Yuri/Yaoi goggles are OK.

[Sound of Azure]

Originally Posted by ahelo

The point why I started this thread is to actually question this notion we have? Why is it annoying for you that people have their goggles on and see these characters as not straight? Do the characters get ruined because some people think their gay. When people allude same sex friendship to a relationship, does it ruin the characters for you in that very unlikely situation that they could be gay, hence the annoyance?

Yet no one bats an eye when two characters of the opposite sex who are probably just friends get paired off. Why is it (I'm just generalizing from my own observations) that less people get annoyed when this happens on the other hand?

I can't speak for Chiibi, but I do occasionally get irritated with ship-talk. Most are fine as you say, happy to talk about their favourite ships, even offering reasonable arguments an counter arguments as to the merits of said ship.

It's the very insistent and vocal ones that get my goat- the "It's so obvious, you're delusional if you cannot see the romance there" type, when situation can be interpreted in different ways, or there are multiple potential partners. This trait is shared by annoying shippers or all stripes.

The only thing different about "homo-shipping" is the propensity for the irritating shippers to accuse others of being homophobic, being blinded by "het-goggles", or other asinine insults- simply for not investing in the favoured ship. That's likely as irritating to people being accused of being a slave to the yuri/yaoi goggles.

I'm happy to let you ship what you wanna, just don't be a tool to people who aren't interested in it. All that on the proviso that the non-shipper isn't actually homo/trans/etc-phobic.

Originally Posted by Akuma Kinomoto

Honestly, I'm glad someone mentioned Wandering Son, because if you want to have gay characters you need a story revolving around them and it shouldn't be a side effect of the romance. We must constantly remind people that there's always a social issue with homosexuality instead of entertaining the idea it can just happen. It's just common sense.

Absolutely. Heck, I'd apply that to romances in general. I'm a sucker for sappy romance slice-of-life stories, but it's all the more amazing if there's an amazing story surrounding the romance.

Just my 2 cents. I hope I didn't ramble too much.

TL;DR. I don't care if you ship, just follow Wheaton's Law when dealing with people who don't share your ship. Please.

[Moka_37]

As I stated I actually don't care if people think Kumiko and Reina are friends. I was mostly just responding to people who were implying they are annoyed at others who ship because there's no way the ship could be real. So my post wasn't directed at people who don't see the Kumiko Reina ship, but instead people who refuse it's possible and get angry at others for shipping i because of this. That's basically the same thing you are angry about but in reverse I think? Anyway, sorry to the Kumiko x Shuichi fans,forgot to think of you guys as I wrote my post. I could honestly care less who others ship. Anyway I know I'm bad at getting my point across, but it's not my fault and apart of the reason I joined this forum was to work on that haha so I should hopefully get better eventually xD Anyway, it's not like I have any previous experience talking about ships so I will use this newly learned social info for the future~ I do find the notion that if they have romance but are the same sex it's only possibly real if they have a story a bit offensive though... Also people are sometimes blinded by Hetero goggles, just as I'm blinded by yuri goggles. It might be an offensive term and it probably has a more appropriate term, but most of the time it's just a harmless phenomenon that plays a hand in the way we see things.

[ahelo]

Originally Posted by Akuma Kinomoto

You've gotta be kidding. It's impossible for two people of the opposite sex to be just friends. Clannad is dishonest with Tomoya and Kotomi's strong friendship, for example, while Kyousuke and Kirino from Oreimo is a genuine example of how all romance should be. Honestly, I'm glad someone mentioned Wandering Son, because if you want to have gay characters you need a story revolving around them and it shouldn't be a side effect of the romance. We must constantly remind people that there's always a social issue with homosexuality instead of entertaining the idea it can just happen. It's just common sense.

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to look for Reina X Shuichi fanart. Such a lovely couple~

But that's the thing, while I love Wandering Son to bits and wish there were more anime like it, can gay characters only appear in focused dramas like these or just thrown away as joke side characters? Because in real life, gays are everywhere (I guess my own personal wish is for mainstream media to show gay characters existing without it being such a big deal). Also, when you use Kirino and Kyousuke as an example of romance, I just don't know where your going with your reply anymore.

[winhlp32]

Originally Posted by ahelo

But that's the thing, while I love Wandering Son to bits and wish there were more anime like it, can gay characters only appear in focused dramas like these or just thrown away as joke side characters? Because in real life, gays are everywhere (I guess my own personal wish is for mainstream media to show gay characters existing without it being such a big deal).

