Mahou Senki Lyrical Nanoha Force Manga Discussion

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by Arkeus

stronger doesn't imply a lack in others.

Weren't they talking about the presence though?

Originally Posted by Arkeus

Except they aren't described as such. Given that there seems to be a 'magical potential lottery' and that working can increase raw power only so much (though it increases a lot of things), it is no wonder people who have very low magical potential would prefer to not waste time learning magic.

It wouldn't be efficient for Regius to waste years to learn a D-rank attack spell when he could use it becoming a officer.

Uh, if you heard that you would be able to use magic, no matter how small, if you trained hard enough, wouldn't you jump at the chance? Seriously, efficiency be damned, anyone here would jump at the chance even if at most they'd only be able to lift a cup.

And yeah, linker cores aren't 'described as such' that's the main problem, really. But if we want to get nitpicky on analysis, having a linker core means you're able to use magic, no matter how small or insignificant. Not being able to use magic would imply, well, no linker core.

[Arkeus]

Originally Posted by Keroko

Uh, if you heard that you would be able to use magic, no matter how small, if you trained hard enough, wouldn't you jump at the chance? Seriously, efficiency be damned, anyone here would jump at the chance even if at most they'd only be able to lift a cup.

Yes, and that's because magic isn't common place.

[Keroko]

And for a society where magic is the cornerstone of civilization it would any different... how? Seriously, considering magic is the way of getting into places, that would only motivate people more.

[Akiyoshi]

Probably because procesing mana doesen't equals to being able to use magic. Probably there are linker cores too atrophied to be properly raised, the fact that you have a linker core doesen't guarantee that you can make it grow and learn to use magic, mana is supposedly something close to the "life energy" stored in every living thing and that is essential not only to magic but also for other needs, i don't know if the Nanohaverse use this concept but the effects of Tohma's Divider Zero Eclipse made me think so, even people arguably unable to use magic got affected by the extreme magic-cancelling power of the attack, probably the basic linker core can't anything besides regulate our life energy, while more developed ones(be by natural selection or by continuous intergenerational growth by a family of active mages) can do more than just regulate mana and become able to process it faster and increase the amount of mana stored beyond their own body's needs.

Wow, we can talk about this for hours xD

[Keroko]

And it's about something not involving the Hucks or Signum for a change.

But back to subject, now you're saying 'linker cores too atrophied to be properly raised.' I don't really see how this is an explanation preferable over just saying they have no linker core. If linker cores were really 'too atrophied' than they should not have had such a fierce reaction too Thoma's divider to begin with, so that reasoning is full of holes from the get-go. It's much easier to assume that divide zero does something besides just cancel magic, which is supported by the fact that it also heavily affected eclipse abilities. Despite not being magic, these abilities were canceled just as equally.

The previously made comparison with redundant evolutionary muscles doesn't hold up either. There is a reason why, for example, even those few people who can still use their auricular muscles can only manage a wiggle at best. Because evolution scrapped the rotation feature from our ears. If linker cores were in the same situation, we would have a large majority of the people who can't use magic, and a minor part who can make sparks fly, not a large part of the population who can't use magic and a minor part who can blow up entire streetblocks.

And that's just for earth, on Mid there is such a variety of strength in linker cores that the redundant evolution theory is quite frankly shred to pieces.

[Akiyoshi]

Of course this can be still aplied to fictional evolution theory xD! We know how evolution and natural selection works in real life which makes this(and 90% of the powers presented in any media) absolutely unplausible. But since the linker core is an "eteral" organ we can stretch our imagination a bit. There's the X-Men for example, the mutations according to Marvel universe are a step in evolution of mankind(of some genetic code apparently) which instead on only allow a person to have six fingers or move the ears it go on an extreme jump and give them flat out mutant powers. I don't think the linker core thing is such an extreme case but can be more moderately similar. Mid-childa have a vast population of mages and no mages but that can also be atributed to their previous multicultural nature, they have people from various places, some places with a high rate of "gifted" persons who can use magic and some with a low rate which produce a majority of non-magic users.

Also the gap between magic and non-magic users isn't as big as you're depicting. Nanoha is the "Ace of Aces" and Hayate a feared(by some) official for a reason, there are few the mages that can pull off such a massive display of destructive power(take the redshirts for example, everytime they're present during one of our heroines's displays of power they look at the feat in amazement like saying "holy beans! i wish i'll be able to do something at least as half as awesome as that!" ), and there are mages from a wide range of capabilities and levels, it's just that we only get to look at the top tiers the majority of the time. But there are mages unable to do something more impressive than project a shield(to put things into perspective, being a flying redshirt in the nanohaverse is already a pretty high accomplishement for a mage). While it's true that there's the possibility that a few hundreds of mages equally or more powerfull than our heroines exist in this verse, there's also the fact that there are millions of lower ranked mages and probably billions of non-magic users.

From this point of view i think theorically everyone have at least the biological basis to be turned into a mage, but in practice only those biologically suitable to take that step are the ones who develop healthy, trainable linker cores.

[Keroko]

Of course, the same stretching of our imagination logic means that the "no magic = no linker core" reasoning is just as plausible, and more reasonable when people say that they can't use magic.

