Code Geass R2 - Episode 25 Discussion / Poll [END]

[azul120]

Originally Posted by Tori

That's not how I took his death. I thought it was necessary because of all the chaos and confusion he caused. He practically directed all of the world's hatred onto himself. His death was a way to unite everyone and make peace. Isn't that why he ordered Suzaku to kill him in front of everyone? The only other option I could think of was if he faked his death but he still had to appear dead to everyone. Other than that, I don't see any other option.

Say what?

All that chaos and confusion was progress from the chokehold Britannia had on the world. Most of the destruction he caused was collateral damage due to being low on options. The Zero Requiem involved him actually being the worst tyrant in the world. In short, not just causing more damage than he himself caused during the rebellion (which was at least offset by progress), but also Charles and anyone else. He could have just as easily continued on as a good leader.

It's like people forget two important things: the nature of the empire Lelouch was fighting against forbade him from playing nice, and he had basically won the moment he beat Charles (leaving Schneizel out of the discussion for a moment).

Besides, and this isn't the first time I've brought them up in this thread, the likes of Cornelia still lived on, despite being murderers.

[Tori]

Originally Posted by azul120

Say what?

All that chaos and confusion was progress from the chokehold Britannia had on the world. Most of the destruction he caused was collateral damage due to being low on options. The Zero Requiem involved him actually being the worst tyrant in the world. In short, not just causing more damage than he himself caused during the rebellion (which was at least offset by progress), but also Charles and anyone else. He could have just as easily continued on as a good leader.

It's like people forget two important things: the nature of the empire Lelouch was fighting against forbade him from playing nice, and he had basically won the moment he beat Charles (leaving Schneizel out of the discussion for a moment).

Besides, and this isn't the first time I've brought them up in this thread, the likes of Cornelia still lived on, despite being murderers.

I never said that there wasn't already chaos and confusion that Brittania had caused. That's why I specifically said the "chaos and confusion he caused." In addition, I also never said that he had to play nice. I acknowledge the fact that he was very limited in his options with fighting against Brittania. What I was trying to point out was that people viewed him as a cruel tyrant. As a result, all of the hatred was towards him. Which is why his death was necessary. He can't simply "have just continued on as a good leader" when everyone else practically hated him.

[azul120]

Originally Posted by Tori

I never said that there wasn't already chaos and confusion that Brittania had caused. That's why I specifically said the "chaos and confusion he caused." In addition, I also never said that he had to play nice. I acknowledge the fact that he was very limited in his options with fighting against Brittania. What I was trying to point out was that people viewed him as a cruel tyrant. As a result, all of the hatred was towards him. Which is why his death was necessary. He can't simply "have just continued on as a good leader" when everyone else practically hated him.

You misunderstood. I meant that he didn't have to go with the tyrant act in the first place.

[Tori]

Originally Posted by azul120

You misunderstood. I meant that he didn't have to go with the tyrant act in the first place.

Ahh... In that case, I did misunderstand. :P

But how would he be able to unite everyone?

[azul120]

Originally Posted by Tori

Ahh... In that case, I did misunderstand. :P

But how would he be able to unite everyone?

He would have to actually work towards peace on a continuous basis.

Ask yourself this: have we ever been permanently free of world conflict? No.

[Xander]

To be completely fair, everyone who isn't Lelouch is essentially going to "work towards peace on a continuous basis" even in the canonical ending. Both from an in-universe and external perspective (including the staff's "Word of God"), the ending isn't about a permanent peace that will last forever. All that Lelouch did was change the status quo and move certain key pieces around.

As it has been discussed endless times, however, the main motivation behind Lelouch's decision was obviously subjective rather than objective. Arguably, the world may ostensibly have been better off if Lelouch stuck around or even if Charles and Schneizel managed to implement their own plans (peace through a collective consciousness or peace through fear), but I can appreciate the ending regardless of that. Even if it's not the best possible plan, I think it was thematically fitting and goes quite well with the character's broken mental and emotional state. Then again, this is also something we have previously debated to death.

[azul120]

Here's the other thing: the show presented it as a good thing, handwaving any more logical explanation like what I've been arguing. And that is part of the fail.

Someone gave me a negative rep on my post from last page where I said the ending was Death of the Author, commenting "YMMV, but not really." To that person, I ask, do you even know what that means?

