2014-04-23, 11:37 | Link #34381 |
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Location: Rokkenjima
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Ouch, it's harsh seeing Kanon and Shannon kill Jessica and George (in the bottle stories). Though we already knew they were the ones who did it.
Interesting that Yasu appears to have written more eps than thought. It's a nice way to separate the question and answer arcs. |
2014-04-23, 14:56 | Link #34382 | |
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Spoiler for me responding to a bunch of stuff:
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Sometimes, I think the signature from Maria was just a shout out to Higurashi that just didn't pan out as well as he'd have hoped. A logical oversight, or something. |
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2014-04-23, 15:19 | Link #34383 |
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Maria actually maybe could have been the narrator of Turn. The First Twilight is dedicated to her, she has that scene at the end with Rosa, and so on and so forth. The problem is that if that's true then the entire board narrative of Turn is some kind of alternate reading because it comes from Battler's POV instead of Maria's. While it might be plausible to believe that some parts of the stories/Forgeries weren't included in the full package we're presented, I don't think the entire narrative perspective was changed.
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2014-04-23, 16:19 | Link #34384 | |||||||||
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In Ep 5 we've again Natsuhi blackmailed into obeying to Yasu and the adults bribed into doing what she suggest but of course Natsuhi and the adults aren't in the same team. My feeling in Ep 3 is that Natsuhi and Krauss might have been blackmailed/bribed again and form... let's call it Team Yasu 1, the servants and Nanjo form Team Yasu 2, Eva and possibly Hideyoshi form Team Yasu 3 (if Eva had a hinch Nanjo cooperated with Yasu in killing George or that Shannon killed him she might have killed both herself so she probably was contacted by Yasu only through phone). Rosa might form Team Yasu 4 (she found the gold but this didn't stop things... so this can mean she was bribed as well as Eva?). Maria is Team Yasu 5 (she's not bribed with money and she believes in magic so she probably doesn't think to a prank but to real magic?). Quote:
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And... LOL, I don't know why but I can't seriously see the scene of Eva waiting for Krauss with an axe behind his back. I guess I really don't think Eva's the type to do so... Quote:
The only one he could suspect a little more easier are Gohda and Kanon, as he just met them... but he develops a liking for them basically as soon as he met them so he sort of reject the idea (also probably suspecting them would make suspicious the whole group of the servants, not just the two newcomers). Battler isn't the only one who feels so. George and Jessica won't doubt at all of Shannon and Kanon and they too won't be able to solve anything. We see the tales from a mystery perspective, where extra people couldn't exist. In real life someone could have gone to Rokkenjima unnotice prior to the storm (Kuwabata previously used to go to Kuwadorian unknown to the other Ushiromiya so we know it's not impossible), hide in... let's say the church when the storm started or in any other place even one of the many rooms of the house and start killing. Natsuhi always had the habit of having the servants close the door because she feared someone could get in the house without them noticing so for the Ushiromiya someone unauthorized wandering on the island isn't weird. In Ep 1 Natsuhi is sure that the killer is an extra person until a letter appear in the study and she believes the servants and Maria are involved. So let's not be too severe with Battler. No one solves the murders and who suspects of others often choses a target among the people he didn't like (Natsuhi believes it was Eva who dirtied her door). I also wouldn't say Battler is completely wrong. Humans aren't completely black or white. Battler sees the nice side of many people who exists, along with the dark one. Eva was a playful and funny aunt and a loving wife and mother. She also happened to have a horrible relation with Krauss that was made worse by Krauss' actions and her own need for money. But what really matters is if she hadn't been put in a certain situation probably she would have never shot him in Ep 3. She wasn't an inborn killer, a cold person that callously would get rid of who's on her way, family and enemies alike. Like everyone however could do wrong stuffs. Quote:
The real problem though is it's presented not as a possibility but as THE truth and Ange can't do nothing but reject it because she's not interested in speculations and memories of prior 1986. Actually I think warm memories and accepting that the adults weren't monsters but normal people that ended up doing bad things could help her but at the moment what she feels as her need is completely different. Some pain killers need to be taken on a full stomach. But when you're madly in pain and someone presents you with food and you don't know a full stomach is necessary to eat the painkiller you might reject it and demand the painkiller. Then you'll take it and feel worse than before. Quote:
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Honestly I don't know what to think about the narrator. So far the only logical conclusion seems that the story we read and the story in the message bottles were different at least in terms of narration... because Ep 4 too confirms the messages were supposed to be written by Maria and not by Battler. Let's see if the new chapter will clear things up? |
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2014-04-23, 17:20 | Link #34385 |
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Translation time!!!
