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Old 2022-01-19, 19:46   Link #81
Kanon
Kana Hanazawa ♥
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Metaneo View Post
And the fact that there's (apparently?) an official R18 doujin of this series.
I'm going to need more info on this.
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Old 2022-01-19, 20:03   Link #82
grecefar
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Originally Posted by Kanon View Post
I'm going to need more info on this.
it's from this chapter too and it's already in english.
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Old 2022-01-19, 20:11   Link #83
Ghostfriendly
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Is anyone else at least going to acknowledge that some porn is written for men, and some for women? The oft-repeated point that women also like porn/have a sex drive doesn't do anything to justify this series in itself.

Last edited by Ghostfriendly; 2022-01-20 at 02:56.
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Old 2022-01-19, 21:02   Link #84
Magewolf
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Originally Posted by Ghostfriendly View Post
Is anyone else at least going to acknowledge that some porn is written for men, and some for women?
Most porn is actually written for target audiences(even if unintentionally). You write a feet story for the feet people(male, female, others, and Quentin Tarantino). You write a big boob,older woman younger man,incest,D/s, and so on stories in the same way. Now depending on the slant you are more likely to hit some segments of that audience than others but it can be hard to predict sometimes.

Like one of the vice-presidents at work who recently acquired a lesbian bimbo(duck lips and huge fake breasts and the whole package) trophy wife. And she has been showing her off ever since like a kid with a new toy so she would be in the bimbo story target audience even if they are usually considered male.
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Old 2022-01-19, 22:35   Link #85
Chosen_Hero
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Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
I think there's a difference between how she acts around stuff that's her hobby as a fangirl versus what she's generally like outside of it, on-top of what she's willing to do for cosplay.

On a base level, she is supremely hot, but she's also passionate, accepting, warm, and just generally wholesome and kind. The complete package .
In episode one she is literally openly and happily explaining the anime that she likes to her gyaru friends in the background (she literally made a relationship chart on the blackboard), Marin isn't hiding her otakuness, she's the same at all times.

------

Gotta say that it's hilarious reading all of the comments from people jumping to conclusions about the characters or overthinking things that don't matter, keep it up you guys.
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Old 2022-01-20, 02:28   Link #86
Sheba
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghostfriendly View Post
Is anyone else at least going to acknowledge that some porn is written for men, and some for women?
There are MEN who watches SAILOR MOON. Lets not get started on My Little Pony. And 2B from Nier Automata enjoyed a lot of female fans AND cosplayers, because they actually loved having a strong and sexy female protagonist.
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Old 2022-01-20, 03:06   Link #87
Ghostfriendly
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Originally Posted by Sheba View Post
There are MEN who watches SAILOR MOON. Lets not get started on My Little Pony. And 2B from Nier Automata enjoyed a lot of female fans AND cosplayers, because they actually loved having a strong and sexy female protagonist.
Which does nothing at all to justify sex-slave male-serving porn cosplay. There are plenty of strong, sexy and scantily clad women to cosplay, as you say; Ohno cosplayed such characters happily without ever supporting the lie that porn which degrades women for male pleasure is anything girls should be alright with.
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Old 2022-01-20, 03:41   Link #88
Tactics
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I always acknowledged it, just didn't know what's the point considering Marin playing eroge is narrative design to sell idea of sex slave.

That kind of things didn't need Marin words to found consumer.
Besides, as someone who once helping a cosplay team that I consider very supportive when it comes to otaku knowledge, let me tell you that in 90's good, challenging costume owned by character with strong personality lies on such depth of abyss. Many 90's cool gothic lolita design existed in stories about, well: sex slave, gore, rapes or simply 'monsters' following appeal of fantasy setting. It took Rozen Maiden, a 2002 manga, to allow gothic lolita truly get out of that boundary. I do have experience of:

"Wow, this character costume looks cool, can we do this for free character?"
"First things first do you even know what series that character come from?"
"No? Why?"
"It come from eroge focused on rape, by multiple individuals"

Its not like well-designed gothic lolita is something common to design for a series;
Not even in current fad of Isekai anime, so for me its sign that the writer really doing the research.