That's exactly what he wants. Akuma Kinomoto was acting sarcastic with his remark.

[Archon_Wing]

Glasslip...

Spoiler:

had a bisexual character without much fuss. However, it was Glasslip.

[GDiddy]

Originally Posted by Chiibi

I find it freakining annoying.....that's just me though. But people going like "OMG, THEY'RE SO GAY".....because a same sex friendship is totally unheard of right?

Yeah, that's super annoying.

Why do you care if someone ships two MCs of the same sex together even though they're just friends? People are gonna ship whatever they wanna ship. Hell, in my observations over the years, there could be two characters in a scene, no matter what their gender is, and even if the characters don't interact, there are shippers who will go, 'OMG TRU LUV'


I can't be the only one who seriously does not give a damn either way, am I?

[ahelo]

Originally Posted by winhlp32

That's exactly what he wants. Akuma Kinomoto was acting sarcastic with his remark.

I swear I have no idea how I did not get the joke hahahahahha. Though all my sentiments still apply.

[risingstar3110]

While people being annoyed by the potential of "delusional shippers" as it was put. In the opposite direction, let's be honest, there is definitely a level of homophobic even in this forum that was generally uncontested, isn't it?

I means it's not that unusual to see people claiming publicly to drop an anime/ show if it's going yuri/yaoi. Sorry, but what would anyone think if i declare to drop a show if there is a black character appear on it, or if the main character picks one as his/her romantic partner? Similarly with bringing in real life statistics. How racist will it sound like if i claims for someone to lose a competition/ love contest simply because real life statistics indicated those with that specific background often statistically perform worse in study/sport/girls/whatever? You just strip off a person's character/personality and make an assumption based on his/ her gender/ethnic....etc. That should be wrong, isn't it?


But don't misunderstand me. I don't complain about it through. I think freedom of expression is precious on internet, and no matter how irritated you find one argument is, it actually reflect the real world. That's why don't think whatever made you feel irritated means it's wrong. Because others may think the same things about you. Especially if you think about it, yuri/yaoi fans loves to argue for their case just like any of the hetero shipper do. And shipper in the opposite direction of any ship is simply annoying, that's fact

[Akito Kinomoto]

Freedom of expression doesn't mean freedom from criticism. You'd also have to look at the context of how people are dropping a show. Did the same-sex couple come out of nowhere or has it been slowly burning? Is it brought up in passing or is it one of the show's focal points? There's usually some argument thrown out how surprise yuri s3x!!1 comes across as fetishistic, but at the same time I don't see this thrown toward different-sex pairings out of nowhere. Het pairings outta nowhere are accused of bad development instead of being fetishistic. For...some reason. But by that point, there's a heft of social implications being brought in and it's not just the writing anymore. In which case, by all means, I beg them to start playing this game.

[Soshishi]

Originally Posted by risingstar3110

I means it's not that unusual to see people claiming publicly to drop an anime/ show if it's going yuri/yaoi.

Reminds me of Shin Sekai Yori

Spoiler for EP 8 Shin Sekai Yori:

When the time skip occurs and every character becomes gay. I recall reading a lot of people dropping the show at that point solely because of the yuri/yaoi shown in that episode. Funnily enough, the big yuri/yaoi moment happens in ep 8, same episode the shit hits the fan in hibike.

From what I've seen, het shippers are usually much more extreme than yuri/yaoi shippers are. Though usually this comes from how most yuri/yaoi shippers know if a series ain't labeled as such, it ain't gonna happen. Heck, most people shipping ReinaxKumiko have a feeling it's not gonna happen but take the bait anyways because the bait is so pretty and polished. With het ships though, since everyone views everything with the idea "straight till proven otherwise" more people ship them and find absurd reasons to ship. Heck, I've seen people ship het ships simply because "OMG HE AND SHE JUST SHARED GLANCES OTP!" Whilst I never see that type of reaction with yuri/yaoi shippers unless those glances are shared multiple times throughout multiple episodes, with a ton of blushing attached. I find it odd when people complain about how "No one sees same sex relationships as platonic" anymore when really I see it as "No one sees opposite sex relationships as platonic". It's really usually when opposite sex characters interact that people start shipping.

