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Old 2022-01-07, 19:19   Link #41
Kanon
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Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
My first assumption was Erisa was missing because she was trying to find a cure.
Most likely, but that's no reason to go missing. Why wouldn't she work with the government? It's in everyone's interest to find a cure.
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Old 2022-01-07, 22:04   Link #42
FlareKnight
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I can kind of tell in the first few minutes that this lead will be exhausting. Even before the world ended this guy was like that. Not that I don't get his situation being a tough one with finding out he had that condition and having to enter cold sleep. But what was even his ideal result there? That Erisa herself would volunteer waiting for him? Ironic to say that he can't ask her to wait a few years for him to get better when he waited at least that many years to bother confessing to her in the first place .

Thankfully for him that's basically what happened.

I tend to agree that the logic here seems shaky. On some level I get the rush. But shouldn't they wait until the kid is born and determine if that kid has immunity? I guess in the worst case they can always put these guys back into cold sleep and continue looking for a cure. But waiting for the pregnant woman to give birth isn't such a long time that they can't wait. If society is going to crumble anyways they won't last until any kids born grow up in the first place. I get that giving people hope could be valuable, but again that won't happen until the first kid is born anyways.

Kind of swings back as well to my initial view of the topic. It's fine if he wants to find Erisa first. But he'll have to face reality that just having kids with her probably won't be good enough. Even if they find a cure and get back however many men are in cold sleep still that's probably going to remain the case.

Erisa going missing is weird. There shouldn't be a need to do that, presuming she's trying to find a cure. I guess there's a possibility that someone near the top wanted to massacre the male population of the world. Maybe it's another tale of evil AI trying to wipe out humanity. Although I'm not sure if the disease was created by a machine that they'd only have it affect half the population.
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Old 2022-01-07, 23:11   Link #43
Magewolf
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Originally Posted by FlareKnight View Post
I can kind of tell in the first few minutes that this lead will be exhausting. Even before the world ended this guy was like that. Not that I don't get his situation being a tough one with finding out he had that condition and having to enter cold sleep. But what was even his ideal result there? That Erisa herself would volunteer waiting for him? Ironic to say that he can't ask her to wait a few years for him to get better when he waited at least that many years to bother confessing to her in the first place .

Thankfully for him that's basically what happened.

I tend to agree that the logic here seems shaky. On some level I get the rush. But shouldn't they wait until the kid is born and determine if that kid has immunity? I guess in the worst case they can always put these guys back into cold sleep and continue looking for a cure. But waiting for the pregnant woman to give birth isn't such a long time that they can't wait. If society is going to crumble anyways they won't last until any kids born grow up in the first place. I get that giving people hope could be valuable, but again that won't happen until the first kid is born anyways.

Kind of swings back as well to my initial view of the topic. It's fine if he wants to find Erisa first. But he'll have to face reality that just having kids with her probably won't be good enough. Even if they find a cure and get back however many men are in cold sleep still that's probably going to remain the case.

Erisa going missing is weird. There shouldn't be a need to do that, presuming she's trying to find a cure. I guess there's a possibility that someone near the top wanted to massacre the male population of the world. Maybe it's another tale of evil AI trying to wipe out humanity. Although I'm not sure if the disease was created by a machine that they'd only have it affect half the population.
None of the backstory makes any sense. How does a disease that kills within 3 days turn into a pandemic? It would burn itself out in no time. Woman would have to be carriers, at least.