Marin act for me is totally understandable, she mentioned the game is considered kami-ge even supporting her point.
That character is popular within community and she can understand the appeal, she consider it a good challenge, so she's set on doing it being straightforward she is.
What's the problem with that? Cosplayer looking to challenge themselves for a role is not something new. Not everyone content and satisfied just by doing Deku or Saitama costume.

She's gyaru, depiction of popular and social girl, it doesn't make sense! It have to be socially inept girl!
Why so? I met several socially popular girls during that time I'd like to say I can't believe my eyes either to learn they're cosplayer.
It strikes my heart as a teenager when one of them sang Butterfly (Digimon OP) after competition just because its her favorite anisong.

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Old 2022-01-20, 03:45   Link #89
EroKing
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NSFW
Warning: Not safe to view at work or school!
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Old 2022-01-20, 04:13   Link #90
ryllharu
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Regarding if Marin is a unicorn...confidence, openness, and forwardness are attractive. These people do exist. Not every anime heroine has to be meek, shy, and need protecting like Komi Shouko (an archetype that is very boring to me). Nagatoro is popular for much of the same reasons that Marin is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tactics View Post
I always acknowledged it, just didn't know what's the point considering Marin playing eroge is narrative design to sell idea of sex slave.

That kind of things didn't need Marin words to found consumer.
Besides, as someone who once helping a cosplay team that I consider very supportive when it comes to otaku knowledge, let me tell you that in 90's good, challenging costume owned by character with strong personality lies on such depth of abyss. Many 90's cool gothic lolita design existed in stories about, well: sex slave, gore, rapes or simply 'monsters' following appeal of fantasy setting.
...
She's gyaru, depiction of popular and social girl, it doesn't make sense! It have to be socially inept girl!
Why so? I met several socially popular girls during that time I'd like to say I can't believe my eyes either to learn they're cosplayer.
...
The message and mini-arc of the first two episodes is that it is okay to "like what you like."

It counters Wakana's childhood trauma of being told that his interests are weird, creepy, and wrong for a boy (a relatable notion for anime fans or even figure collectors and what pushes the initial emotional core of the series to audiences). That led to his own social isolation because he was afraid to talk about what he enjoys and love.

Marin is the contrast to this point. She's popular, beautiful, desired, and has many friends. She experiences normal life as a gyaru. But as we saw her draw out on the chalkboard, she's very open about her love for anime.

Marin gets three introductions in the first episode. The manic-pixie flying through the air that doesn't make any sense and we can discard, the story she tells her friends that Wakana overhears where she very bluntly delivers the message from the author that, "You just don't go making fun of things people clearly like," being a huge turnoff for her when the guy at the hair salon was negging her to try to pick her up, and that her true desire is to be a cosplayer.

It emphasizes her point and the author's message by having her true fan love be a raunchy, humiliation-and-sex-slave misogynistic eroge. It's the last thing you'd expect a gyaru like Marin to love, including her absolutely serious explanation of the content of the game. It is also so off-putting that a person's initial reaction will challenge the viewers and Wakana with an opportunity to face the very disgust that he received for liking everything there is about hina dolls.

Marin tells him that his interests are perfectly fine to have. How can he not return the favor, even with her main love being in a franchise like that?
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Old 2022-01-20, 04:42   Link #91
Sheba
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghostfriendly View Post
Which does nothing at all to justify sex-slave male-serving porn cosplay. There are plenty of strong, sexy and scantily clad women to cosplay, as you say; Ohno cosplayed such characters happily without ever supporting the lie that porn which degrades women for male pleasure is anything girls should be alright with.
And what people are trying to tell you is that any media may NOT hit the targeted audience and gets instead a periphery audience. What's the subject matter or the tropes used inside the work doesn't count.

Versailles no Bara was targeted at teenage girls, but instead enjoy a fair share of fans who are much older men who watched it for the period drama. Cutey Honey was targeted at males, but surprisingly have a lot of female fans. And then you have Berserk... Infamous for having graphic sexual violence targeted at women. However, this did NOT stop women from loving the shit out of Berserk. And don't get me started at even more infamous Redo of Healer, I objectively think this show is edgy teenager trash and best watched with alcohol and drowning it out under Black Metal, just to drive the edginess home. But color me surprised when I learned that it's actually liked by women.