Genuinely, I would like it if Kumiko happened to be either gay or bisexual. I find it'd fit with her indecisiveness and fluid personality, along with Reina's desire to be "special". I'm lgbt, but I usually don't ship yuri/yaoi couples. I've tried watching some yuri shows, but the relationships in those were always lacking and made me feel nothing for the characters. ReinaxKumiko is the first yuri ship I've shipped and the only one I've seen out of many that contains a relationship that goes past gay drama. Also, I just think it'd be great to have a show with a lgbt character in it where being lgbt wasn't the main focus of the show(much like with Korra). I genuinely believe Hibike has the potential to be that show, but also in the back of my mind am pretty sure it won't reach that potential.

[risingstar3110]

Originally Posted by Soshishi

Genuinely, I would like it if Kumiko happened to be either gay or bisexual. I find it'd fit with her indecisiveness and fluid personality, along with Reina's desire to be "special". I'm lgbt, but I usually don't ship yuri/yaoi couples. I've tried watching some yuri shows, but the relationships in those were always lacking and made me feel nothing for the characters. ReinaxKumiko is the first yuri ship I've shipped and the only one I've seen out of many that contains a relationship that goes past gay drama. Also, I just think it'd be great to have a show with a lgbt character in it where being lgbt wasn't the main focus of the show(much like with Korra). I genuinely believe Hibike has the potential to be that show, but also in the back of my mind am pretty sure it won't reach that potential.

A bit like me, when i actually enjoy shows where the yuri is much more subtle than actually established. Can't watch that Sakura-something anime for example.

In that way, I think yuri subtext is an entire genre on its own. Where the ambiguity is played to keep you hook, and the ending rarely confirm or deny it into your face, but keep you hang out for more. Shows like Madoka, Nanoha and the old Utena kinda fall into these lines. Then we have others like Hidamari or Chu2 (Shinka x Dekomori). I don't know how many times I wished to see them becoming canon. But in some way i also appreciate the current state, as it leaves the space for imagination and fanfic. At least they don't go out of their way to sink my ships.
(Then you have obvious author like Ume who ship all of her characters, so it's as canon as it get)


That's why I will be very happy with Hibike if they can keep the ReinaxKumiko subtext going. And not shutting it down with a hetero ending. I means imagine if the anime ends with something like ep 8, i think i will die with happiness.

[TinyRedLeaf]

As I expected, the sensitivities of the subject makes it difficult to discuss it without heated statements. But I accept some responsibility for that, given my choice of words.

I've been busy, and I wanted to others to respond before I waded into the discussion again. It also gave me more time to think about how I could better convey my stand without inflaming the discussion again.

I haven't read all the posts in detail and, in any case, they seem to address common points, so my reply will be to all of them in general.

First and foremost, I stand by my original remarks: I am both irritated and offended by "yaoi/yuri" interpretations of ostensibly heterosexual characters.

But, I concede I should have qualified better what I meant.

When I said I can't adequately describe my reaction to the trend, I wasn't implying that I was disgusted beyond words by apparently deviant behaviour. Rather, I was simply stating my honest reaction, while also saying that it's difficult for me to adequately explain where I draw the line between support and distaste over such matters.

There are two parts to my stand: Irritation and taking offence.

(1)
Let me get the irritation bit out of the way first, because it's the easier point to explain: It's the same irritation expressed by a few members here towards "aggressive" 'shipping.

Let me make this very clear: I would be just as irritated by aggressive 'shipping of characters who aren't remotely interested in one another as I am by the aggressive 'shipping of characters as a homosexual couple, when it isn't completely clear if the characters are homosexual.

Or, in short, I find aggressive 'shipping irritating, full stop.

In general, I have absolutely no problems who or what fans want to 'ship together. It's your freedom to imagine or fantasise in whichever way you choose. Just don't be obnoxious about it, and keep insisting that it's either your way or the highway, because you'd only serve to annoy others who don't share your view.


(2)
Now, for the more difficult topic: Why am I offended?

I am offended, sometimes deeply so, when the issue of homosexuality is reduced to caricature, and played either for laughs or titillation.

And to me, that is far more often the case in anime than the exception, as many of you have also observed.

Many of you claim that I can't "see" the homosexuality of Kumiko and Reina because I am apparently too blinded by my "straight" perspective.

Yet, amid such incrimination, I fail to understand why it's apparently impossible to accept that Kumiko and Reina simply share a highly romantic friendship.

Let me categorically state here and now that I couldn't care less about the sexuality of the characters.

Whether they are heterosexual or homosexual doesn't actually matter to me, so long as their relationship serves to support the story rather than distract from it.

