Mahouka Koukou no Rettousei LN - Q&A/Discussion about Magic & Technology

[SoboSobo]

Originally Posted by Marcus H.

There are a lot more things like Eidos and Idea and terms in general that are better replaced for simpler terms.

eidos its a greek word - it means information body .

Yes i agree some things can be changed by simpler terms, but in this universe the author makes magic a science, and having some complicated things its need to make it look like a science and be a science.
Some times you have to re read parts of the novels because you lose track on notions and terms, i guess the fact that magic is a science its what makes this universe so interesting.

[Rava]

Originally Posted by Marcus H.

There are a lot more things like Eidos and Idea and terms in general that are better replaced for simpler terms.

Well, you could describe the series in RPG terms easily, but part of the appeal is the more unique terminology that isn't completely bizarre. Although I guess I'm confused on if you're just saying the technobabble is a tad too much, or if you're actually requesting a simplified explanation of the magic and tech.

[Marcus H.]

Both, actually. But I understand how the author is trying to illustrate as something that can't just be explained in layman's terms since he is trying to make magic as a science.

Unfortunately, that makes this series a bit troublesome to read because of the too much running around the bush.

[SoboSobo]

Originally Posted by Marcus H.

Both, actually. But I understand how the author is trying to illustrate as something that can't just be explained in layman's terms since he is trying to make magic as a science.

Unfortunately, that makes this series a bit troublesome to read because of the too much running around the bush.

In other series that involves magic they use more of an rpg term like mana, magic energy, magic circles, talismans etc and that is not a bad thing.

The troublesome part starts when the author tries to give a scientific definition to those terms like what is it, how is it formed, how does it work.
And trying to put scientific definitions like this to some terms that so far have been fantasy its a bit confusing.
What else adds to the confusion is adding physics and chemistry processes to the mix.

Like i`ll try to make a comparison :

In a fantasy way:
magicians uses mana to create a fireball and shot it at the enemy. Simple right no headache.

IN mahouka things get a lot more complicated:

Magician uses psions to construct a activation sequence(a blueprint for the spell) then he uses the blue print to create the spell.
But the spell is just a set of different physics/chemical phenomena to create a desired effect, phenomena like gravity, mass, acceleration, inertia,speed,kinetic energy,thermal energy, electrical energy,drag,reflection,refraction etc.
For example to create a fireball spell you will need things like heat,fuel,gravity etc
In order to create the "fireball" you will need fuel so one needs to separate or create and gather hydrogen and oxygen molecules from the air, then uses gravity to gather those together and keep them in a contained form (a sphere), after that uses a acceleration to increase the speed of those molecules in the sphere, by increasing the speed of the particles there, the molecules are smashing each other and converting the kinetic energy into thermal energy resulting in an increase of temperature(maxwell and boltzman theory on gases), when the temperature reaches the ignition point of the hydrogen the hydrogen will ignite and start to burn forming the fireball.
After the fireball is formed then the magician needs to move the fire ball towards a destination, this is accomplished by adding a move vector to the fireball in order to start moving it towards the destination,after that can apply an acceleration vector to increase its speed.

This is just an explanation on how much pain in the ass and a headache is when you try to explain magic through science.... gave myself a headache just coming up with this nonsense.

[kusabireika]

^ same got a headache too, on how I can make a simplied explanation on the magic of mahouka, only the author/mahouka fanatic can only answer/explain it

[SoboSobo]

Originally Posted by kusabireika

^ same got a headache too, on how I can make a simplied explanation on the magic of mahouka, only the author/mahouka fanatic can only answer/explain it

is there such a science where explanations are simple?

well you think science is complicated, i guess mixing up science and magic its down right insane lol

[Guest2]

Originally Posted by kusabireika

^ same got a headache too, on how I can make a simplied explanation on the magic of mahouka, only the author/mahouka fanatic can only answer/explain it

The detailed magic explanations is one of the things that makes this novel interesting for me. I feel that making it more simpler is such a waste but lets try and cover the basics.


- In this novel Magic is now a field of science, where 'Super Powers' are studied and made into technology that everyone can use.

- Insubstantial particles used for magic exist all around, and a person must have a certain level of innate talent for manipulating and gathering these special magic particles of this world. Those capable can go onto to study this field of science and can train to one day become, Magic Technician(Magicians).

