2009-05-01, 12:05 | Link #4121 | |||||
TRUE! Lelouch is dead! XD
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: New Jersey
Age: 36
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Now, will the peace last? Probably not because it is human nature to fight sadly. But what it did do is unite the world for a time and may prevent something as dreadful as Lelouch or Charles from happening again, even if wars start up again. Quote:
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2009-05-01, 12:36 | Link #4122 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2008
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Lelouch was always an absolute idealist at heart, in my opinion, only one who wore pragmatic and cynical robes due to the circumstances. The whole idea of Zero being an evil who would fight a greater evil is pretty idealistic to begin with, since in practice that would, naturally, only lead to more evil yet Lelouch always expected something better to come out of it. For all his trickery and all his sins, he believed that the creation of a kind world would be possible in the end and, in a way, Zero Requiem represents the same belief. Instead of a forceful but perhaps more lasting peace like that of Schneizel's Damocles or imposing a human instrumentality knockoff like that of Charles, Lelouch wanted to believe that people would, if given the chance, freely continue to struggle for happiness and, just maybe, create a better tomorrow. It's not that unexpected for him to reach that conclusion since it's pretty much a reflection born out of his own life and that of those individuals he had met. The key thing here is that Lelouch wanted punishment as well, first and foremost, which was his own self-limitation, but he also wanted to create a situation where the world would be able to find diplomatic ways for conflict resolution and he set up a few mechanisms which would help in this effort (the UFN, new leaders and a new Zero). Just by doing that, the world is already on the road to being "kinder" or at least better than it was before, even if things start to go wrong two, five, ten or twenty years later. |
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2009-05-01, 12:45 | Link #4123 | |
TRUE! Lelouch is dead! XD
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: New Jersey
Age: 36
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2009-05-01, 17:43 | Link #4124 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2009
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An idea expressed in fiction is an idea. It does not lose any value because it is used in a fictional setting but it does not gain any value either.
Yes Zero Requiem was awesome and showed the absolute depth of Lelouch's commitment to a better world, but it was also completely unecessary. All of the deaths in Zero Requiem were unecessary, including Lelouch's. Lelouch could have stopped with the Geassing of the core nobility and a few dozen soldiers, if he even needed that. He didn't even need to make them into complete brain puppets, just a broader command like "Support me and my reign," and he's set. He could have ruled Britannia justly, setting in motion changes that would better both Britannia and the rest of the world. He could have joined the UFN peacefully. He was a blank slate to the rest of the world as far as a ruler was concerned. He did good things and the citizens were calling him the 'Emperor of Justice at the UFN meeting. Instead he chose to turn the world against him when all but maybe 20 people (Schneizel, Cornelia and the Core BK) thought he was the answer to their prayers, and of those 20, all but 2 or 3 of them were already doubting themselves anyway. He pushed away those who loved him, making them try to kill him, which would have let Schneizel kill them if they had suceeded, and made them believe that the person they loved was a monster, only to make them feel worse when they saw how he wanted to help people and were then honor bound to live without him and perpetuate the lie that he was pure evil. He killed and oppressed people just so the survivors would want him dead, and hoped that they would trust his sister to rule in his place after he was dead. At this point after Euphemia and Lelouch's actions, the world would be hard pressed to trust any Britannian rulers, especially the seemingly benevolent ones. Everytime Britannia extends an olive branch to the world there has been a viper hidden in the leaves. All this because his pride demanded that he receive punishment for his own sins. For his need to impose a punishment on himself, he could have done numerous things to make his life horrible despite the adoration the world might be feeling for him. He could seclude himself from the world, accepting 20 hour work days, Geass his friends and loved ones to not want to be around him or even forget him and Jeremiah's Geass Canceller allows this to be used on Kallen and Suzaku as well. He could even Geass himself to feel lousy and depressed and to genuinely not enjoy his life, with a 'live on' command tossed in there to prevent suicides. Yes, I know things in fiction don't have to be realistic, if they were they'd be boring, but there are degrees of realsim employed in a series, and Zero Requiem was IMHO a massive drop in the levels of realism that Code Geass had displayed to that point. |
2009-05-01, 17:54 | Link #4126 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2009
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You're right, and I should say right now that I don't hate, or even dislike the ending of Code Geass. It was a TV show and it's over now. I just feel like the ending wasn't given the love and attention that the body of the series was (hell, the staff actually said this was the case, but it was beyond their control) and I am saddened by it. I apologize in advance if my last post seemed to come off as biting any heads off. |
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2009-05-01, 18:07 | Link #4127 | |
カカシ
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I thought the ending was great, sort of made up for the rushed episodes leading up to the finale. The only qualm I have with the series is that it began to undermine the importance of secondary characters towards the end. I felt the integrity (wholeness) of the story began to sort of deteriorate, and it wasn't as satisfying as it could have been. While Lelouch was the best character, the anime team focused a bit too much on him and his thoughts. We never got to know what the others were thinking and feeling. |
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2009-05-01, 18:44 | Link #4128 | |
Wielder of Cucumbers
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Canada
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A lot of the Code Geass haters themselves even have points about the ludicrousity of the anime. But when all's said and done, I can't help but think "so what?" It was entertaining. It tugged at my heartstrings. It made me think. It made me care about the characters. And that's good enough for me. XD |
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2009-05-01, 18:50 | Link #4129 |
Pon pon pon
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Rio
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I'm with you, Snow. I just want to have fun when i watch a series, and Code Geass gave me a lot of fun, so i'm okay with all his flaws.