(2.1)
Occam's Razor has been cited as a supporting argument for the homosexuality of the characters. It sounds compelling, until we consider that what's "simple and obvious" to you is entirely dependent on what perspectives you have in the first place (which, I haven't forgot, is the point of this thread).

Romantic friendships aren't a new thing in literature. They are at least as old as Shakespeare, to the extent that many modern interpreters of plays like The Merchant of Venice believe that some of his characters are homosexual.

While it's definitely not wrong to apply a modern perspective to interpretations of the play, it would at the same time be a stretch to claim that the characters must be homosexual simply because you see the "obvious" signs of homosexuality.

Here's a thread from another forum where this point was nicely explained:

Originally Posted by OrphanPip

Queer revisionist readings are a tricky business, you don't want to overstep and make anachronistic readings. That however doesn't take away the validity of it as a contemporary reading that may have homoerotic resonances, which may or may not have been intended.

Did Shakespeare write Antonio as gay? Definitely not, he didn't know what a modern conception of gay was. Is there a strong emotional relationship between Antonio and Bassanio? Yes.

We should be aware that the barrier between a homosocial platonic love and a homosexual romantic one is not clear from the outside. There is no clear line that can be drawn to say, these interactions are gay, those ones are straight.

The way the play is written it makes the homosexual relationship a plausible reading, but that is different from it being something Shakespeare intended. So, there is no definite answer that Antonio is gay or straight, I think it is fair to read it either way. Performance choices will often determine how we interpret the relationship.

(2.2)
With regard to anime, it has been frequently pointed out before that close, intimate relationships between young Japanese women aren't unusual, and they also aren't necessarily homosexual.

This point was in fact brought up a few times in the Hibike thread, with at least one member pointing out the well-documented phenomenon of "Class S" relationships, in which women develop crushes on other women, but only temporarily. It's regarded as a common phenomenon that isn't truly homosexual.

The key word here is that it's supposedly common. In fact, it's supposedly much more likely than a true homosexual relationship in Japanese society.

So, if we were indeed to invoke Occam's Razor in the context of Hibike, and with specific reference to Kumiko and Reina's relationship, it seems far more reasonable to me to regard it as an archetypical Class S friendship than a truly homosexual one.


(2.3)
Many fans have also commented within the Hibike thread that it makes much more sense for Kumiko and Reina's relationship to be a friendship than a homosexual coupling.

That's because the friendship builds upon an abiding theme in the anime which, to date, explores the intimate relationships between various members of a dysfunctional concert band, and studies how they are trying their best to turn their club around by being true to their feelings and ambitions.

If, in fact, Kumiko and Reina are a homosexual couple, it is my very strong opinion that the introduction of this plot development only serves to disrupt the story, because viewers are going to be distracted by it.

The story would inevitably become focused on the budding romance, instead of the overall story of a collective effort to turn around a failing organisation.

Now, this opinion has very little to do with whether or not I actually approve or disapprove of Kumiko and Reina as an actual homosexual couple. If they are, more power to them!

But I would find it very disappointing that their homosexuality — if it were indeed the case — had to be introduced in such a manner.

(3)
Which leads me to wonder why their relationship is portrayed and built-up-to in the way it was in Hibike.

It was from this perspective that I brought up the issue of fetishism, and the anime industry's penchant for pandering to such tastes.

This is an open question, as far as I'm concerned. The story is not yet established, at least, not for an anime-only viewer like me.

If it is indeed a peripheral point that KyoAni chose to hype up for the sake of drawing controversial interest, then, to me, this is deeply offensive.

Because, quite simply, how is it beneficial to the LGBT community, when mass media plays up homosexual relationships for the sake of laughs or sexual titillation?

Someone else in this thread had brought up the more egregious examples of such a trend by Mari Okada, who would inexplicably introduce such fringe themes in her stories. And those instances in her stories are what I find offensive.

Clearly, though, there is a problem here about perspective. There are obviously some among the LGBT community who finds solidarity in such anime. And it is clearly ironic that a heterosexual man like me would end up feeling offended on their behalf.


(4)
And that's why I have difficulty adequately explaining why I am offended by all the proponents who aggressively insist that Kumiko and Reina are homosexual — I can't clearly tell if it's because they are delighted that someone is pandering to their fetishes, or if it's because they're overjoyed that someone is promoting acceptance of homosexuality, or if it's a bit of both.