Honestly, it really kills me that I don't have the full chapters...I'm just burning to fill everybody in as well, once I have them. Spoiler for Translation:
On the one hand, wow I wanna be in Japan finally, so I can get this and read it completely and... On the other hand...wow, this is kinda how I imagined it to have happened, but seeing it actually put to paper makes it kinda even more obvious how insane Sayo was in the end... Yes, it's over the top, it's crazy, but it is very much in style of mystery stories and you could say that this is also a trope that the story has to fullfill. And honestly, I kinda like it how her whole mindset is put together, even though it makes her a little less of a good guy. Honestly, most of what she said is, at least from her limited perspective, quite true. But, I didn't find it anywhere that she truly DID write Banquet and Alliance. Yes, stories like these were among her's...but it isn't clearly said that they were her's |
2014-04-23, 18:36 | Link #34386 | |
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I also hope once you'll be in Japan you won't forget about us and share some of the new stuffs you'll learn! Well, the point is that the scenes are drawn exactly like the ones in the manga for Banquet and Alliance. Of course the author might have recycled them but it seems a clear hint those were hers as well. Oh well, we'll see if more will be revealed about it... And now some thoughts on the new stuffs. Geez, thank you, Genji. I tried to tell myself you couldn't be like that but you're exactly as I fear you were. When someone tells you, I'm desperate and suicidal and I also think to murder the whole family you don't tell them 'sure, go on, I'll lend you a hand' you at least try going with the 'is there anything I can do to help you feel better? By the way, I think the family will have to take a long holiday this year... in a place that's not Rokkenjima...' Okay, okay, sarcasm aside it's horrible to see Genji being supportive of Sayo in THIS way, expecially when you read short after she wanted to be stopped! I must track down which was my theory for the rules because... I can't remember it at all! But I wonder... did Sayo change rule X or it's a mistyping and in the manga they should have written rule Z? It's nice to know that golden butterflies can be seen even if you're not dead yet but about to. And it's sad to hear her admit she was used to play with delusions. True but sad. Her killing over and over reminds of Maria in Ep 4... only she doesn't seem to get the same "peace" as Maria if we can call it "peace"... LOL, it's kind of fun to hear her thoughts about Kinzo. I guess she didn't share Genji's feelings of letting him rest in peace. I'm not sure about Gohda... which personal deal did he strike? Gohda seems to be the only one who doesn't know about Kinzo's death... so he's just a worker for Natsuhi... It's also nice to have confirmation she hid her identity from the accomplices. Uhm... Maria gets strangled in Ep 3... either this isn't considered desecrating her body or yes, Ep 3 isn't written by her... but really, since the island explodes there's not much point in not desecrating Maria's body as her jaw in the end will be flying around... I love the meeting with Lambda that's sort of a trasposition of one of the tips. Actually I was mentally complaining it wasn't included in Tsubasa but now I can see why. In a way she sounds terribly naive. Yeah, I've read this in a mystery book, it surely works. Yes, it's a piece of cake bribe almost all the adults and make them paws. And terribly desperate in how she wanted to be stopped... and be stopped by Battler. Not George or Jessica. Battler. And so... in each bottle there was a confession also? The game doesn't really talk about them, were they removed before showing the bottles? That's odd... |
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2014-04-23, 20:03 | Link #34387 |
Just... disturbed.
Join Date: Dec 2009
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Genji has always been Genji. He was never a friend. He was loyal to a fault. That's why when she said she wanted to die, he would just agree to help her. Not do what a friend should do - try to convince her otherwise. I think Genji himself was pretty suicidal too after Kinzo's death.
I don't think she included confessions in the message bottles. It's just that the tales she wrote were "supposed" to be confessions IF you can unveil the mysteries within. After all, throughout the tales she wrote, the only culprit could've been Sayo Yasuda. And I think Maria was strangled by Eva in Ep3 so that she could tell no tales. Ep3 was the one that was usurped by Eva partway through the murders. Eva was killin', Sayo was cleaning up her mess and stakin'. And thanks so so much for the translations, haguruma. It's really tragic.
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2014-04-23, 22:22 | Link #34388 |
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The part about the butterflies is interesting but doesn't make complete sense given what we saw in part 2. Rosa never really notices the butterflies till the very end before she dies, but they were there since early in the episode creeping up on her. RK07 mentions that this was a pretty important hint. So is this a revelation that EP2 Rosa wasn't really bribed but was an unwitting accomplice? Does being threatened, like in the Rosa+Battler Ougon story, count as being bribed?