- The current main system of magic - Modern magic - uses electronic tools that store magic spells as data and have systems that can enhance the speed and making of magic spells, which happens much liking compiling computer software. These devices can be made portable and come in different shapes, like cellular phones or guns. They must be individually tailored to each magic technician's magical bio-readings. Magic technician's who specialize in creating software and equipment for magic, including their maintenance, are called Magic Engineers.

- The process by which magic works starts by the Magic Technician choosing a spell on their device. They then feed gathered magic particles into their device to be processed/compiled into an impotent spell blueprint, which they must reabsorb. Their subconscious then takes the intent in their imagination and the spell blueprint to further produce a working magic spell.

-In this novel there exists a parallel dimension used for magic. This dimension perfectly reflects the entire real world as just information data, and is composed entirely of magic particles. Magic spells work by altering the information held in this parallel dimension, and then the laws of this novel has reality alter itself to match the updated parallel data. Changes to the information held in the parallel dimension causes changes to occur in reality, as if by ..... Magic.


As simple as I can personally force myself to make it.

[SoboSobo]

Originally Posted by Guest2

The detailed magic explanations is one of the things that makes this novel interesting for me. I feel that making it more simpler is such a waste but lets try and cover the basics.


- In this novel Magic is now a field of science, where 'Super Powers' are studied and made into technology that everyone can use.

- Insubstantial particles used for magic exist all around, and a person must have a certain level of innate talent for manipulating and gathering these special magic particles of this world. Those capable can go onto to study this field of science and can train to one day become, Magic Technician(Magicians).

- The current main system of magic - Modern magic - uses electronic tools that store magic spells as data and have systems that can enhance the speed and making of magic spells, which happens much liking compiling computer software. These devices can be made portable and come in different shapes, like cellular phones or guns. They must be individually tailored to each magic technician's magical bio-readings. Magic technician's who specialize in creating software and equipment for magic, including their maintenance, are called Magic Engineers.

- The process by which magic works starts by the Magic Technician choosing a spell on their device. They then feed gathered magic particles into their device to be processed/compiled into an impotent spell blueprint, which they must reabsorb. Their subconscious then takes the intent in their imagination and the spell blueprint to further produce a working magic spell.

-In this novel there exists a parallel dimension used for magic. This dimension perfectly reflects the entire real world as just information data, and is composed entirely of magic particles. Magic spells work by altering the information held in this parallel dimension, and then the laws of this novel has reality alter itself to match the updated parallel data. Changes to the information held in the parallel dimension causes changes to occur in reality, as if by ..... Magic.


As simple as I can personally force myself to make it.

man don`t get me wrong i love this novel, and i love how magic is in this universe.
And i like how magic as a science relates to other sciences like physics and chemistry and not bypassing them and quite frankly i don`t want a simpler explanations for magic in this universe, its it a science and science is no easily understood, its vast and its complex and that's the beauty of it.

[Rava]

Originally Posted by Marcus H.

Both, actually. But I understand how the author is trying to illustrate as something that can't just be explained in layman's terms since he is trying to make magic as a science.

Unfortunately, that makes this series a bit troublesome to read because of the too much running around the bush.

OK, there's probably several ways to do it. Let's try this way. This is an analogy comparison so it's definitely not going to be an exact definition.

Think of the setting as a JRPG.

Someone's "max Psion count" is, as expected, their max MP. However, in this setting, every turn of combat, your MP naturally refills completely. Using magic in this setting is literally converting MP into the effect. Your MP can also be fiddled with, and some magics that fiddle with your MP do so to counter whatever magic you're trying to use -- that kind of magic is called Counter Magic.

Every spell in this game has a minimum magical stat requirement to use it and has at least one magic type. You can think of these stat requirements as falling in to the following categories:

- Magic Strength
- Magic Complexity
- MP cost

Characters also have a Casting Speed stat, and magic also has a minimum Cast time required in order to take effect.

There are also some abilities in this JRPG analogy.

For example, one ability is called BS Magic. BS Magic's benefit lets you ignore requirements for whatever magic types are associated with it. However, it has a downside -- your magic stats are treated as lower for almost all other magic types, and it's usually low enough that you just can't use anything else. The only exception to this penalty is for magic that directly affects other people's MP and magic. So Tatsuya, the main character, has BS Magic (Decomposition, Regrowth). This dropped his magical stats for practically everything else to zero except for his Counter Magic and other MP manipulating abilities.

