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Old 2022-01-22, 21:47   Link #341
moridin84
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Jeanne claiming that the Empire would withdraw if Julias didn't accept the terms was just a bluff.

They definitely couldn't let Elfrieden keep Van, at the same time they couldn't let Amidonia off without punishment.

If Amidonia refused any reparations then it's likely that the Empire would have invaded and occupied Van themselves. If Julias still refused then either they would forcefully take reparations (looting) or remove him from power and replace him with his little sister.
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Old 2022-01-22, 22:12   Link #342
yuiichi9
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Maybe Jeanne claiming that the Empire would withdraw if Julias didn't accept the terms was her way of being a hypocrite then. No surprise there. Just what would you expect from someone that belongs to the empire.

Last edited by yuiichi9; 2022-01-22 at 22:25.
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Old 2022-01-23, 00:40   Link #343
moridin84
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Originally Posted by yuiichi9 View Post
Maybe Jeanne claiming that the Empire would withdraw if Julias didn't accept the terms was her way of being a hypocrite then. No surprise there. Just what would you expect from someone that belongs to the empire.
Hypocrite?

She was lying but how does that make her a hypocrite?
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Old 2022-01-23, 03:02   Link #344
Huh...?
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Originally Posted by yuiichi9 View Post
This doesn't apply to Elfrieden since they are not part of the treaty.
The 3rd Clause actually applies to non-signatories, based on the assumption that, since those who had signed the treaty are working to protect that behind by becoming a shield, it isn't nice for those who didn't sign the Treaty to enjoy the safe environment, without any effort. Also Elfrieden isn't the only nation which didn't sign the Treaty, there are other nations who didn't sign it, and they all paid support in one way or another.
This is the very reason why, the Empire had asked Elfrieden to do the Hero Summoning, because they couldn't pay the Support Money (as explained in Season 1)

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Originally Posted by yuiichi9 View Post
Now you are twisting things. The empire would have obviously invaded Elfrieden if the empire would had attack Elfrieden. Anything you said would be sophistry.
Why do you think Empire would have attacked Elfrieden?
That has nothing to do in this Situation.
As a Light Novel Reader and Wiki Admin, i know the situation much better.
There was never a situation of Empire launching an invasion on Elfrieden.
The case was simple,
- Amidonia invaded Elfrieden, but in the counterattack lost Capital Van & it's surrounding area to Elfrieden (Julius had escaped before he could have been taken as PoW, or killed)
- Calls in the Empire to intervene as per Clause 1 of the Treaty to get Van back.
- Souma & Co are currently in Van, the occupied Capital of Amidonia
- If Souma had rejected Jeanne's demand for return of Van, then the Empire would use it's 50,000+ strong army to take Van by force, which would have potentially resulted in Souma & Co, getting taken as prisoner. And depending on situation, either Empire would have turned Elfrieden into a Puppet or Vassal Nation, or demand high reparations for release of Souma & Co., or else released them without any condition.
- This is because, the main reason for Empire to be there is to Free Van from Elfrieden, and that's all.
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Last edited by Huh...?; 2022-01-23 at 03:12.
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Old 2022-01-23, 03:39   Link #345
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by moridin84 View Post
Jeanne claiming that the Empire would withdraw if Julias didn't accept the terms was just a bluff.

They definitely couldn't let Elfrieden keep Van, at the same time they couldn't let Amidonia off without punishment.

If Amidonia refused any reparations then it's likely that the Empire would have invaded and occupied Van themselves. If Julias still refused then either they would forcefully take reparations (looting) or remove him from power and replace him with his little sister.
I'm not so sure about that. If Julius refused, then there were no good options for the Empire. Like you said, they could neither let Elfrieden keep Van nor let Amidonia get away with invading another country, even a non-signatory. One of those lines would have to be crossed, and it's just a matter of deciding which.

Invading Van themselves would probably be the worst. It'd be expensive just to keep their invading army supplied, and they'd go from altruistic leaders to tyrants with territorial ambitions.