And what would stop artificial insemination? That moves things out of any chance of being a natural occurrence and into enemy action.
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Old 2022-01-07, 23:38   Link #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanon View Post
Most likely, but that's no reason to go missing. Why wouldn't she work with the government? It's in everyone's interest to find a cure.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlareKnight View Post
Erisa going missing is weird. There shouldn't be a need to do that, presuming she's trying to find a cure. I guess there's a possibility that someone near the top wanted to massacre the male population of the world. Maybe it's another tale of evil AI trying to wipe out humanity. Although I'm not sure if the disease was created by a machine that they'd only have it affect half the population.
Not that I think we should loo too much into the plot, but I guess maybe potentially there's someone high up or in the government who has designs to wipe out all males in existence and wouldn't want a cure...
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Old 2022-01-08, 20:43   Link #45
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Originally Posted by Magewolf View Post
None of the backstory makes any sense.
You do realize this is a 0IQ show that exists for fanservice, right? No one can answer that question.
Just stare at the boobs.
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Old 2022-01-09, 12:16   Link #46
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Watched the first episode, and the censorship was quite annoying. I assume in Japan there is also an uncensored version, right?
Having read the manga I'm not going to say anything about the plot, other than yeah, when watching this series one has to accept that giving a scientifically accurate explanation of how a pandemic and repopulation work was a secondary goal compared to establishing the setting.
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Old 2022-01-10, 15:12   Link #47
Infinite Zenith
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Originally Posted by Kanon View Post
Finding a cure seems like a more realistic solution than repopulating Earth with just five guys. I'm not well versed enough to know, but wouldn't genetic diversity be a problem? 5 men doesn't sound like enough.
This concept is known as the effective population size (Ne), the number of individuals who can contribute to producing offspring of the next generation. A paper from Richard Frankham, Corey J.A. Bradshaw and Barry W. Brook, Genetics in conservation management: Revised recommendations for the 50/500 rules, Red List criteria and population viability analyses, suggests that the IUCN's (International Union for Conservation of Nature) existing estimates Ne = 50 to repopulate a species and Ne = 500 to retain evolutionary potential (a metric that gauges resilience in genetic diversity) are too low.

Since Shuumatsu no Harem is about repopulating humanity and worrying about the rest later (let's assume they have the tech to worry about the rest later), I'll assume that we don't care about evolutionary potential. In this case, an Ne of 50 can still cause inbreeding depression, (the tolerance that paper states is 10% over 5 generations), and the paper suggests that Ne = 100 is more appropriate. In the context of Shuumatsu no Harem, we assume that finding females aren't a problem, so answering the question, 5 men is nowhere near enough: the IUCN Ne of 50 (i.e. 50 men) is the minimum, but Ne of 100 (100 men) would be much better.

Having said this, if we allow the in-show claim that 99.9% of males were wiped out by the virus to hold true, that still leaves 0.1%. This corresponds to of 3970239 men (if we assume there are about 3970238390 males in the world), which would be more than enough. It sounds like a very roundabout way of setting things up, and Shuumatsu no Harem isn't going to withstand vigorous scientific scrutiny. In other words, this is an aspect of the show that's not likely worth worrying about.
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Old 2022-01-10, 17:14   Link #48
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Originally Posted by Magewolf View Post
None of the backstory makes any sense. How does a disease that kills within 3 days turn into a pandemic? It would burn itself out in no time. Woman would have to be carriers, at least.
It's implied they are carriers. Didn't they state that male babies born via artificial insemination did not survive? The logical conclusion would be that the virus continues to live in women without significantly harming them, and they carry it on to babies born from them, who subsequently die shortly afterwards if male. If 50% of carriers are asymptomatic yet highly infectious, that's pretty much guaranteed to cause a pandemic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Magewolf View Post
And what would stop artificial insemination? That moves things out of any chance of being a natural occurrence and into enemy action.
Artificial insemination in general is stated to work, just male offspring does not survive, presumably due to the mother still carrying the virus. They mentioned they are attempting artificial insemination using Chad No. 1's sperm (forgot what his official designation was) and unless I missed something that experiment is still in progress (so no confirmation either way - would make sense if it worked, assuming the immunity is genetic (implied to be otherwise natural procreation would be futile as well)).