And I'm aware of the difference between magical classes, that's why I said on mid there's all kinds of levels. When it comes to earth though, so far it's been either no magic or city-buster level magic.

[Akiyoshi]

Originally Posted by Keroko

Of course, the same stretching of our imagination logic means that the "no magic = no linker core" reasoning is just as plausible, and in fact more reasonable when people say that they can't use magic.

And that's why we can spend all the day spewing reasons and theories about this, but for now it's time for breakfast xD!

Wow! we've finished quickly than i thought xD

[Arkeus]

Originally Posted by Keroko

And I'm aware of the difference between magical classes, that's why I said on mid there's all kinds of levels. When it comes to earth though, so far it's been either no magic or city-buster level magic.

that might actually be because of what you said before.

On mid, people of middling abilities raise them. On earth, the only ones that gets known are the extraordinary ones.

BTW, being a mage doesn't give that much of a rank either in TSAB- being a *powerful* one does, but apparently even for talented people A rank is a impassable wall.

[Keroko]

Maybe, but until we get to see weaker mages, it's either no magic or powerful magic for earth.

And even just being a mage sets your career rolling rather fine. Look at Teana, Subaru and Ginga they were doing just fine. The former not extraordinary until they got picked up by RF6, but very fine nonetheless. Ginga managed just fine by herself. Not to mention it's a job they can dive into very early.

[itanshi1]

unless nanoha is secretly half mid childan <.<; hee

[Skane]

Originally Posted by itanshi1

unless nanoha is secretly half mid childan <.<; hee

Except we already know who her parents are. Nanoha is a rare example of a non-orphan Heroine. Heck, they even retcon her father back to life.

Cheers.

[RadiantBeam]

Originally Posted by Skane

Except we already know who her parents are. Nanoha is a rare example of a non-orphan Heroine. Heck, they even retcon her father back to life.

Cheers.

They could always retcon her parents being regular humans, if they really feel like it. Here's hoping they won't, though.

[Arkeus]

Originally Posted by Keroko

And even just being a mage sets your career rolling rather fine. Look at Teana, Subaru and Ginga they were doing just fine. The former not extraordinary until they got picked up by RF6, but very fine nonetheless. Ginga managed just fine by herself. Not to mention it's a job they can dive into very early.

They were all doing much better than just 'fine', Teana being a very strong mage from a Elite family, and Ginga/Subaru being combat cyborgs.

You aren't talking baout average people at all here, much less weak ones. The whole point of the teana debacle was how she was merely very very gifted amongst monsters, and that made her ignore how far above gifted people she was.

[TheRainbowConnection]

Originally Posted by Arkeus

Teana being a very strong mage from a Elite family

Where did you get this impression? Tiida was portrayed as a failure who was mocked even in death. Yeah, he was a Captain in the Air Force, and even if it's worth more than being in the Ground Forces, a Captaincy is like the military's equivalent of low-level corporate management. And as far as I know, we don't know about the other Lansters aside from MY FAMILY IS DEAAAAAAAAAAAD. Everything about them screams "average", leading to the chip on Teana's shoulder.

That said, Tea and Subaru graduated at the top of their class and performed with distinction at their billet at the 386th. So yes, she sold herself short.

[Alavon]

Originally Posted by TheRainbowConnection

Where did you get this impression? Tiida was portrayed as a failure who was mocked even in death. Yeah, he was a Captain in the Air Force, and even if it's worth more than being in the Ground Forces, a Captaincy is like the military's equivalent of low-level corporate management. And as far as I know, we don't know about the other Lansters aside from MY FAMILY IS DEAAAAAAAAAAAD. Everything about them screams "average", leading to the chip on Teana's shoulder.

That said, Tea and Subaru graduated at the top of their class and performed with distinction at their billet at the 386th. So yes, she sold herself short.

Before heading off to bed....isn't Nanoha a Captain?

[Akiyoshi]

As much as i can remember Tilda Lanster was a pretty good mage with some reputation until that incident, and pretty un common for what we've seen on the series so far he was mocked for his failure and dishonored in death, which i find very suspicious as it seems to be a bit of an exaggerateds reaction to a respectable officer making a mistake(i know some fans are whinny fanboys like me but this really looks strange in-universe).

[itanshi1]

yeah its very hard to not suspect a cover up

[FlameSparkZ]

Yeah, I think he was used as a scapegoat.
All blames on the incident were placed on him and everyone believed it...except Teana.

[TheRainbowConnection]

Originally Posted by Alavon

Before heading off to bed....isn't Nanoha a Captain?

Yeah, in what would technically be a rear-echelon posting, no less. But her skill is less reflected in her rank and permanent billet (Air Instructor) than in her temporary ones (RF6, SDS6, and every other time she is randomly loaned out for special missions). I guess SpecOps in the TSAB is like a side job or turning in extra credit or something.

Originally Posted by Akiyoshi

which i find very suspicious as it seems to be a bit of an exaggerateds reaction to a respectable officer making a mistake

All a part of the attempt of everything post-A's to make the TSAB look as shady as possible once you get past its excellent social welfare safety net.

Still, whether or not there was a cover-up surrounding Tiida's demise, there is no indication that Teana came from any sort of distinguished pedigree.