2012-02-26, 17:15 | Link #161 | ||||
Strangely dependable...
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: some random place out there...
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Yes, I simply did make the assumption to discount Kubodera's and his mother's deaths - but as assumptions go, I realize it could very well be wrong. Quote:
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2012-02-26, 20:44 | Link #162 |
The True Culprit
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Well, we know memories revert gradually, instead of being an instant snapback, because the librarian retained enough awareness to write down the names of the Anothers. And while the Another may be forgotten, and their death remembered, it seems the curse can still be recalled by way of contextual things, like "We didn't ignore someone this year, people died" and "we had an uneven number of desks".
Also, the graduation photos.
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2012-02-26, 21:11 | Link #163 |
Detective
Join Date: Aug 2010
Age: 36
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As some people are indicating that the aunt could be a possibility if she was not already excluded by logic:
No - the Additional person has to be a student of that class, not a former student. A few theories about who it could be: Spoiler for Theories about the dead:
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2012-02-27, 05:09 | Link #164 |
Moving in circles
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Singapore
Age: 49
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As the series enters its mid-point, I've come to wonder if we're being lured away from what seems to be a separate mystery, namely that of Mei's apparently dysfunctional family.
While it seems abundantly clear — for now — that Mei is not the other, other hints are being dropped that much about her is far from "normal". The emotional distance between Mei and her mother (and Mei's reluctance to talk about it), the revelation that she had a stillborn younger sister, the dolls and their association with death and, last but not least, Mei's certainty that Kouichi is not the "one". Why is she so sure? What does she know that she hasn't yet revealed? Could the dolls literally be "voodoo" dolls that represent the townsfolk (hence the reason Mei was taking a doll to the morgue that first night Kouichi met her: it represented her recently departed cousin)? What could it mean, for Mei to literally have a space of her own on the other side of the coffin? Does she draw death like the dolls, being herself an incomplete soul that attract things from beyond? Everyone is so focused on finding the "other" at the moment that I'm growing sceptical that "it" is the heart of the mystery. Call it a gut instinct (inspired in part by the ED, Anamnesis). There are clues, but no strings to thread them together as of yet. But I'll call it first: I think we're being fooled. Mei has and always been key to Yomiyama's predicament, and it will likely end badly for her. |
2012-02-27, 06:16 | Link #165 |
Detective
Join Date: Aug 2010
Age: 36
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Mei knowing that Koichi is not the dead one is actually makes her a lot more suspicious than any other character, because only the dead one could say this for sure.
As I said behind the spoiler tag: It has to be someonee introduced in either episode 1 or 2, otherwise that person would not fulfill the requirement of being introduced in the early parts of the story, but no one whose thougths we were allowed to follow, which excludes everyone beside the Koichi. However, Umineko has shown that there are ways to work around that rule, and we still don't know if the dead knows that he is dead. Because if the dead one is not aware of his stutation, we being allowed to follow Koichi's thoughts would not violate the KNOX rules. Rule one only leaves a few people as suspects, namely everyone being shown in the outro(Except the ones having died for sure), all other characters have yet to be introduced, EXCEPT theory 4 from my post above is true, then we get an additional suspect. I also agree that the dolls might represent the townsfolk, the room behind the coffin is not really Mei's own room though but just has an elevator leading to her flat. But the dolls being representative would actually point to Mei again. Still, my prime supect is Izumi. Last years records not being changed is also easily explained: Its the same dead person as last year and not a different one. This way the records not being altered is just fine. Another thing we know is that if you leave something at the shrine you are able to stop the curse. Its probably something makabre though as the one having found out about it seemed pretty shocked even after several years.
