because for now he's still way to similar to hundreds of other male leads, but at least they're trying to give a new spin to the whole "white knight" character, even if they make him follow the role too closely at times. Actually all the characters are pretty archetypical, but they're handled in a way that doesn't make them clichéd.

Well, yeah. I agree that this show deconstructs the archetypes pretty well, setting aside the questionable writing choices. But my dislike of Taichi's character is more personal than anything. His personality is difficult to empathize with, but I'm hoping that the effect was intentional. That said, he's already leagues better than the typical harem lead despite my feelings.

Originally Posted by Blonto

I didn't say dismissed but that "an emotional outburst is only a part of how a person truly feels and it doesn't necessarily hold true in its entirety". Think of when people say they hate eachother when they get angry. That may hold true at that moment, but emotions regain their complexity in a calmer state of mind. That doesn't mean they don't hate anything about the person, just that the current emphasized emotion overshadowed other feelings.

I'd argue that emotions in themselves aren't all that complex. The complexity only comes when it interacts with reason, which often leads to conflicts between the two, which in turn induces drama. That said, I agree emotions tend to be fluid and impulsive, but there is still much to be gleaned from them.

[Arya]

I woundn't compare Taichi with a standard MC. I mean, usually when MC take action things get solved in a way or another. In Taichi case nothing is solved.

Iori is still using the multiple Iori versions she learned to play. Nothing IIRC hinted to any sort of slightest recovery.

Yui was his best result, but her first id moment showed how long her road is.

Hime relied on Taichi words (thanks to her feeling for him and not for him having whitenight'd her), but Taichi outburst burned everything he gained and more.

All in all what Taichi is good at is not in white-nighting people, but in relating with them. At first it seems to sort the same effect but not in the long run. Adding that people who relate with him will invest on him, putting him in the situation of maintain what he built with them.
Sooner or later he will face that. And his outburst is a sign of that.

On a side note, the only difference I see from Taichi and Inaban id moments is that Inaban argumentation was flawless (as them usually are, probably that's why I'm being indulgent with her abuses), Taichi not. Another hint that he is going in the "right" direction
But what I like to see is him teared apart by having to choose between Iori and Inaban.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Qilin

You misunderstand me. I'm not using Taichi emotional outburst as representative of his overall personality. Rather, I'm saying that the weakening of the cognitive restraints surrounding his psyche is a prime opportunity to reveal aspects of himself that are not readily apparent.

It’s totally fine if what you’re looking for is Taichi’s hidden aspects of his personality. Still, this post from you:

Originally Posted by Qilin

Still, I thought it was pretty clear that the very reason for Himeko's reluctance was for Yui's sake, so Taichi's reaction (or if you're a stickler for details, his impulse to react) was unwarranted. It could at least indicate some dire insensitivity on his part.

at least implied that you already consider Taichi’s Id mode’s behaviour as normal behaviour (when he has both emotion & reason). That’s why I said to you “....but emotion is just one ingredient to make human mind’s products.” Thus, Taichi’s outburst is an “incomplete product” of his mind. Still, according to your post, it looks like you consider it as a “complete product” of Taichi’s mind by calling it unwarranted for him to do so when the outburst itself is pretty much an “accident”.

Note: as an addition, I don't think Inaba is being quite clear to Taichi about her motive in abandoning her friends (intentionally or not). So, as Blonto said, Taichi got the wrong impression. Hence his negative reaction (not so much insensitive).