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2014-04-23, 23:09 | Link #34389 | |
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Join Date: Sep 2010
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hagurama, I cannot overstate how thankful I am for the translation. Even for things that we were more or less 99% certain of, that final 1% is a real treasure. Also, I find it hilarious that at least, thus far, the issue of Ange's exclusion from the conference is going entirely ignored. |
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2014-04-23, 23:56 | Link #34390 |
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uhm... when did Yasu write Banquet after finding out that Eva survived? I don't think she had much time for that until dying...
And I hope this is no "she accidently guessed right that Eva may be the only survivor". That would be a bit too much of a "coincidence", even for the Umineko scale. And so we another point that makes the RandomStrangerIkuko theory retroactively less likely, although it was seemingly the most likely possibility until now...
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2014-04-24, 04:39 | Link #34391 | ||||||||
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I'm not saying anybody in the EP7 Teaparty was kind, but at least some of them were making valid points. Krauss IS the one to go to if you want to exchange the gold slowly and without much hassle, Eva SHOULD have gone to jail for what was probably an accident, but we don't know what the people saying these words were actually thinking since it is highly suggested that we are seeing the events through a 3rd person personal perspective of Eva. Quote:
Or look at a series like Unsolved Mysteries, that showed (besides supernatural occurences) also murders, abductions and serial killings. Or even shows like Law & Order or Cold Case, which took some of their inspiration from current headlines to heighten the feeling of "authenticity" to the crimes they described. But as Renall already pointed out, the only unrealistic thought is that anything would ever stop the Witch Hunters. What is likely though is that their interest would die down to a certain degree over time. Quote:
EP3 actually looks much more like a weird EP5'esque scenario. It is either Eva doing the killings and Yasu trying to make them look like her's in order to make Battler find his way to her, or it is Yasu doing the killings and using Eva as a cover-up. Both is kinda supported by the narrative, but especially EP3 doesn't really fit into the rules explained in Confession right now.
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Though we'll have to wait till more is revealed, since this would create a slight inconsistency with Battler/Tohya realizing the truth during EP5. Unless of course Ikuko is a real bitch and didn't even show him that confession when creating Banquet and Alliance. Quote:
Sayo herself admits that Gohda is a petty villain without much thought to the whole thing beyond fame and riches. Quote:
We see her practically breaking down in tears when writing about killing George and Jessica. She is so delusional about the idea that it would definitely be Battler who solves the epitaph... But I think the biggest mistake she made was, thinking that the person arriving at the underground VIP room would definitely turn off the bomb and let everybody survive. That was the biggest inconsistency in her own reasoning. And so... in each bottle there was a confession also? The game doesn't really talk about them, were they removed before showing the bottles? That's odd...[/QUOTE] What she meant was, like already said here, every one of these stories is a confession and as long as you follow the rules she created you will arrive at the culprit Yasuda Sayo/Beatrice/Shkannon. She also apparently wrote (have to check that in the actual manga) at the start of Confession that this was the one bottle that she never wanted to reach the shore. Yet it kinda fits the theme of her roulette again, to toss in an obvious confession as well. Quote:
Also, I found Sayo's choice of words interesting. When she said she wanted to die with the whole household, she spoke of shinjuu with her whole household. Shinjuu is a concept that fans of Japanese period dramas will have definitely encountered before (anybody else I'm not sure). It is written with the kanji for heart and center and in it's other (more archaic) interpretation it meant "one's true mind and devotion". Shinjuu is often translated today as lover's suicide (since that is how it often appears in plays) but there is also the Shinjuu of a whole family. This often happens when family heads see themselves unable to face hardships or overcome troubles, so they prefer to be with their loved ones in death. So Sayo basically says that the murders are her cover-up for her actual plan, being together with her family in death. |
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2014-04-24, 04:46 | Link #34392 | ||
Detective, Witch, Pirate.
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Ruins of the Golden Land
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Wow, I can't thank you enough for the translations!!! Only this makes me look forward to the EP8 manga all the more. The material is so juicy, and the illustrations gorgeous as always! And finally, we see Yasu treated as a real villain. But... um... I know jjblue beat me to it but I just want to say.... Genji!!! Oh Genji! What the hell??? Yes he is to blame for screwing up her life in every possible way, but that's no reason to do the same thing to the entire family and even screw up Yasu some more! Geez..... If there is an award for the worst and most convenient for the plot characterisation, then I nominate Genji! I'm sure he's going to get it! I also really like the hint about the golden butterflies, but I suddenly feel stupid for not thinking too deeply about them. Quote:
I also like the idea of Rudolf and Kyrie being the accomplices, but then having to be disposed of when the gold is solved and the ceremony stops.