Quote:
Originally Posted by serenade_beta View Post
You do realize this is a 0IQ show that exists for fanservice, right? No one can answer that question.
Just stare at the boobs.
Just because a story is focused on fanservice does not necessarily mean it can't have a good plot. Usually it doesn't, but the presence of sexual elements does not preclude the plot from being interesting. Episode 1 spent way more time establishing the plot and setting than on actual fanservice, so I'm cautiously optimistic for this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Infinite Zenith View Post
Having said this, if we allow the in-show claim that 99.9% of males were wiped out by the virus to hold true, that still leaves 0.1%. This corresponds to of 3970239 men (if we assume there are about 3970238390 males in the world), which would be more than enough.
It must be noted that the 99.9% was communicated verbally in a relatively informal conversation. People tend to sound weird if they claim the chance of something is "99.9999999%" so in practice people just say "99%" or "99.9%" to convey 'basically everyone'.
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Old 2022-01-10, 18:11   Link #49
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It must be noted that the 99.9% was communicated verbally in a relatively informal conversation. People tend to sound weird if they claim the chance of something is "99.9999999%" so in practice people just say "99%" or "99.9%" to convey 'basically everyone'.
One would need to go to about 0.00001% before it begins to seriously impact the Ne values. As previously noted, the science falls apart under scrutiny, so it's not like I'm going to approach this one expecting anything that would pass a Nature peer review.
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Old 2022-01-10, 19:20   Link #50
Kanon
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Originally Posted by VDZ View Post
Artificial insemination in general is stated to work, just male offspring does not survive, presumably due to the mother still carrying the virus. They mentioned they are attempting artificial insemination using Chad No. 1's sperm (forgot what his official designation was) and unless I missed something that experiment is still in progress (so no confirmation either way - would make sense if it worked, assuming the immunity is genetic (implied to be otherwise natural procreation would be futile as well)).
All attempts at artificial insemination failed, the "experiment in progress" is one of the woman he banged being pregnant with a boy. They're waiting to see if the baby will survive after it's born.
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Old 2022-01-10, 20:14   Link #51
Magewolf
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Originally Posted by VDZ View Post
Artificial insemination in general is stated to work, just male offspring does not survive, presumably due to the mother still carrying the virus. They mentioned they are attempting artificial insemination using Chad No. 1's sperm (forgot what his official designation was) and unless I missed something that experiment is still in progress (so no confirmation either way - would make sense if it worked, assuming the immunity is genetic (implied to be otherwise natural procreation would be futile as well)).


.
I went back and checked and she said normal sperm let women get pregnant but male embryos died. While immune males's sperm did not work at all for artificial insemination but did work in person, as it were.

And if women are all "Typhoid Mary"s in the setting why even try to have male children in the first place? Since 99.9 percent of them are going to die even if they could be brought to term. There is no reason(in fact every reason not) to think that whatever made the five guys immune would be passed on in their genes.

"But they were under going gene therapy so that should be passed on?" If it was that easy why not just run all the sick men in cold sleep through the same thing? "Because it is some strange effect of the disease plus cure so just using the cure would do not good." That should actually make it easier since then all you should have to look at is how the cure leaves the patients genes, which should be incredibly well documented already to even let the cure be used.

So either the writer understands nothing about the sciencey words he is writing or the cure is not genetic.
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Old 2022-01-11, 01:05   Link #52
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Originally Posted by VDZ View Post
Just because a story is focused on fanservice does not necessarily mean it can't have a good plot. Usually it doesn't, but the presence of sexual elements does not preclude the plot from being interesting. Episode 1 spent way more time establishing the plot and setting than on actual fanservice, so I'm cautiously optimistic for this.
Well, if this anime somehow builds up its story so that everything makes sense and doesn't come from assumptions and trying to look through every crook and cranny in science outside of the anime to come up with a logical explanation for the author... cool.
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Old 2022-01-11, 16:20   Link #53
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Well, if this anime somehow builds up its story so that everything makes sense and doesn't come from assumptions and trying to look through every crook and cranny in science outside of the anime to come up with a logical explanation for the author... cool.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suspension_of_disbelief

You're supposed to give the author the benefit of the doubt. Without that, it's going to be hard to enjoy most fiction. It's only once the author breaks their own rules or the rules that one would assume to carry over from reality and have not been suggested to be inapplicable, only then should you blame the author. A dumb premise does not mean a story can't be good, as long as it remains consistent in what kind of realism/internal rules are or aren't in effect.
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Old 2022-01-11, 18:56   Link #54
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suspension_of_disbelief