[Klashikari]

What shocked me with Taichi's speech was more the words he used, rather than the reasons why he is lashing on Himeko.
The subs don't really show the extent of what Taichi said (considering how clunky it would be in English), but I think the point should be addressed:

稲葉がその程度の人間だなんて思うなかった。

Literally, Taichi said something like "I didn't think/expect you to be a human of such level". Unless I'm mistaken, "その程度の人間" has a very strong derogatory vibe that is more than just "blunt". The fact he used 人間　(human) instead of 人 (person) is quite something (pointing the living being instead of the individual).
It basically put the person in another "category of human", which is more than just saying someone isn't sharing the same view, or being "inferior": it places them in an outright different league (emphasis with その, making the gap between them "bigger" than with この), and sometimes can be taken as "not human", if you pick extreme cases. The "なんて" part also adds the context that "you didn't expect that", as if the asserted point (that Himeko would be such person to abandon her friends) never crossed your mind.
That kind of expression is quite insensitive, considering you simply put a standard on yourself (as human) and that the person in front of you literally fails to meet these, or if you want to look at the other way, that you can't recognize the person in front of you as the same "human" as you are.

I know that Taichi was under the effect of the "desire unleashed" issue, but the way how Taichi has "expectations" for Himeko (and prolly for others) shows how much Taichi isn't really normal. At this point, I agree with people that Taichi's selfless righteousness will be a major issue in the future, leading to either self destruction, or putting people on a weird piedestal until they "disappoint" him.

[Sumeragi]

It's Himeko (姫子).

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

What shocked me with Taichi's speech was more the words he used, rather than the reasons why he is lashing on Himeko.
The subs don't really show the extent of what Taichi said (considering how clunky it would be in English), but I think the point should be addressed:
Literally, Taichi said something like "I didn't think/expect you to be a human of such level". Unless I'm mistaken, "その程度の人間" has a very strong derogatory vibe that is more than just "blunt". The fact he used 人間　(human) instead of 人 (person) is quite something (pointing the living being instead of the individual).
It basically put the person in another "category of human", which is more than just saying someone isn't sharing the same view, or being "inferior": it places them in an outright different league (emphasis with その, making the gap between them "bigger" than with この), and sometimes can be taken as "not human", if you pick extreme cases. The "なんて" part also adds the context that "you didn't expect that", as if the asserted point (that Himeko would be such person to abandon her friends) never crossed your mind.
That kind of expression is quite insensitive, considering you simply put a standard on yourself (as human) and that the person in front of you literally fails to meet these, or if you want to look at the other way, that you can't recognize the person in front of you as the same "human" as you are.

Wow, I didn't know that . Damn, so much for relying on subs.

[ThereminVox]

Originally Posted by Blonto

I said before that this "true desire" thing seems to be a mixture of general and situational feelings. The way I see it, just because someone says how they feel doesn't mean these feelings are identical when they go through all the mental filters and rational thinking. People don't think straight when they get overly emotional, they let one emotion take control of them. I'd say in such cases an emotional outburst is only a part of how a person truly feels and it doesn't necessarily hold true in its entirety.

Yup. That's why it's important not to mistake this gimmick as a kind of truth serum. They're only acting on a small sample of their desires, and we don't even know for certain that Heartseed isn't cherry-picking the results.

Acting on a specific impulse or emotion may not take into account everything else roiling around inside you. Working through all of those impulses is what allows us to develop socially.

In a way, the results are oddly Orwellian. The gimmick kind of forces them to be careful what they think, because thinking can literally be dangerous. Thought-crime becomes crime without notice. Two relatively harmless, completely ordinary impulses in episode 6 suddenly became two different instances of assault: physical and sexual. That's a lot of pressure to be under.

[Kenju of the Right]

Originally Posted by Arya

On a side note, the only difference I see from Taichi and Inaban id moments is that Inaban argumentation was flawless (as them usually are, probably that's why I'm being indulgent with her abuses)

I wouldn't say flawless, Yui is even more shut in now because of what Inaba said.(although it was a released impulse)

[Hiroi Sekai]

This show fascinates me. It doesn't really overplay anything, but it sort of fools you at the start by thinking the protagonists are all happy-go-lucky best buds. As it progresses and the incidents occur, there's a quick switch to anything from mild anger to complete animosity between them. It's interesting because it shows that they've never fully agreed with each other in the first place.