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2014-04-24, 05:16 | Link #34393 | |||
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Location: Rokkenjima
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At least that can be explained a bit better by the next line as Yasu being so nuts at this point that she thought everyone connected to the Ushiromiyas should just die. I'm going to have to read that translation a bunch of times more. It's a bit hard for it to sink in. There's definitely a blurring of reality and the bottle stories going on there. She wrote her stories in a frenzied state, certainly, but how much of it she brought into reality or was capable of bringing into reality I don't know. She does sound villainous there. It does look as if Genji really was AOK with "supporting" Yasu no matter how suicidal and crazy and in need of genuine support she was. What is it with him? It could be loyalty on his part, but maybe with Kinzo dead, Genji didn't really want to live either and no longer cared about anything. Quote:
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2014-04-24, 08:14 | Link #34394 | ||||
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But yes, Genji is a horrible human being for giving up on life. I think the problem is that he himself doesn't believe in anything getting better from this point onwards, so he will just serve as a tool for the person he screwed up, just like he served as a tool for the person he loved... Quote:
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This seems to be the final page of the Confession-arc: Spoiler for Translation:
It really paints a sad picture of a woman who got so caught up in her delusions that she became unable to think of anything else, she couldn't stand one more day without thinking of putting an end to this horrible family...and looking at her life that is really kinda tragic since she herself was the one who became unable to see things with love and she knew it. Last edited by haguruma; 2014-04-24 at 08:28. |
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2014-04-24, 08:22 | Link #34395 | ||
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Plus note she can't exactly come up with justifications for the people she loves most. She knows if she were capable of going through with this plan that she'd have to do it, but can she really be so cold as to kill Jessica and George? I mean maybe she thinks Maria is better off dead and maybe she thinks Battler wronged her by not returning, but what did those two ever do to her? She's already acknowledged previously that the fault in those instances was hers. If she's being honest with herself (and we know she's capable of it), she can't easily justify that. It's one thing to write about yourself as being capable of such an act, and quite another to actually do it. Particularly when you want someone to stop you. Also, assuming the translation is accurate, we have a rather... curious set of lines here: Quote:
I mean, if she actually did what she believed she could do, it'd be odd to say her sins wouldn't have existed without this sequence. She could easily have decided to commit murder and then done so, and that would be the sin. Plus this part in the manga comes after all those previous parts about the BoOT and whatnot, so from a dramatic standpoint it really makes no sense to play up the depths of her despair and the extent of her planning and her desire to be stopped by Battler if the endgame is just "Yeah and then the adults killed everyone for money and Battler never even did anything." Obviously Battler couldn't and didn't prevent the tragedy, but he must've done something, otherwise this entire section is a whole lot of hand-wringing and retreading of territory that we're already mostly aware of. If we don't see some of Battler's POV later I'll be right ticked about it.
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2014-04-24, 09:03 | Link #34396 | |
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It is vague even in the original Japanese and I think there are several ways to read these. 1) The most boring one: By writing them down she gave her plan a clear form that can be traced back later and her Golden Land can technically be destroyed. If she were just to make the bomb explode then "her crime" would be non-existent in a way as well. 2) The more likely one: Since she keeps claiming in this chapter that she went mad over writing these but at the same time couldn't stop anymore, it is quite likely that she blames herself for backing herself into this corner. If she hadn't imagined it again and again then her mindset would have never become like this. 3) The poetic one: She knows deep down that she is unable to commit these crimes and will likely fail or be foiled, but she still cannot back down and hopes that her sin might be discovered because it even comes into existence on more than paper. |
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2014-04-24, 17:27 | Link #34397 | ||||
Detective, Witch, Pirate.
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Location: Ruins of the Golden Land
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But putting that aside, having the epitaph solved and herself renduced to 'furniture' to whomever solves it is amongst the possible results the rulette may bring. Perhaps seeing that outcome as well is also important to understanding the depths of her madness and determination. Since she has come this far, she is willing to follow the rules to the very end. Quote:
Aside from the fact that I am totally against the adults money-slaughter, Battler's account of the events is essential. Exactly how did he escape from the island? Doesn't it seem too convenient for him to be unable to recall anything about it? If we can trust the narrative of EP8, Yasu showed him to the underground passage and helped him escape, he must have had questions about it, so how did she respond? I refuse to believe Battler just stood around while people died and then coincidentally found himself being the only survivor (much like Kinzo in the war...)