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2012-02-27, 16:46 | Link #166 | |
The True Culprit
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2012-02-27, 20:42 | Link #167 | |
Detective
Join Date: Aug 2010
Age: 36
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Arrgs blue and red, now you got me fired up for discussion
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Please not that The Dead is actually alive(until the graduation picture is taken, that is) You see, as long as the person is flesh and blood they do not violate rule 2 rule. I admit the rules were stretched quite a lot though. therefore, This story has a mystery. It has a detective and a mystery to be solved. it being a horror story does not exclude it from being a mystery at all. This mystery is, as of yet, not about how the crime was committed or why. This information was already given to us before the first death took place. Until proven otherwise, this mystery is therefore about who is it, which is slightly different from 'who has committed the crime. We also have to wait whether the scenes shown in the preview are the main characters dreams, as there is still room for doubt that there even is a phenomenon. There are even a few hints pointing into that direction. All deaths until now could be explained by applying logic. Another mystery we have to solve is who the detective actually is, since both Izumi and Koichi would fall under that job description. And yes, the character shown most is not necessarily the detective. A good example for this is the book 'Sleeping Murder'. Ms. Marple definitely is the detective, yet not the character shown most, and also not the character whose thoughts you follow most of the time. I therefore say that there is room for doubt about the detectives identity, as both of them would fit the requirements You might now say that Koichi is still one of the suspects for being dead and this would violate KNOX 1 again Koichi being the dead does not necessarily violate the rules. It only violates them if, and only if the dead one is aware of being dead, which the main character is obviously not. In contrast, Van Dine's rule to have but one detective was already violated, as Several people are conducting the investigation and could be considered of bearing the title of 'detective, so we can say for sure that they do not apply. We were also given several hints that the phenomenon might not be a phenomenon, but a tricky way of murder using one or more minor accomplices at several occasions. One of them is the part were a girl was saved from death once, and has yet to die, while all other incidents immediately resulted in death. Thus, the application of Knox rules as a method of solving the mystery about the dead person is not a faulty move as everything until now can be explained by giving logical statements. Thus, the application of Knox rules as a method of solving the mystery about the dead person is not a faulty move as everything until now can be explained by giving logical statements. Another being a Horror Story does not exclude it from being a mystery, neither dos the supernatural part as it is not important for the solving the mystery. Furthermore, there is at least one hint that either Knox or Van Dine rules apply as we were, as both rules demand given the opportunity to examine every piece of evidence and draw the right conclusions from them if shrewd enough. Van Dine's rules were already broken, in regards to the actual mystery. I therefore say that Knox rules are applicable in regards to the Mystery of 'who is the dead' as the dead is, at the moment, in fact a living person until either revealed by the graduation picture or the detective! The defense rests.
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2012-02-27, 20:48 | Link #168 | |
The True Culprit
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It doesn't even matter if the deaths are supernatural or not; they're not being caused by a living human. There is no criminal to catch. This is checkmate. You lose.
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2012-02-27, 21:59 | Link #169 | |
Detective
Join Date: Aug 2010
Age: 36
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Yet, I have not yet lost. There is still room to doubt a supernatural being being the 'culprit'. Every single murder can be explained by using a human culpirt. For example, the incident at with the glass panel. Neither does Knox forbid for deaths having nothing to do with the actual crime to happen, nordoes the situation at hand exclude a foul play. A culprit simply needed to push the panel, them not being shown is just a depiction of him not being in the detectives line of sight. There is also the hint of no measure working at all, not even exorcism. Also, there are several characters easily able to falsify evidence. The librarian for example was in charge of all records and could have easily led astray every single officer of countermeasures. His motive does not have to be clear to us until the final deduction. You can even explain the memory loss is explainable by using scientific means, which are both logically and don't need a long explaination. Some of Agatha Christie's novels are not about murder while you can solve all her novels applying Knox rules. This myystery is simply wrapped up in another story. Rule 2 rules supernatural beings out as culprit - yet again we are not looking for a criminal, but a person being alive until a certain condition is met. Until this point the person is alive, and thus qualified to be 'a human culprit'. This way of construing is allowed by using teleological interpretation when looking upon said rule. It is not the first time a novel is meant to be solved with Knox rules, while they are far stretched. We are in fact referring to such a case at them moment by using colored 'truths' You can also apply Knox rules solely by using the dead one being alive again as their crime. Its simply an anaology. also his definition of Mystery Novels does dissallow the author to apply them solely for the part of solving the mystery behind identities. Again, only supernatural entities violate Knox 2, the Dead however is, as far as the actual mystery is concerned, a living person until a certain condition is met, and does thus not violate Rule 2 while it is in effect. All of this is a possibility not necessarily the truth. - Yet enough to avoid a checkmate for now.
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2012-02-27, 23:25 | Link #170 | ||||
The True Culprit
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Also, please present clues that the incidents are being caused by human entities. Knox does not allow for the solving of crimes without clues being presented. Quote:
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2012-02-28, 01:27 | Link #171 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2010
Age: 38
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What's with all the blue and red in this page? Umineko fans enjoying this show?
Episode 8 I get the feeling Reiko and her sister were twins. One of the two (most likely Reiko) is really dead. We also saw Mei going to the morgue in the very first episode. That scene needs to have some significance. What if she too had a twin? With the memory tampering going on surely there is a possibility of people forgetting about her. Can the possibility of such a connection help in figuring what's going on? Still no clue But enjoying the show completely as it's quite impossible to make out which scenes are the important keys in figuring out this mystery. On a personal note, watched the episode last night and had a hard time going to sleep due to that freaky preview. Spoiler for Shot from the preview - Enhanced with some shadows/highlights filter, a bit gory:
My gut feeling says not all of it a nightmare this time. Having a wild imagination is suffering
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Last edited by EroKing; 2012-02-28 at 02:30. |
2012-02-28, 05:16 | Link #173 | |
Lost in my dreams...