What I do know for certain, at this point in time, is that I'm perfectly happy to simply accept the ambiguity in Kumiko and Reina's relationship. Whether they are gay or not doesn't actually matter, so long as they don't distract from the core message of the anime.

And I would definitely go with the prevailing social norm in Japan — which is to regard their relationship as a Class S friendship — until I have more definitive evidence to decide otherwise.

[Archon_Wing]

Hmm, the only reference to Okada I can see was a half-hearted note by me, and that was more in reference to meandering plotlines that don't really progress the story. Though rest assured, it is in my opinion she is pretty bad at romance of any sexuality.

If it is indeed a peripheral point that KyoAni chose to hype up for the sake of drawing controversial interest, then, to me, this is deeply offensive.

I can understand that for sure but I don't have sufficient info to suggest such a thing that the intent is of controversy, titillation, or some other kind of shameless thing

[Jaden]

Hibike! seems to be putting these goggles on a lot of people.

Even I think it'd be better if that relationship was made canon, because the characters are kind of incomprehensible right now. My initial thoughts of Kumiko and Reina were that they're similar to Yuuta and Rikka in Chuunibyou. One is all "I need to be special!" and the other is attracted by that and cheers her on. If they just added a proper romance as well, there'd be a sense of completion.

But at the same time, you gotta remember what medium you're in. Mainstream anime has precious few credible depictions of homosexual relationships, and this is the studio that did Free!. Master baiters when it comes to showing this kind of thing.

[Akito Kinomoto]

Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

As I expected, the sensitivities of the subject makes it difficult to discuss it without heated statements. But I accept some responsibility for that, given my choice of words.

I've been busy, and I wanted to others to respond before I waded into the discussion again. It also gave me more time to think about how I could better convey my stand without inflaming the discussion again.

I haven't read all the posts in detail and, in any case, they seem to address common points, so my reply will be to all of them in general.

First and foremost, I stand by my original remarks: I am both irritated and offended by "yaoi/yuri" interpretations of ostensibly heterosexual characters.

But, I concede I should have qualified better what I meant.

When I said I can't adequately describe my reaction to the trend, I wasn't implying that I was disgusted beyond words by apparently deviant behaviour. Rather, I was simply stating my honest reaction, while also saying that it's difficult for me to adequately explain where I draw the line between support and distaste over such matters.

There are two parts to my stand: Irritation and taking offence.

(1)
Let me get the irritation bit out of the way first, because it's the easier point to explain: It's the same irritation expressed by a few members here towards "aggressive" 'shipping.

Let me make this very clear: I would be just as irritated by aggressive 'shipping of characters who aren't remotely interested in one another as I am by the aggressive 'shipping of characters as a homosexual couple, when it isn't completely clear if the characters are homosexual.

Or, in short, I find aggressive 'shipping irritating, full stop.

In general, I have absolutely no problems who or what fans want to 'ship together. It's your freedom to imagine or fantasise in whichever way you choose. Just don't be obnoxious about it, and keep insisting that it's either your way or the highway, because you'd only serve to annoy others who don't share your view.


(2)
Now, for the more difficult topic: Why am I offended?

I am offended, sometimes deeply so, when the issue of homosexuality is reduced to caricature, and played either for laughs or titillation.

And to me, that is far more often the case in anime than the exception, as many of you have also observed.

Many of you claim that I can't "see" the homosexuality of Kumiko and Reina because I am apparently too blinded by my "straight" perspective.

Yet, amid such incrimination, I fail to understand why it's apparently impossible to accept that Kumiko and Reina simply share a highly romantic friendship.

Let me categorically state here and now that I couldn't care less about the sexuality of the characters.

Whether they are heterosexual or homosexual doesn't actually matter to me, so long as their relationship serves to support the story rather than distract from it.

(2.1)
Occam's Razor has been cited as a supporting argument for the homosexuality of the characters. It sounds compelling, until we consider that what's "simple and obvious" to you is entirely dependent on what perspectives you have in the first place (which, I haven't forgot, is the point of this thread).

Romantic friendships aren't a new thing in literature. They are at least as old as Shakespeare, to the extent that many modern interpreters of plays like The Merchant of Venice believe that some of his characters are homosexual.

While it's definitely not wrong to apply a modern perspective to interpretations of the play, it would at the same time be a stretch to claim that the characters must be homosexual simply because you see the "obvious" signs of homosexuality.