You CANNOT predict which demography will love a given work. Marin just so happen to be a periphery demography of the eroge she's fan of. It only make YOU uncomfortable because of the slavery tropes. It's just fiction, man. It didnt cause people to be enslaved in real life, it didnt make people wish they could bring back slavery, just relax and breath.

Last edited by Sheba; 2022-01-20 at 04:56.
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Old 2022-01-20, 08:58   Link #92
stray
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ryllharu View Post
It emphasizes her point and the author's message by having her true fan love be a raunchy, humiliation-and-sex-slave misogynistic eroge. It's the last thing you'd expect a gyaru like Marin to love, including her absolutely serious explanation of the content of the game.
You... do know that gyaru are stereotypically promiscuous right? Its not like she wants to cosplay a character from an obscure '80s mecha show or something. Being an eroge otaku was actually kind of fitting up until her obliviousness throughout the measurements scene. Though Gojo wasn't helping with his ultimate virginity, either.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghostfriendly View Post
There are plenty of strong, sexy and scantily clad women to cosplay, as you say; Ohno cosplayed such characters happily without ever supporting the lie that porn which degrades women for male pleasure is anything girls should be alright with.
Have you actually read any eroge? Let's say a medium length game is 32 hours with four heroines; that's around 8 hours exposition per girl. For comparison an entire one cour anime series is a little over 4 hours. Even in the extreme case that 4 of those 8 hours is H scenes we're talking 4 hours for character exposition including the romantic 'win' (even for perennial losers like the osananajimi, biological sister, etc.) and whatever snags the couple hits while in a relationship. Eroge characters get development that seasonal waiufs can only dream of.

Also kink shaming is lame, please stop.
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Old 2022-01-20, 17:01   Link #93
Ghostfriendly
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tactics View Post
"Wow, this character costume looks cool, can we do this for free character?"
"First things first do you even know what series that character come from?"
"No? Why?"
"It come from eroge focused on rape, by multiple individuals"
That sounds like an absolutely awful situation for cosplay and anime to be in; if people weren't very unhappy about it, they should have been. At least nowadays, when the series is set, there are certainly no shortage of good, well-dressed characters to cosplay that are not from degrading porn games.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheba View Post
And what people are trying to tell you is that any media may NOT hit the targeted audience and gets instead a periphery audience. What's the subject matter or the tropes used inside the work doesn't count.
Of course, which is nothing like the situation of someone being a fan of works designed to degrade and dehumanise their own persecuted group. Marin is essentially an African American saying 'Oh Lordy, lordy, I just love me them blackface minstrel shows, and that there 'Birth of a Nation' might glorify the KKK as heroes but it sure was a milestone in cinematographic history'. Being forced to say so, in fact, by writers who are making money by pandering to male viewers, with the misleading and unrepresentative portrayal of a woman who likes women being degraded, so it can't be that bad, right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by stray View Post
Have you actually read any eroge? Let's say a medium length game is 32 hours with four heroines; that's around 8 hours exposition per girl. For comparison an entire one cour anime series is a little over 4 hours. Even in the extreme case that 4 of those 8 hours is H scenes we're talking 4 hours for character exposition including the romantic 'win' (even for perennial losers like the osananajimi, biological sister, etc.) and whatever snags the couple hits while in a relationship. Eroge characters get development that seasonal waiufs can only dream of.