Join Date: Jun 2006
Age: 37
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Basically widely considered the "standards" to which a good detective/mystery story should adhere to. Note that it doesn't really apply to stories of supernatural nature though (in fact one of the "rules" is that the culprit must be human), so it's best not to get caught up in them when analyzing something like Another - they are written with a different (distinctly non-supernatural) genre in mind. While that might be an instinctive assumption to make, there actually isn't anything that cements the necessity for Another to be someone in class 3 directly. In fact we have a clue to the opposite - the countermeasure of ignoring someone in class 3 was said to be effective 50% of the time. Which raises the question: what causes it to be ineffective during the other half of the time ? The only likely answer is that the Another isn't necessarily someone from class 3, but someone connected to it within the same 2 degrees of separation that the phenomenon affects. In this case, pretending someone doesn't exist in class 3 likely wouldn't have the desired effect indeed, because the Another wasn't there in the first place, so it would become a situation of barking up the wrong tree.
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2012-02-28, 07:02 | Link #176 |
Lost in my dreams...
Join Date: Jun 2006
Age: 37
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This part is a bit iffy, and class 3 is definitely in the center for the phenomenon, but we have to remember that said part was Mei's (not even the librarian's) speculation - it seems likely at this point, but we can't be sure that's the actual trigger for the phenomenon. I don't have a clear suggestion regarding what else it might be at this time, but I know one thing for sure - the countermeasure only works half the time, and they have no idea why.
We can't pretend that this piece of information doesn't exist, so we have to confront the question it poses (and the possible implications): why does ignoring someone within class 3 only work sometimes? And the only answer that I can come up with is: the Another didn't directly exist in class 3 to begin with during said year, thus ignoring someone from the class had no effect. What we do know about the phenomenon is that affects people within 2 degrees of separation from someone who is part of class 3, which IIRC mirrors the circumstances surrounding the death of original Misaki - he and his family members, up to two degrees, were lost when their house burned down. Now let's take that trail of thought further: the class pretended that only Misaki still exists, yet the phenomenon saw fit to involve people up to two degrees of separation anyway. Why ? The lives of Misaki and his family were claimed by a single incident, thus I speculate this: denying the death of Misaki denied the effect of said incident as a whole, thus denying the death of Misaki's family by proxy. Misaki and his family exist as one in this equation - they were all claimed by the same fire, so pretending part of it didn't happen doesn't work. You either acknowledge the tragedy as a whole, or you don't. Thus we have the reason why family members of those connected to class 3 are in danger as well - because that's what happened in the incident that started all this. Not only was Misaki's death denied, but that of his family as well, up to two degrees of separation, by association. With that in mind, is it really safe to claim that someone from class 3 specifically is the Another ? As opposed to someone within the same bloodline range in regards to class 3 whose death was originally denied ? Given that the countermeasure only works 50% of the time, I'd say the answer is evidently "no". And this is exactly the trap the librarian has fallen in to - so focused on class 3 specifically, that he can only helplessly shrug and admit of having no idea why it doesn't work when it doesn't. Rather than repeating the same mistake and being over-focused on class 3 exclusively, it's important for us to look at the things he might have overlooked in the tunnel-visioned focus on it.
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2012-02-28, 08:05 | Link #177 | |
Me at work
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The librarian says that the records go back to normal and using that he can find out who was the "Another" was (except in 1983) if that technique only worked 50 % of the time I would think thelibrarian would have told us.
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2012-02-28, 08:19 | Link #178 | ||
Kana Hanazawa ♥
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: France
Age: 37
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PS: never knew a tl;dr tag existed o_O
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2012-02-28, 08:50 | Link #179 | ||
Lost in my dreams...
Join Date: Jun 2006
Age: 37
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We do know, however, that the common cure applied (pretending that someone in class 3 doesn't exist) works only half the time. Why ? Quote:
We do know that records go back to "normal", which means Mami's name no longer would have been present in the 1996 roster (hence his remark that he remembers her name being there) - she didn't really "exist" during 1996, because she died in 1993. If one manages to memorize the student roster while the phenomenon is in effect, keep said memory long enough, and then compare it with the "normal" roster after said phenomenon is over, one can probably deduct who was the Another indeed. But this is far from a surefire method, considering memories are hardly reliable. From what I understood, Mami's case was special (and hence why he showed it to Mei and Koichi) because her name was already "crossed out" in the 1993 roster, which allowed him to make this specific connection for certain.
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Last edited by Skyfall; 2012-02-28 at 09:03. |
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2012-02-28, 10:01 | Link #180 | |
Member
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Greater Boston
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But I think we're overanalyzing this. Here's definitive evidence from last episode that Reiko is the Another: Spoiler:
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