So, yeah, explaining to the other signatories that Amidonia brought it on themselves, booting them out, and letting them sort it out with Elfrieden would probably have been the least bad option. Which means it wasn't a bluff.
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Old 2022-01-23, 09:21   Link #346
moridin84
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I'm not so sure about that. If Julius refused, then there were no good options for the Empire. Like you said, they could neither let Elfrieden keep Van nor let Amidonia get away with invading another country, even a non-signatory. One of those lines would have to be crossed, and it's just a matter of deciding which.

Invading Van themselves would probably be the worst. It'd be expensive just to keep their invading army supplied, and they'd go from altruistic leaders to tyrants with territorial ambitions.

So, yeah, explaining to the other signatories that Amidonia brought it on themselves, booting them out, and letting them sort it out with Elfrieden would probably have been the least bad option. Which means it wasn't a bluff.
Well, it's not impossible but it's hard to know how other kingdoms would take it. Ultimately the treaty was broken, regardless of the reason.

And considering they already came over, sticking around and occupying Van for an extra couple of weeks wouldn't make that much difference.
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Old 2022-01-23, 10:45   Link #347
yuiichi9
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If Souma had rejected Jeanne's demand for return of Van, then the Empire would use it's 50,000+ strong army to take Van by force, which would have potentially resulted in Souma & Co, getting taken as prisoner. And depending on situation, either Empire would have turned Elfrieden into a Puppet or Vassal Nation, or demand high reparations for release of Souma & Co., or else released them without any condition.
- This is because, the main reason for Empire to be there is to Free Van from Elfrieden, and that's all.
This. If that would had happen, then the empire would be no different than amidonia since amidonia invade Elfrieden without good reason. Spare me any excuse or justification that since they are members of the treaty they have to get back Van no matter what they do. That would be the same as if amidonia invade Elfrieden and steal, rape and torture the people of Elfrieden. The end doesn't justify the means. What Souma did when he returned Van was the same as prostrate in a dogeza and beg for his life as if he had done anything so bad he feels remorseful . When someone does that it can be seen as having a weak mind, bend and suck up to anyone who wants to create a conflict with them. Worst than a servant or underling.

Last edited by yuiichi9; 2022-01-23 at 11:15.
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Old 2022-01-23, 13:02   Link #348
Tenzen12
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Apparence wise sure he indeed looks like he is weaker then Empire and nations of treaty as whole which also happen to absoultely match reality. Trying bluff his way out would only hurt Elfried, which it cannot afford it in first place. He coould either get as much benefit as possible (and let's be honest Soma got big net profit from that war) or get his ass whooped. You seem to be convinced it should be later

As for Empire itself, yes on national and especially multi-national level ends do justify means, especially in wartime. Empire has limits how good guy they can be and it tell lot about them that they didn't do any less they could to not ripp off Elfried. After all they could let Amidonia get away with it with just slap on wrist and have Elfried retunr Van for penny. As long it looks good enough for other nations not complain there isn't necessity do anything more.
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Old 2022-01-23, 13:47   Link #349
yuiichi9
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If the situation would had been a little on the contrary and amidonia invade part of Elfried. If Souma would had go to the empire to had them return the territory that amidonia invade, I doubt they would comply. Nice double standards. Which said a lot of bad leadership from the empire. When you have double standards I would doubt you would make good decisions. Seeing Souma returning Van remind of the parts of anime that have bad guys(gang, mafia, yakuza etc.) extort someone innocent. The innocent reaction is kneeling with fear acting subservient towards the bad guys.

Last edited by yuiichi9; 2022-01-23 at 14:07.
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Old 2022-01-23, 14:43   Link #350
Znail
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Originally Posted by moridin84 View Post
Jeanne claiming that the Empire would withdraw if Julias didn't accept the terms was just a bluff.

They definitely couldn't let Elfrieden keep Van, at the same time they couldn't let Amidonia off without punishment.