What I like most about this is that it feels mostly human. Sure, some of the characters do some ridiculous things, but it's only to give them their own personalities. It's one big story where they need to move forward together, but even their own minds are keeping them from doing so. The endings do a really good job of tying into the episodes themselves too- I love when they do that, like in AnoHana or Durarara!! (OP).

I'm very interested in seeing how things start to play out for Inaba. That silent moment at the train station speaks huge volumes, so it's safe to say that ANYTHING could happen at this point.

[Snuffle]

Originally Posted by papermario13689

I'm very interested in seeing how things start to play out for Inaba. That silent moment at the train station speaks huge volumes, so it's safe to say that ANYTHING could happen at this point.

I'm expecting or maybe even hoping the shock Taichi gave Inaba will make her consider changing the way she treats people. It's no secret she has feelings for him, but since Iori is already in the picture, she might not try very hard to recover her position on Taichi's favorable side.

The thing I'm most interested in seeing though is what the whole argument Taichi and Aoki are having is about. It would be great if it was a double inner feelings released event.

[Shimapan]

Originally Posted by Qilin

The way I saw it, Taichi really crossed the line once he began imposing his own to beliefs onto to Himeko in that one scene. It's all well and good if he wants to kill himself for the sake of someone else, but if he expects others to make the same sacrifices he makes, then there is something seriously wrong with him.

Yes, Taichi *did* really cross the line. Not so much by expecting Inaban to be just as extremely selfless as he is - where he should know very well by now that she isn't, and why she isn't.
The point is, he's losing his temper because of HS' intervention and yells at her. The point is, he comes to his senses again and realises *that* he yelled at her and went much too far, and that he did really hurt her by what he said. His reaction to that? He does *nthing*. No apologies, no trying to make up things again, nothing! *That* makes him an insensitive jerk. It's as if he's thinking, "So I just really hurt Inaba by going to far. So what? Who gives a damn? I don't like her anyway."

Originally Posted by Qilin

Let me clarify, I was not judging how Taichi acted in that single situation, but rather the undesirable aspects of his character that were exposed in the scene in question, including any hidden thoughts that he would not express otherwise.

Thoughts of the like which I wrote above. Quite undesirable traits indeed.

Originally Posted by Qilin

Mind you, I'm not judging Taichi's personality here, but the way he condemned Himeko for just acting the way she did was a glimpse into a darker side of his psyche. Don't get me wrong. I actually like this development since it hints at something interesting behind that white knight facade of his.

It gets just all the more likely every time now that behind his white knight obsession, there's a deep, dark abyss.

Originally Posted by Qilin

Still, I thought it was pretty clear that the very reason for Himeko's reluctance was for Yui's sake, so Taichi's reaction (or if you're a stickler for details, his impulse to react) was unwarranted. It could at least indicate some dire insensitivity on his part.

Certainly insensitivity, as I said already, and unwarranted, too. That's certainly a dark side of Taichi that's coming to light there, and I bet we've so far only seen the tip of the iceberg, with many more to come still.

Originally Posted by Klashikari

What shocked me with Taichi's speech was more the words he used, rather than the reasons why he is lashing on Himeko.
The subs don't really show the extent of what Taichi said (considering how clunky it would be in English), but I think the point should be addressed:
Literally, Taichi said something like "I didn't think/expect you to be a human of such level". Unless I'm mistaken, "その程度の人間" has a very strong derogatory vibe that is more than just "blunt". The fact he used 人間　(human) instead of 人 (person) is quite something (pointing the living being instead of the individual).
It basically put the person in another "category of human", which is more than just saying someone isn't sharing the same view, or being "inferior": it places them in an outright different league (emphasis with その, making the gap between them "bigger" than with この), and sometimes can be taken as "not human", if you pick extreme cases. The "なんて" part also adds the context that "you didn't expect that", as if the asserted point (that Himeko would be such person to abandon her friends) never crossed your mind.
That kind of expression is quite insensitive, considering you simply put a standard on yourself (as human) and that the person in front of you literally fails to meet these, or if you want to look at the other way, that you can't recognize the person in front of you as the same "human" as you are.