You're supposed to give the author the benefit of the doubt. Without that, it's going to be hard to enjoy most fiction. It's only once the author breaks their own rules or the rules that one would assume to carry over from reality and have not been suggested to be inapplicable, only then should you blame the author. A dumb premise does not mean a story can't be good, as long as it remains consistent in what kind of realism/internal rules are or aren't in effect.
I think most watcher should probably know this already since it's a part of every ficiton. People just tend to get more riled up when any kind of science is involved . At least it seems this way. I don't think comparing is a problem, but one shouldn't exaggerate it.
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Old 2022-01-11, 21:49   Link #55
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I think most watcher should probably know this already since it's a part of every ficiton. People just tend to get more riled up when any kind of science is involved . At least it seems this way. I don't think comparing is a problem, but one shouldn't exaggerate it.
This is kind of strange as most hollywood movies doesn't follow real world science in any way, especially sci-fi movies. It's just that most people doesn't know enough to bother.

As for how many males are needed to repopulate the world so are that not a hard number as the paper is about how many is needed for risks to be eliminated. There is an actual real world example of 2 males repopulating an issolated island, so it's hardly a case of not being worth trying with 5.
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Old 2022-01-14, 10:54   Link #56
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As for how many males are needed to repopulate the world so are that not a hard number as the paper is about how many is needed for risks to be eliminated. There is an actual real world example of 2 males repopulating an issolated island, so it's hardly a case of not being worth trying with 5.
Mind chucking a source to that case study? I'm curious to read about it and see what follow-ups might've been done there.
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Old 2022-01-14, 19:57   Link #57
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Well, that didn't take long. The virus was revealed to be man-made (more like woman-made) and there's a huge conspiracy out there. Now, you may think exterminating all males is fucking dumb since that would mean humanity would go extinct within a hundred years, but I think we were given their solution to the problem: cloning with a little bit of gene splicing. Suou is definitely Erisa's "enhanced" clone based on what they said.

Number 1 is living the dream.
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Old 2022-01-15, 04:19   Link #58
serenade_beta
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Spoiler for ep2:
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Old 2022-01-15, 04:40   Link #59
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I never knew a mainstream anime would be allowed to show full on nudity as much as this anime does. There's some out there, but this one seems to have more. It's definitely more for guys watching than for girls because they don't show #2's package, nor any of the women's nether regions in detail (is there a law in Japan that forbids media to portray those anatomical body parts?)

Anyways, regarding the episode, I hope the conspiracy and levels of twists and plotlines are deep and convoluted. Seems like we are already getting some of that, but also some really wild and non sense ideas:

- The red haired attendant (to #1) was silent but had a suspicious smile
- The purple haired attendant is so much like the childhood friend, but she seems to have a way to communicate with her
- The bodyguard and nurse are not what they initially seemed to be, and both have to sleep in the same bed (wtf)
- Random bear breaks loose, just for the plotline to reveal who the real bodyguard is
- Secret higher (mid level) women organization monitoring and controlling the actions of the men and women around them

At this point, I don't really know who to trust. Is the purple attendant a nice person? Why does she have a way to communicate with Erisa? Is Erisa telling the truth about the MK virus being human made? Maybe the little sister is the only other true good person left, besides #2.

The show is interesting as it draws some parallels to the coronavirus pandemic we are currently living in. I just hope it doesn't turn into a total dumpster fire (even though there have been moments).
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Old 2022-01-15, 06:47   Link #60
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Originally Posted by Infinite Zenith View Post
Mind chucking a source to that case study? I'm curious to read about it and see what follow-ups might've been done there.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Descen...unty_mutineers

By 1800 so was there one male survivor, but I admit that there were also some kids from the other now dead males. But the genepool was very limited and the island managed to survive. My point is mostly that numbers like at least 50 males relates to limiting the risks and not a hard number as even one male and one female could work if lucky with genes.
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