If Amidonia refused any reparations then it's likely that the Empire would have invaded and occupied Van themselves. If Julias still refused then either they would forcefully take reparations (looting) or remove him from power and replace him with his little sister.
I don't think it was a bluff. They had done their part and if Julias refused to do his part of the deal, then him not getting Van back is his own fault. It would not have been ideal outcome, but I doubt other countries would be upset over a brat not wanting to admit that he had lost a war.
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Old 2022-01-23, 14:45   Link #351
Tenzen12
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Originally Posted by yuiichi9 View Post
If the situation would had been a little on the contrary and amidonia invade part of Elfried. If Souma would had go to the empire to had them return the territory that amidonia invade, I doubt they would comply. Nice double standards. Which said a lot of bad leadership from the empire. When you have double standards I would doubt you would make good decisions. Seeing Souma returning Van remind of the parts of anime that have bad guys(gang, mafia, yakuza etc.) extort someone innocent. The innocent reaction is kneeling with fear acting subservient towards the bad guys.
You know how aliance works, right? It's written promise to help allies against outsiders. It would be double standard if both Amidonia and Elfridia were allies or both outsiders, but with it not being case it's not just not double standard but also correct course of action.
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Old 2022-01-23, 14:56   Link #352
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by yuiichi9 View Post
If the situation would had been a little on the contrary and amidonia invade part of Elfried. If Souma would had go to the empire to had them return the territory that amidonia invade, I doubt they would comply. Nice double standards. Which said a lot of bad leadership from the empire. When you have double standards I would doubt you would make good decisions. Seeing Souma returning Van remind of the parts of anime that have bad guys(gang, mafia, yakuza etc.) extort someone innocent. The innocent reaction is kneeling with fear acting subservient towards the bad guys.
You know, I never thought I'd be saying that about a harem isekai, but maybe it's too mature for you? Too nuanced?

You clearly won't be satisfied without a simpler setting, some kind of clear, color-coded, absolute good vs absolute evil.
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Old 2022-01-23, 15:07   Link #353
yuiichi9
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I think an alliance should had its limits. What if amidonia would had steal, rape, torture and enslave people from Elfried. Would the empire react the same way? Until what point they would allow amidonia getting away with without expelling them from the treaty. That is one of my concerns. Well I had seen Spice & Wolf, Maoyuu Maou Yuusha, Code Geass and Chrono Crusade. This anime doesn't even come close to the quality of those anime in every aspect. Maybe I was expecting Souma to be a decent character but with how poorly written he is, that prospect doesn't look good. Hope he learn from this experience.
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Old 2022-01-23, 15:15   Link #354
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Originally Posted by yuiichi9 View Post
This. If that would had happen, then the empire would be no different than amidonia since amidonia invade Elfrieden without good reason. Spare me any excuse or justification that since they are members of the treaty they have to get back Van no matter what they do. That would be the same as if amidonia invade Elfrieden and steal, rape and torture the people of Elfrieden. The end doesn't justify the means. What Souma did when he returned Van was the same as prostrate in a dogeza and beg for his life as if he had done anything so bad he feels remorseful . When someone does that it can be seen as having a weak mind, bend and suck up to anyone who wants to create a conflict with them. Worst than a servant or underling.
The problem is that, someone from Amidonia side survived and went to Empire to based on the Clause of the Treaty, and made them act.
If no one from Amidonia's side had survived, or if Amidonia had succeeded in taking over Elfrieden and they had killed every person related to Royalty or Political power position of Elfrieden, before Empire took action. Then the Empire would have been forced to accept the Takeover/Annex, because there would have been no one to return the power back to.

Its clear that, Empire was not happy with how Amidonia had taken advantage of a loop-hole in the Treaty to attack Elfrieden, and would actually have preferred to leave Van with Elfrieden, because they won it with a counterattack.
But the problem here is the Image of the "Treaty", along with how the other Nations who are either signatory or non-signatory would react to.