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2014-04-24, 20:38 | Link #34398 | |||||||||||||||
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Because if it was just a job of course Gohda would want to get paid. The fact that getting personal gain here seems to be seen as negative makes me think there's more than what it seems. Maybe Gohda's true nature was revealed in a missing page and here we get a 'summary' that we can't really comprehend. We know that originally Gohda should have had a relation with Natsuhi and that the plan was scrapped... but maybe not as completely as we think... On the other side Yasu could be merely referring to all the times Gohda put her in a bad spot to take advantage of it and shine in Natsuhi's eyes. Quote:
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It's a matter of fact he sees golden butterflies half a hour before dying but how could we know his point of view wasn't reliable anymore? Especially when this doesn't happen in Ep 1 (VN version because the anime shows them...), Ep 3 & 4. Quote:
In Our confession Yasu had no problems showing the gold to Krauss and Natsuhi so it can be here she showed it to Eva and that's represented by 'young Eva' helping Eva solving the epitaph. 'Young Eva' claims she's not Eva and have no qualms killing Hideyoshi and George. My guess is that Sayo this time hid not behing the illusion of Beatrice but behind the illusion of Eva Beatrice. I guess Rudolf and Kyrie could have been bribed into being accomplices. The same happens in Ep 4 where Kyrie is clearly an accomplice. Quote:
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I've been wondering if this can be represented by MetaErika who wanted to become the witch of truth and GM and that tried to do so by using Battler also while Battler was busy finding a way out of the logic error (which could be compared to Tohya finding a way through his memories?) Maybe Ikuko wasn't as bad as Erika but if the whole thing is just symbolism it can work... I guess. Alternatively it could be represented by Lambda who claimed she understood Beato's game but ended up making a loveless game. Quote:
Honestly I think the mistake was to write Beatrice's letter in such way. She wanted it to help and yet it likely does the opposite. Battler isn't interested in the gold that much so, beyond pocking at it for the fun of it, he likely didn't pay much attention to the epitaph. Once the letter arrives the relatives make a horrible show of themselves and that's what takes away most of his focus. When the murders start he has more important things in his mind than the epitaph. In fact Battler solves the epitaph (or better is made to solve it but we don't know how much of the solution come from him and how much was suggested to him) the time in which the letter doesn't arrive because the atmosphere is more relaxed and there's someone with whom to play at solving it. Still he's having fun at playing with the epitaph until he realizes the implications of solving it. Yasu wanted Battler to solve the epitaph but basically challenged him in the wrong way. At least that's what happens in the games. In Prime it might be Battler too solved the epitaph only... after the adults solved it. Quote:
She can't take it anymore and she tells Genji and all he does is telling her 'ok, go on'? We know she wanted to be stopped. As older and wiser and responsible for the situation, shouldn't he have tried to help his mistress instead than just calling himself out? Shouldn't he at least have tried to make her reason? She was internally screaming for help, if he had done something, if he had given her hope, if he had given her emotional support maybe the pressure on her would have decreased and she would have changed her plans. Quote:
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If she starts crying while writing of killing people it's really hard to assume she would manage to stay emotionless while doing it. Especially in Ep 2 where Jessica is killed pretty early on. Quote:
By following Yasu's mindset it could be that she viewed the tragedy that resulted as a consequence of her own sins even if in the end she did nothing and wouldn't have managed to do nothing. She's pretty stressing on how Battler is sinning by not remembering his 'promise' (by the way in the translation of Ep 7 the word "promise" is never mentioned even if there's to say he told her with certain that he woul come back next year so maybe this was enough for her) and how this sin is the cause of everything so maybe she judged with equal severity the fact she fantasized over committing a crime. Quote:
Ask someone to help her! No, really, Genji's character development is poor so maybe his actions make sense but I can't see it very well. Quote:
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2014-04-24, 21:00 | Link #34399 |
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This article was updated with info about the new chap but from what can I read from google translate it doesn't seem to add anything we didn't know already...
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2014-04-24, 23:19 | Link #34400 | |
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These are really important questions and we just don't know! The way it's set up, it could kinda go either way. Eva might or might not have known Battler was alive. Battler might or might not have made a conscious decision regarding his role in things. After all, Tohya doesn't necessarily know what Battler intended to do with whatever knowledge he had late on the 5th or early on the 6th of October, and in the time thereafter leading up to the state he was in when he became Tohya. Although it seems probable that Eva must have consciously avoided some detail if she knew about Battler's survival. In fact, if the two had contact with one another on the 6th I'd almost have to think they had to be in collusion, but I don't know quite why Battler wouldn't want to be found. If they split up or if Battler was worried Eva would accuse him of something it'd make sense that way, but then it'd mean they each independently decided not to say anything at the least.
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