Indeed, the way in which he adressed Inaba was quite insensitive as well, downright rude.

Originally Posted by Klashikari

I know that Taichi was under the effect of the "desire unleashed" issue, but the way how Taichi has "expectations" for Himeko (and prolly for others) shows how much Taichi isn't really normal. At this point, I agree with people that Taichi's selfless righteousness will be a major issue in the future, leading to either self destruction, or putting people on a weird piedestal until they "disappoint" him.

By now he should know Inaban well enough, but that he still has such warped expectations of her already shows that he has serious issues. Expecting other people to be like him, even though he ought to know better, and then getting abrasive when they still don't act like he wants them to act... there's a very dark side to his personality indeed, which now slowly becomes visible.

[Hiroi Sekai]

Originally Posted by Snuffle

I'm expecting or maybe even hoping the shock Taichi gave Inaba will make her consider changing the way she treats people. It's no secret she has feelings for him, but since Iori is already in the picture, she might not try very hard to recover her position on Taichi's favorable side.

The most thing I'm most interested in seeing though is what the whole argument Taichi and Aoki are having is about. It would be great if it was a double inner feelings released event.

To be very honest, I even contemplated a potential for suicide. It's a terribly dark thought, but I definitely had it.

I predict a more accurate occurrence would be that Inaba ends up getting in between Iori and Taichi. Since they're keeping things as is for now, the fact that their impulses are acting out might cause some serious problems.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Shimapan

Yes, Taichi *did* really cross the line.

No, he didn't.

Taichi didn't apologize because an apology would have actually been insulting to Inaba's intelligence. Inaba had a similar Id Moment when she talked down Yui. After Inaba apologized for it, Yui said to her "But what you said is what you really mean, isn't it?" (or something to that extent). Inaba never corrected that because Yui was right, and both her and Inaba knew it. And now both Taichi and Inaba know that, at some level at least, Taichi meant what he said.

Taichi apologizing for it (at least him doing so right away) would have been literally adding insult to injury.


I think that you're being too hard on Taichi. I think that you and perhaps some other posters as well are exaggerating his issues.

Originally Posted by Shimapan

Indeed, the way in which he adressed Inaba was quite insensitive as well, downright rude.

And Inaba is frequently rude to him. Without needing to have Id Moments to bring it out of her.

[Qilin]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

That’s why I said to you “....but emotion is just one ingredient to make human mind’s products.” Thus, Taichi’s outburst is an “incomplete product” of his mind. Still, according to your post, it looks like you consider it as a “complete product” of Taichi’s mind by calling it unwarranted for him to do so when the outburst itself is pretty much an “accident”.

Please. By calling it an "accident" you're already undervaluing the role of emotion in forming the identity. It's even worse if people don't take responsibility for their own emotions. It seems to me that there's something of a double standard at work here. But I guess it's a natural reaction given that emotions are usually suppressed or controlled by reason, which means that they aren't that visible most of the time.

The id, while impulsive and unreliable, is still representative of the person to an extent. In fact, it says a lot about a person just looking at it head on without the obstructive ego to restrain it.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

No, he didn't.

Taichi didn't apologize because an apology would have actually been insulting to Inaba's intelligence. Inaba had a similar Id Moment when she talked down Yui. After Inaba apologized for it, Yui said to her "But what you said is what you really mean, isn't it?" (or something to that extent). Inaba never corrected that because Yui was right, and both her and Inaba knew it. And now both Taichi and Inaba know that, at some level at least, Taichi meant what he said.

Taichi apologizing for it (at least him doing so right away) would have been literally adding insult to injury.