BUUUUUUUUT, Suzaku should have his own series. He's too awesome to be just the second character on the show. |
2009-05-01, 18:52 | Link #4130 | |
Wielder of Cucumbers
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Canada
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... we need to see that scene where he dresses in a skirt for military officers. |
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2009-05-01, 18:58 | Link #4131 |
Pon pon pon
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Rio
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Hum... Actually, i think i don't really need to see this one.
But, the main problem with Suzaku is that he was the antagonist of Lelouch for a lot of time. It's hard not to pick one to choose and by doing this, a lot of people were cheering against him. Which is kind of funny, because Suzaku is the typical hero in anime that everyone loves it... Except by the maso part, hehe. I really wanted to see a series with him in the main role to see the reactions of the people. And also, i want moar Suzaku, since he was da best. |
2009-05-01, 19:33 | Link #4132 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2008
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I still have a feeling Suzaku would still be somewhat unpopular for his oafish tendencies (his whole "work within the system even though it's rotten to the core to begin with" ethic, for one), and Lelouch would still be as popular as an anti-hero. There are a lot of fandoms out there where the anti-hero rivals if not exceeds the aw-shucks protagonist in terms of popularity. CG subverted this by reversing the roles, and quite possibly by having an even more naively good-intentioned person than your usual protagonist as the opposing character.
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2009-05-01, 22:12 | Link #4135 | |||||
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2008
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Still, I don't think the question is whether he "could" but whether he "would" and there's a subtle difference involved. You've made some valid points, minor and otherwise, which I can leave alone, but this one I can't really agree with. Not because I agree with Lelouch's way of doing things, but simply because I don't think he would accept living on just like that given his state of mind at the end of the series. Specifically between Turns 20-21, which is when Zero Requiem was planned out in-universe. I think it's also consistent for Lelouch, given his stated beliefs since day one (those who are allowed to shoot are those who are prepared to be shot), to consider death the only appropriate punishment after all the deaths he's already caused, directly or indirectly, and generally speaking all the harm he has brought to others through Geass. Lelouch didn't want to die without being able to accomplish anything, that's what really scared him, but he was morally prepared to accept such a fate from the beginning. In fact, one might even argue he developed a death wish through guilt, like Suzaku, but just didn't want to die for the sake of dying: he wanted punishment *and* something more. It was a conditional one. Quote:
I would say reality was already growing increasingly distant during the first season and the second one, long before Zero Requiem, had only gradually continued the downward trend towards situations that fit the perceived purposes of the story much more than any external demand for plausibility. I don't think there was a sudden drop for ZR out of the blue. Quote:
Taken from the Continue interview that's floating around here and there: Quote:
I imagine that perhaps the ending could have been portrayed in a more convincing manner, maybe enough for us as critics or maybe not, but I don't think he's saying that Lelouch's death, which is the key part of the ending, wasn't part of the plan. Later on he even says it was a "logical end" and cites the same Stage 1 phrase I mentioned above. But yes, I do admit that the road to the same result could always be different and it's unfortunate we didn't get to see the original plan. Last edited by Xander; 2009-05-01 at 22:31. |
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2009-05-02, 08:37 | Link #4136 |
Shameless Fangirl
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Germany
Age: 33
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I still say Lelouch chose death as his "punishment" because he didn't want to suffer, but to end it all.
Which is why I never saw it as a punishment. I also agree with the "he didn't want to die for the sake of dying" thingy, though.
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2009-05-02, 08:41 | Link #4137 | |
Banned
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The fact, that this self-righteous-punishment-suicide, served for other purposes as well, is another convo. |
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2009-05-02, 08:44 | Link #4138 | |
Shameless Fangirl
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Germany
Age: 33
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He wanted to die - he even smiled - and most of the time, I think a punishment someone chooses themselves isn't a punishment.
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