Also kink shaming is lame, please stop.
I've come across some good visual novels, including Stein's Gate, Phantom of Inferno and Amnesia. The characters and stories are good, but long run time is their biggest drawback. There's less development per minute than a good anime or book, assuming the participants have much character to develop. Even for the good ones, there is only so much development that can be wrung out of any character, regardless of screentime. Long hours aren't going to turn a donkey into a racehorse, succinctness is a valuable quality, and of course if the end result is a woman who enjoys being degraded for male pleasure, her path to this point is irrelevant. She has this quality because men are willing to pay to enjoy female degradation. The character development is not important, the misogyny is.
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Old 2022-01-20, 17:07   Link #94
Sheba
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Comparing Marin to an African-American? Seriously? Did you just use the Slippery Slope fallacy? It's no use to discuss with someone who, at this point and place, is acting like a Kotaku journalist and clearly looking at this show through the lens of a self_righteous American.
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Last edited by Sheba; 2022-01-20 at 17:18.
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Old 2022-01-20, 17:23   Link #95
Ghostfriendly
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Originally Posted by Sheba View Post
Comparing Marin to an African-American? Seriously? Did you just use the Slippery Slope fallacy? It's no use to discuss with someone who, at this point and place, is acting like a Kotaku journalist and clearly looking at this show through the lens of a self_righteous American.
No, not slippery slope fallacy. A woman written to like anti-woman products isn't close to a black person written to like anti-black products, they are equivalent. I'm not saying that fictional degradation of women will necessarily lead to, say, violence against women; fictional degradation of women is bad in itself.
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Old 2022-01-20, 18:23   Link #96
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by Tactics View Post
Marin act for me is totally understandable, she mentioned the game is considered kami-ge even supporting her point.
That character is popular within community and she can understand the appeal, she consider it a good challenge, so she's set on doing it being straightforward she is.
What's the problem with that? Cosplayer looking to challenge themselves for a role is not something new. Not everyone content and satisfied just by doing Deku or Saitama costume.
That sounds like a cosplayer's reasoning, while Marin is a fan first, a cosplayer second.
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Old 2022-01-20, 18:32   Link #97
ramlaen
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Originally Posted by Ghostfriendly View Post
Marin is essentially an African American saying 'Oh Lordy, lordy, I just love me them blackface minstrel shows, and that there 'Birth of a Nation' might glorify the KKK as heroes but it sure was a milestone in cinematographic history'.
This is an incredible reach in order to complain about a female character liking porn.

Last edited by ramlaen; 2022-01-20 at 18:42.
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Old 2022-01-20, 19:11   Link #98
Frontier
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
That sounds like a cosplayer's reasoning, while Marin is a fan first, a cosplayer second.
Although she seems pretty into cosplay...
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Old 2022-01-20, 19:27   Link #99
stray
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghostfriendly View Post
I've come across some good visual novels, including Stein's Gate, Phantom of Inferno and Amnesia. The characters and stories are good, but long run time is their biggest drawback. There's less development per minute than a good anime or book, assuming the participants have much character to develop. Even for the good ones, there is only so much development that can be wrung out of any character, regardless of screentime. Long hours aren't going to turn a donkey into a racehorse, succinctness is a valuable quality, and of course if the end result is a woman who enjoys being degraded for male pleasure, her path to this point is irrelevant. She has this quality because men are willing to pay to enjoy female degradation. The character development is not important, the misogyny is.
That's a lot of words to say "no, I haven't read any eroge".
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghostfriendly View Post
Is anyone else at least going to acknowledge that some porn is written for men, and some for women?
BTW any feminist credibility you had went out the window by suggesting people should stick to the porn for their gender. Sexuality is way more complicated than that, and your argument is coming from a position of sex negativity more than any sort of defense against misogyny. Bringing race into it is missing the point, and honestly kinda distasteful.
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Old 2022-01-20, 20:20   Link #100
Ghostfriendly
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Originally Posted by stray View Post
That's a lot of words to say "no, I haven't read any eroge".BTW any feminist credibility you had went out the window by suggesting people should stick to the porn for their gender. Sexuality is way more complicated than that, and your argument is coming from a position of sex negativity more than any sort of defense against misogyny. Bringing race into it is missing the point, and honestly kinda distasteful.
It was clearly an inadequate number of words for you to understand me. For eroge to spend eight hours developing a character is nothing to prevent the final product being misogynistic rubbish, like this anime and the eroge portrayed in it. There may well be many eroge which don't degrade their female characters horribly, but those shown in this series are not; that's the purpose of the anime.

You should be able to see why women wouldn't usually want to watch male-targeted pornography that's devoted to degrading and humiliating women. I've said that I don't care what porn real people watch; this show dishonestly and unrepresentatively presents a female fan of degrading anti-female media, to make money out of thus excusing such media for its male users, and pretending it's less offensive than it is.

The racism metaphor is spot on unless you don't think that societal misogyny exists, or similar. I hoped it would convey a correct understanding of the situation clearly.
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