Here's a thread from another forum where this point was nicely explained:




(2.2)
With regard to anime, it has been frequently pointed out before that close, intimate relationships between young Japanese women aren't unusual, and they also aren't necessarily homosexual.

This point was in fact brought up a few times in the Hibike thread, with at least one member pointing out the well-documented phenomenon of "Class S" relationships, in which women develop crushes on other women, but only temporarily. It's regarded as a common phenomenon that isn't truly homosexual.

The key word here is that it's supposedly common. In fact, it's supposedly much more likely than a true homosexual relationship in Japanese society.

So, if we were indeed to invoke Occam's Razor in the context of Hibike, and with specific reference to Kumiko and Reina's relationship, it seems far more reasonable to me to regard it as an archetypical Class S friendship than a truly homosexual one.


(2.3)
Many fans have also commented within the Hibike thread that it makes much more sense for Kumiko and Reina's relationship to be a friendship than a homosexual coupling.

That's because the friendship builds upon an abiding theme in the anime which, to date, explores the intimate relationships between various members of a dysfunctional concert band, and studies how they are trying their best to turn their club around by being true to their feelings and ambitions.

If, in fact, Kumiko and Reina are a homosexual couple, it is my very strong opinion that the introduction of this plot development only serves to disrupt the story, because viewers are going to be distracted by it.

The story would inevitably become focused on the budding romance, instead of the overall story of a collective effort to turn around a failing organisation.

Now, this opinion has very little to do with whether or not I actually approve or disapprove of Kumiko and Reina as an actual homosexual couple. If they are, more power to them!

But I would find it very disappointing that their homosexuality — if it were indeed the case — had to be introduced in such a manner.

(3)
Which leads me to wonder why their relationship is portrayed and built-up-to in the way it was in Hibike.

It was from this perspective that I brought up the issue of fetishism, and the anime industry's penchant for pandering to such tastes.

This is an open question, as far as I'm concerned. The story is not yet established, at least, not for an anime-only viewer like me.

If it is indeed a peripheral point that KyoAni chose to hype up for the sake of drawing controversial interest, then, to me, this is deeply offensive.

Because, quite simply, how is it beneficial to the LGBT community, when mass media plays up homosexual relationships for the sake of laughs or sexual titillation?

Someone else in this thread had brought up the more egregious examples of such a trend by Mari Okada, who would inexplicably introduce such fringe themes in her stories. And those instances in her stories are what I find offensive.

Clearly, though, there is a problem here about perspective. There are obviously some among the LGBT community who finds solidarity in such anime. And it is clearly ironic that a heterosexual man like me would end up feeling offended on their behalf.


(4)
And that's why I have difficulty adequately explaining why I am offended by all the proponents who aggressively insist that Kumiko and Reina are homosexual — I can't clearly tell if it's because they are delighted that someone is pandering to their fetishes, or if it's because they're overjoyed that someone is promoting acceptance of homosexuality, or if it's a bit of both.

What I do know for certain, at this point in time, is that I'm perfectly happy to simply accept the ambiguity in Kumiko and Reina's relationship. Whether they are gay or not doesn't actually matter, so long as they don't distract from the core message of the anime.

And I would definitely go with the prevailing social norm in Japan — which is to regard their relationship as a Class S friendship — until I have more definitive evidence to decide otherwise.

1. Nobody is telling anybody what they can fantasize about. But there will be criticism thrown out against interpretations of the story proper that don't make sense.

2. Sound! Euphonium has a seriousness to all of Kumiko and Reina's scenes to push them beyond gags.
2.1 Proving Kumiko and Reina's homosexuality is pandering to fetishes while dime a dozen harem series with panty shots, walk ins, and boob grab galore aren't deviant? What?

3. Maria Watches Over Us shows it's possible to portray Class S without sexuality. Sound! Euphonium has not.

4. A story can have romance without being about the romance.

5. The show pushes merit over seniority. Make of that what you will.

There is another KyoAni show I'm thinking of where the two leads don't end up together, and that's fine. But had it ended with them going out with someone else, I can assure you people would call the show on its blunder because of the non-sequitur development. Unless I'm mistaken, in which case I want to know. Kininarimasu~

[risingstar3110]

Originally Posted by Jaden

Hibike! seems to be putting these goggles on a lot of people.

Even I think it'd be better if that relationship was made canon, because the characters are kind of incomprehensible right now. My initial thoughts of Kumiko and Reina were that they're similar to Yuuta and Rikka in Chuunibyou. One is all "I need to be special!" and the other is attracted by that and cheers her on. If they just added a proper romance as well, there'd be a sense of completion.