I think that you're being too hard on Taichi. I think that you and perhaps some other posters as well are exaggerating his issues.

His issues are a bit (not entirely) of an informed flaw right now. And I don't blame him for being judgmental of Inaba, or for his id moment letting that judgment to the surface.

But it does annoy me how blind to her suffering he seems, especially compared to his sensitivity to Yui's and Iori's.

(But then, I'm probably biased myself.)

Originally Posted by Qilin

Please. By calling it an "accident" you're already undervaluing the role of emotion in forming the identity. It's even worse if people don't take responsibility for their own emotions.

And normally, why should they? Emotions just are. We don't decide to have them. It's our responsibility to control ourselves so we don't brain people with golf trophies, but mere thoughts and emotions shouldn't be a crime.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

His issues are a bit (not entirely) of an informed flaw right now. And I don't blame him for being judgmental of Inaba, or for his id moment letting that judgment to the surface.

But it does annoy me how blind to her suffering he seems, especially compared to his sensitivity to Yui's and Iori's.

(But then, I'm probably biased myself.)

I do see what you're saying about how Taichi seems a bit more caring of Yui and Iori than he is towards Inaba. He also seems to expect more of Inaba than he does of Yui and Iori.

I agree that it's not quite fair (especially the differing expectation levels). But there are times when I think that Taichi is actually a bit intimidated by Inaba, and might find it easier to relax and be himself around Iori (and probably Yui as well to a lesser extent).

[Arya]

Originally Posted by Kenju of the Right

I wouldn't say flawless, Yui is even more shut in now because of what Inaba said.(although it was a released impulse)

Yes, but I was speaking of the argumentation, not the outcome. I avoided deliberately any judgment on the way they expressed their thoughts or the outcome because, well because that's something out of their control. But the content of what they said was in their control. That was something they were actually thinking.
What Inaban said, analyzing it out of grimmick's context, is something reasonable, right, as I said, flawless. In another situation, without the grimmick in action, if Inaba had explained the same identical thing with the same identical words the outcome probably would have been different.
Taichi's on the contrary wasn't. What he imputed to her is quite questionable, if not totally wrong, because first she wasn't giving up on Yui, and second his conclusion ended being harshly judgmental on Inaban as a person.
And I wasn't aware back then of what he really said (and that thanks to Klashikari now I know )

So it shows what there is deep down each of the two friends. Inaban was simply frustrated (now I don't know, poor Hime), Taichi instead hides something more dark that, if you let it be, it blinds his reason. That was what I meant speaking of the "right" direction he was going.

[relentlessflame]

I'm not sure that I can explain this well, but I just wanted to throw one thing into the mix.

I think that an outburst of emotion doesn't even represent all of our emotions, let alone our thoughts.

Like, I've gotten into some really heated arguments with my parents (particularly when I was a teenager), and some words were said. But even though I really did mean what I said at the time in most cases (sometimes exaggerated a bit for effect...) it wasn't all I felt. My decision to normally not say those things is not just because of rational thought, but also because of other feelings. Feelings like love, compassion, empathy, and on and on. When you lose control of your emotions, it's not just that you stop thinking, it's that you let certain emotions (the more passionate ones) override other ones. And that's why you "feel badly" afterwards. Not just because your brain says "I shouldn't have done that; that person will be offended", but because your other emotions take over.

Taichi said something really hurtful to Himeko, and he may very well have meant it, but I don't think what he said is the only thing he thinks or feels about her. Coming to terms with these many conflicting emotions is what our brain helps us to do, and what is difficult for them to do under these circumstances.

[Snuffle]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

But it does annoy me how blind to her suffering he seems, especially compared to his sensitivity to Yui's and Iori's.

Nobody can blame Taichi or anyone for that matter for not noticing that Inaba is suffering. She tries pretty damn hard to hide it, not even Iori who is closer to her (although distracted atm with love and the whole gimmick) notices how Inaba is feeling.