Magic also uses focus items. Some magics, like Counter Magic, don't require a focus item and don't get a lot of benefit (if any) from using one. However, most magics do get a benefit -- usually by increasing the user's casting speed -- and you would have to be insane not to use one. Examples of focus items are wands or talismans.

Out of the focus items available, an electronic type of focus item called a CAD is currently popular because it lowers MP cost, drastically increases Casting Speed by a huge percentage over other focus items AND reducing the minimum Cast time because of how the magic is prepared, and requires very little preparation by the user, letting most users actually use magic quickly. This benefit is so drastic that users are totally willing to deal with the hassle of needing to have their magic stored as electronic data, just to be able to cast more spells in the same amount of time. Generally, if someone's not using a CAD, it's because they have abilities that focus on whatever other type focus item they've decided to use, whether it be talismans, carvings, or whatnot. Otherwise, everyone uses a CAD.

(I'm not really done...but figured I may as well post it before going further.)

[Marcus H.]

However, in this setting, every turn of combat, your MP naturally refills completely.

But that's not how magic works! Where's the balance in that if magicians can just spam whatever's in their arsenal? Or is this possible because of that parallel dimension?

Basically, the restraints present in using magic is the time it takes to cast one spell and the psions needed to cast the spell. Aside from that, magicians can cast anything as long as their CADs can keep up and they know what they are casting.

[Rava]

Originally Posted by Marcus H.

But that's not how magic works! Where's the balance in that if magicians can just spam whatever's in their arsenal? Or is this possible because of that parallel dimension?

The way it's described, your body isn't producing the Psions/MP for use but absorbing it from the environment, IIRC (I might be off on this since I don't remember the section it's from and am a little time crunched ATM). However, other than outliers like Tatsuya, most people have a low MP count. With CADs though, it's just as bottomless.

Originally Posted by Marcus H.

Basically, the restraints present in using magic is the time it takes to cast one spell and the psions needed to cast the spell. Aside from that, magicians can cast anything as long as their CADs can keep up and they know what they are casting.

Yep.

Witness the Air bullet spam (and Gram Demolition counter spam) in the Nine Schools Competition. MP's a non-factor in the series unless you're using something stupidly expensive in cost (like Gram Demolition).

Stuff like getting exhausted from using too much magic can occur, but so far it's just a plot device.

Edit: There are possible limits, but that hasn't really been explicit.

For example, it's possible that you can only use up to a certain amount of your Magical Strength stat in a turn, so if you are planning on firing more than that limit, you have to make them all weaker. But we know that all spells coming from the same person have the same complexity because of the mention of the higher quality of Masaki's spells leading to a higher difficulty to blast apart with Gram Demolition compared to the magic of the other rabble.

I do know that they have mentioned targeting limits per spell however, like Tatsuya having something in the 30s for what was either Mist Dispersal or his Far Strike, I think, and Miyuki having something in the 10s for Freeze Flame per Freeze Flame casting. There's nothing else to allow us to credibly say that it extends to everything else they can cast though.

[Marcus H.]

I still can't wrap my head around the concept of spammable magic in Mahouka. Sure, science can help in optimizing psion consumption and there seems to be a psion ceiling for each burst of spell usage, but I don't think that both the environment and this "magical alternate world" can actually keep up with the things happening in the real world.

Stuff like getting exhausted from using too much magic can occur, but so far it's just a plot device.

I hope not because that's just wasted potential.

[Rava]

Originally Posted by Marcus H.

I still can't wrap my head around the concept of spammable magic in Mahouka. Sure, science can help in optimizing psion consumption and there seems to be a psion ceiling for each burst of spell usage, but I don't think that both the environment and this "magical alternate world" can actually keep up with the things happening in the real world.



I hope not because that's just wasted potential.

There's obviously a downside to spamming magic outside of the "magic exhaustion" factor or we'd be seeing it more often. It just hasn't been very visible. Some types of magic are pointless to spam as well, like Miyuki's Niflheim or Leo's Fortification magic. So far, though, magic spam only really occurs with magic that's easy for the spammer to use. So Hale Particles, Air Bullet, and Tatsuya's Gram magics and (unfortunately) Mist Dispersal.

[Guest2]

Originally Posted by Marcus H.

But that's not how magic works! Where's the balance in that if magicians can just spam whatever's in their arsenal? Or is this possible because of that parallel dimension?