But at the same time, you gotta remember what medium you're in. Mainstream anime has precious few credible depictions of homosexual relationships, and this is the studio that did Free!. Master baiters when it comes to showing this kind of thing.

I somehow blame/credit this for creating the yuri subtext genre in the first place

As in the trend made a lot of yuri fans still feel content even when things won't spell out for you. Like if two girls hug over the horizon, or walk toward sunset without any guys in sight. It's already as good as a kiss or confession. The studio also can avoid unnecessary backslash from random household mum walked by (and declare anime corrupting their youth)

It's not only yuri through, a certain incest anime also ended up following this approach despite the author want to make the pair as canon as he could

[Kaoru Chujo]

I am so glad I didn't find this thread until today. Lots of good opinions, but I find my perception of Euphonium has shifted so much (back and forth) since ep8 that I'm glad I didn't venture an opinion too early.

At the moment, I'm seeing what TinyRedLeaf refers to as a "romantic friendship" between Kumiko and Reina. The only two things that suggest anything physical are both from ep8: the finger down the face and Kumiko's description of Reina's acceptance of pain as "erotic". Whether those are in the novel or added by KyoAni, I have no idea.

As I never tire of saying, Simoun is my favorite anime. The girl-girl romances there are maybe not as pure as in Marimite, but almost. In Simoun and in Euphonium, what's enjoyable is not the sexuality but the romance (among many other things).

I'm happy to see shows featuring girls as couples, but the way things are treated makes a big difference: I was never able to finish Strawberry Panic, for example, with its coarse and cliched humour.

And the word "Lesbian" seems to me to have almost no application to mainstream anime, except maybe for some characters in Oniisama-e (Brother, Dear Brother). "Yuri" and "shoujo-ai" refer to entertainment genres more than to real sexuality, I think.

[Triple_R]

A couple points in reply to TRL's last post:

1. When I evaluate character actions, what matters the most to me is believability. Does the character's thinking and choices and actions make sense to me? What interpretation of the character does the best job of making sense out of their words and actions, in a way that makes the character seem believable?

More meta-based considerations may have their place, but basic believability (in the sense of "how would I perceive these characters if they were real people?") is the higher priority for me. So when a meta-approach conflicts with basic believability, I tend to favor basic believability (shows that are comedy as a primary genre may be an exception, but that wouldn't apply to Hibike).


2. Now, even when I consider all of this "Class S" at a meta-level, I see it differently than TRL does. Yes, much of it is ambiguous. But in my view, that just means that perceiving the characters as lesbian is viable. In most cases, these "Class S" relationships are not contradicted by either female character being in a relationship with a guy. In other words, the female character is often not romantically attached to a guy, and often does not show any clear interest in a guy, so there's nothing in particular to discourage an interpretation of this female character being lesbian.

I mean, in many cases, the "Class S" relationship makes the most sense to me when I interpret the characters involved as being lesbians. They may not be sexually active yet, but its easy for me to perceive their interests lying in that direction. It should be noted that many prominent het pairings are not unambiguously shown to be sexually active either.

For both yuri and het, we often never get consummation. This is often true even at a merely implied level. But nobody talks about "Class S" het (or an equivalent thereof) where this likely lack of immediate sexual activity necessitates a "romantic friendship" interpretation. I mean, would we say that the leads of Chuunibyou are just in a "romantic friendship"? Or how about the leads of Hyouka? Or how about the leads of The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya?

If yuri was unusually "innocent" here, I think TRL and Kaoru Shoujo's points would have more weight behind them. But anime het pairings are (in)famously innocent themselves. This is especially true of KyoAni shows, and since we're talking about a girl-girl relationship from romantically subtle KyoAni...


So while I think I understand where TRL is coming from, and while I do thank him for clarifying his points, those points haven't really changed my mind on this topic. I don't find his points particularly persuasive.

Originally Posted by Kaoru Chujo

I am so glad I didn't find this thread until today. Lots of good opinions, but I find my perception of Euphonium has shifted so much (back and forth) since ep8 that I'm glad I didn't venture an opinion too early.

At the moment, I'm seeing what TinyRedLeaf refers to as a "romantic friendship" between Kumiko and Reina. The only two things that suggest anything physical are both from ep8: the finger down the face and Kumiko's description of Reina's acceptance of pain as "erotic".