Empire (specifically Maria), created the Treaty in order to unify the Nations of Humanity (here, Elves, Beastmen, etc are also classified as Humanity) and fight against the Horde of Monsters and the Demon Army, while not being stuck with their on infighting (its, like an Alien species is attack Earth, but rather than working together to combat the threat as asked by the UN, all Nations are busy warring against each other).
But if the Empire hadn't handled the situation properly. The validity of the "Treaty" would have been Questioned, and the infighting between various nations would have started back again.
Souma also understands this part, which is also why he didn't bother much with how things went. The reason being, why incur useless losses.
Its not always right to be adamant, sometimes its important to bow down and accept things, because there is a bigger picture.

Also, there is another "Reason" why Souma gave up on Van so easily, which would become clear later.
This "Reason" is related to the reason behind why Souma hadn't signed the Empire's Treaty yet (Albert, Liscia's Father wasn't sure about it and didn't sign it, but Souma had a clear reason for not signing it).
I am not going to say much about it, since it would be Spoilers and not sure how the Anime would cover all the stuff, since they had already skipped a reference.

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Originally Posted by yuiichi9 View Post
If the situation would had been a little on the contrary and amidonia invade part of Elfried. If Souma would had go to the empire to had them return the territory that amidonia invade, I doubt they would comply. Nice double standards. Which said a lot of bad leadership from the empire. When you have double standards I would doubt you would make good decisions. Seeing Souma returning Van remind of the parts of anime that have bad guys(gang, mafia, yakuza etc.) extort someone innocent. The innocent reaction is kneeling with fear acting subservient towards the bad guys.
Regarding the "if Amidonia had successfully invaded the Elfrieden" part.
I would say that, its better if you don't question or ask about it much, because someone might come and spoil you about it, as the LN does cover on it somewhat.
Why and how its covered is, i wouldn't say it though. But it would probably become vaguely clear near the end of Season 2.

On the other hand, i would say that.
Even in real life, a signatory of a Treaty would be given preferential treatment than a non-signatory, even if the signatory is at fault.
This is how politics usually works
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Old 2022-01-23, 15:21   Link #355
Tenzen12
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Originally Posted by yuiichi9 View Post
I think an alliance should had its limits. What if amidonia would had steal, rape, torture and enslave people from Elfried. Would the empire react the same way? Until what point they would allow amidonia getting away with without expelling them from the treaty. That is one of my concerns. Well I had seen Spice & Wolf, Maoyuu Maou Yuusha, Code Geass and Chrono Crusade. This anime doesn't even come close to the quality of those anime in every aspect. Maybe I was expecting Souma to be a decent character but with how poorly written he is, that prospect doesn't look good. Hope he learn from this experience.
Of course there are limits and Amidonia was getting very close to go over them. Thats why Empire was far from happy to clean after them. That said they would have to do something much worse for other nations endorsed direct action against it.
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Old 2022-01-23, 15:29   Link #356
yuiichi9
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That said they would have to do something much worse for other nations endorsed direct action against it.
Wonder what is worse than that? If it reach that point then those nations are the worst human beings in that world. Wonder if those nations had their loved ones be rape, torture and enslave they would have the same mindset. Maybe forming an alliance with the demons would be better or trying to be transport to another world. Too bad truck-kun isn't there.
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Old 2022-01-23, 15:55   Link #357
Tenzen12
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If it really came to having Elfridian people "their loved ones be raped, tortured and enslaved", it would probably enough justify Empires intervention. So yeah around that amount of worse.
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Old 2022-01-23, 16:02   Link #358
yuiichi9
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If it has to reach that point for the empire to move then their image as protectors of humanity would have crumble. Just saying.
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Old 2022-01-23, 16:16   Link #359
Tenzen12
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And that's the thing, Elfridia didn't signed into "being protected" club, while Amidonia did that's why Empire protect Amidonia and not Elfiridia. In same way NATO and US will let Russia invade Ukraine as it's not ally with either of them, if it ever come to it. That's how it works in both reality and fiction.
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Old 2022-01-23, 16:19   Link #360
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by yuiichi9 View Post
If it has to reach that point for the empire to move then their image as protectors of humanity would have crumble. Just saying.
They're accepted as leaders in the fight against the demons, and even that isn't unanimous. They're not the world police, even if they are trying to promote a kinder, more peaceful world.
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