Basically, the restraints present in using magic is the time it takes to cast one spell and the psions needed to cast the spell. Aside from that, magicians can cast anything as long as their CADs can keep up and they know what they are casting.

The stated restraints in Mahouka have been the individual's magic power(measured by one's speed, scale and strength for using magic). Some spells are single use and some are sustained. Both use up the psions the magician has naturally gathered throughout any resting period, and sustained spells naturally use them up faster.

But this world's setting isn't an actual video game, magic is a science that uses advanced technology to make the casting process more efficient. These people have actual peaceful day Jobs as Magic Technicians where they might have to use their magic all day.

[kusabireika]

Originally Posted by Rava

There's obviously a downside to spamming magic outside of the "magic exhaustion" factor or we'd be seeing it more often. It just hasn't been very visible. Some types of magic are pointless to spam as well, like Miyuki's Niflheim or Leo's Fortification magic. So far, though, magic spam only really occurs with magic that's easy for the spammer to use. So Hale Particles, Air Bullet, and Tatsuya's Gram magics and (unfortunately) Mist Dispersal.

But due to tatsuya invention it lessen the mana consumption of certain spell like the spamable type of magic unless you refering to empty hand method or cad without loopcast method ?

[Guest2]

Originally Posted by kusabireika

But due to tatsuya invention it lessen the mana consumption of certain spell like the spamable type of magic unless you refering to empty hand method or cad without loopcast method ?

Thanks to advanced Cad equipment and tailored software, modern magic has been made more ridiculously efficient. Spamming is only seen done by those with high magic power for the area of magic they are using.

[Marcus H.]

Guest2: Sure, it's not a video game, but it simulates the slow natural recovery rate of the human body. That's the reason why we can't do a lot of things at the same time without getting tired. All this technology catering the efficiency of psion usage seemed excessively convenient, and I personally wanted psions to be used intelligently even by high-level characters.

[IceHism]

Originally Posted by Marcus H.

Guest2: Sure, it's not a video game, but it simulates the slow natural recovery rate of the human body. That's the reason why we can't do a lot of things at the same time without getting tired. All this technology catering the efficiency of psion usage seemed excessively convenient, and I personally wanted psions to be used intelligently even by high-level characters.

Consuming psions is more of a mental thing than a physical thing. Because the requirements of psion is already cut down extremely low by modern CADs, the main thing that exhausts a magician from casting spells or operating at maximum efficiency is mental fatigue. They won't be panting from running out of air or something like that



Anyways, Volume 3, chapter 5

Spoiler for Tats explains fatigue to Leo:

"Still, the President is using Speed-Type Magic to turn air molecules into ice particles then applying acceleration to sub-sonic levels and using Sensory Magic at the same time, right? With Sensory Magic running, and then using deceleration and acceleration back and forth a hundred times, the President has amazing Magic Power."

At this point, the "Magic Power" Leo was talking about did not refer to the "Magic Power" from the technical skills assessment, but the more generic context of having the physical capacity of repeatedly casting spells.

A common misunderstanding is that magic is an activity that consumes energy.

Phenomena are not rewritten by burning physical energy, but by editing the data surrounding the phenomena.

In order to edit the data, a Magic Sequence formed from psions is required, so the number of times magic can be invoked is limited by the difference in the scale of Magic Sequences.The "Magic Power" Leo is talking about here, if likened to an actual concept, would be similar to the mental strain exerted on the body.

"The President is using a variant of 'Hale Particles'. The original 'Hale Particles' is already a highly efficient form of magic and with the President's ability, she could probably cast this 1000 times rather than a paltry 100 times."

(Scale of magic sequences refer to how much processes an activation sequence has or basically, how complex the sequence is)



Vol 12 ch 16, this shows the above applied

Spoiler for Tomitsuka:

The battle had not gone on for very long. Barely 10 minutes had elapsed since the beginning of the match. Yet, unlike his physical sensations, Tomitsuka’s mental fatigue felt like he had been in combat for dozens of hours.

[Marcus H.]

Volume 3, chapter 5

Honestly, reading that passage is giving me mental fatigue already. @_@

[IceHism]

Originally Posted by Marcus H.

Honestly, reading that passage is giving me mental fatigue already. @_@

i ain't judging.
To each their own.

I'm pretty sure the book just isn't for you. There are explanations in Mahouka that are even more technical than that passage.

The exposition and all the details is one of the best parts of mahouka for someone like me.