I strongly disagree with this. There has been frequent physical contact between Kumiko and Reina, much of it very romantic-seeming to me. In fact, I found Episode 11 more suggestive here than I found Episode 8.

[Kaoru Chujo]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

...I strongly disagree with this. There has been frequent physical contact between Kumiko and Reina, much of it very romantic-seeming to me. In fact, I found Episode 11 more suggestive here than I found Episode 8.

I know what you are referring to -- and I instinctively see all that as romantic, too. But it seems to me that without that finger lazily tracing the outline of Kumiko's profile, all the rest can be seen as normal girlish contact. With the finger, everything else gets a more romanticized cast. I am still waiting for something more unequivocal before I declare this more than just friendship. But meanwhile, I am enjoying it in the same way I enjoy Marimite (which I am rewatching). So I'm trying to have it both ways, lol.

[DragoonKain3]

Before anime... heck, even before scanslations, I was into fanfiction. I don't know what the landscape is nowadays, but back then, I started with Gundam Wing. Despite me being obsessed with the RelenaXHeero relationship, pretty much 90% of anything was something like 1X2, 3X4, or 1X5. I tried some of them, but it honestly wasn't my thing.

So I moved on to Neon Genesis Evangelion, despite not having seen an episode of it (which to day I'm proud to say I haven't totally finished the TV series ). At that time, the good, long-written fanfics have shifted from Ranma (another series I haven't finished yet I think one highly influential Ukyo fanfic paved the way for my shipping craze later on) to NGE, so I was naturally drawn to well-written fanfics. While NGE fanfics has a lot of ShinjiXAsuka and ShinjuXRei, there was still a HUGE following for ShinjiXKaoru. Like I remember being always at odds with Rei fans (being a huge Asuka shipper), but I find liking much with Kaoru shippers.

Even when I was crazy about Harry Potter, while HarryXRon wasn't a big bleep in the radar, HarryXDraco caught on. This was especially true when the movies came out, and people were squeeing left and right about Felton and Radcliffe. Just like NGE before it, you would see me always debating with RHr shippers, but the het shippers by and large got along with the slashers. In fact, there was a lot of overlap because a lot of times you got people with a canon ship and a fanon ship, and that generally was a het for the former and a slash for the latter. So you've got no choice but keep an open mind because a lot of your fellow canon shipmates are fanon slashers as well.

(This is where OTP terminology comes from because OTP is supposed to be your MAIN ship, be it canon or fanon. OTP nowadays refers to the canon ship that has more or less sailed, which it isn't supposed to be :facepalm: )

So when I discovered manga scanslations, yuri was like an entirely new world for me. One particular group, Lililicious, I always dled their releases, because they consistently put out quality scans with good stories. In fact, it was only until Kannazuki no Miko aired that I forever stopped with yuri, because you know, childhood friend loses there.

(I just looked them up now, and HOLY SHIT they're still active. Outlasted the likes of mangaproject and shoujomagic by pretty large margins, but I'm getting off-topic here XD)

So yes, that accusation thrown out that I might be homophobic just because I don't agree with 'homoshipping' was greatly offensive to me. I've hung around homosexuals all my life (one is even blood-related to me), even for the entire time I was in the internet. I've met and interacted with slashers and fujoshis, read content from both gay and lesbian stories for THE PAST 15 YEARS. If that isn't being open minded, I don't know what is.

So yes, excuse me for the long rant, but I just had to get this off my chest.


Now this is a generalization, but I feel more close to yaoi shippers than yuri shippers. Sure I've had more experience with yaoi shippers, so I might be biased in that regard.

Still, I find yaoi shippers are more often than not the ones looking for subtext that support their ship and 'twist' it to their own ends (in fact, the term 'fujoshi' is exactly a reference to this), while yuri shippers want something more concrete. Considering childhood shipping is a lot of times subtle and/or the story is a lot of times that they love each other but hasn't realized it yet, I just find much more in common with fujoshis in the way I ship.

Case in point, fujoshis I know IRL are just happy with what little they get in this cour's Owari no Seraph. The few yuri shippers I know IRL got quite upset with Euphonium, DESPITE having like ten times more substance than fujoshis have with their lead title of the season.

(Just a disclaimer that Kekkai Sensen and Arslan are also pretty popular with the fujoshi crowd, but I personally couldn't get into either so I can't make any comparisons. But from what little I know, it isn't much different there)