[Revolutionist]

What exactly did Lelouch accomplish?

absolutely nothing.

Here's what happens post ZR:

unemployment soars throughout Britannia as people whose livelihood depended on the military industrial complex see their jobs disappear. No more constant conflict = no need for massive numbers of sutherlands, tanks, ships, soldiers. People start to riot, and then it is only a matter of time until someone with Machiavellian ideals uses that to his advantage and makes a play for power.
They could use true Revolution as a pretext, or simply be a smart noble who bid his time and hid his wealth from Lelouch.

[Sol Falling]

World peace/economic development is a pretty complicated thing. Aside from the issue of (indeed) having nothing to build, there is also the issue that there are (frankly) limited resources to sustain that development. However, while an industrial war machine certainly is one of the ways to keep an economy productive and flourishing, in the short term infrastructural development is just as efficient/profitable as an economic driver as well. In fact, infrastructure is the actual industrial driver relevant to most of the world economic growth going on today (or rather, economies having long approached the ceiling for infrastructural development is the reason for the decline in developed nations).

So actually, I think that the large scale destruction of infrastructure that Lelouch at least partly induced through his squabble with Schniezel (Pendragon and Tokyo being wiped off the face of the earth, for at least one thing) sets a perfect stage for maybe a couple decades (I guess) worth of worldwide reconstruction. There should be enough room for growth for peace to last (maybe) at least that long. Of course even then inevitably a point will be reached where the Code Geass world runs into the classic human problems of overcrowding, stagnated room for growth, and resource scarcity, and they might well devolve into war again (as might sooner or later confront us in our own reality). But I do think that Zero:Requiem secured a suitably pleasant future for, at least, the short-to-middle term.

[Lost Cause]

Or as is now going on in the real world, a less developed country sees that the on e mighty Britannia and equally formidable Order if the Black Knights has become weakened due to the new peace and tries to both take power and destroy its former master, i.e. terrorism.
Or an internal strife could start another conflict.

[wredsa]

Originally Posted by Revolutionist

What exactly did Lelouch accomplish?

absolutely nothing.

Here's what happens post ZR:

unemployment soars throughout Britannia as people whose livelihood depended on the military industrial complex see their jobs disappear. No more constant conflict = no need for massive numbers of sutherlands, tanks, ships, soldiers. People start to riot, and then it is only a matter of time until someone with Machiavellian ideals uses that to his advantage and makes a play for power.
They could use true Revolution as a pretext, or simply be a smart noble who bid his time and hid his wealth from Lelouch.

sounds like utopia, the miliatary industrial complex would be changed into civilian industrial complex. People who used to make tanks would make candies for kids.

[Laurcus]

Originally Posted by Revolutionist

What exactly did Lelouch accomplish?

absolutely nothing.

Here's what happens post ZR:

unemployment soars throughout Britannia as people whose livelihood depended on the military industrial complex see their jobs disappear. No more constant conflict = no need for massive numbers of sutherlands, tanks, ships, soldiers. People start to riot, and then it is only a matter of time until someone with Machiavellian ideals uses that to his advantage and makes a play for power.
They could use true Revolution as a pretext, or simply be a smart noble who bid his time and hid his wealth from Lelouch.

Errm, source please? You may think that's what will happen next logically, but the show portrays ZR as a good thing. So without empirical evidence, you can't contradict the show. For all we know Renya could jump out of the past riding a Super Saiyan and spinkick anyone to death that tries to mess with world peace, and then everyone lives happily ever after because magic.

Without hard facts about what happens after the show, one bit of speculation is just as likely as the next.

[azul120]

It just doesn't make sense. Which is a pretty valid criticism.

And again, a better end could have quite possibly been achieved if not for the betrayal leading him down that path.

Would've preferred an End of Evangelion-esque ending where Lelouch just lets Charles and Marianne carry out their Instrumentality plan. Would've made sense with the idea of him losing all hope after Nunnally was presumed dead and the Black Knights turned on him when basically falling for Schneizel.

[Mezame_12]

They kind of mde it seem like Lelouch was still alive depending on how you view C.C's monologue

[Kakurin]

Originally Posted by Mezame_12

They kind of mde it seem like Lelouch was still alive depending on how you view C.C's monologue

Sorry for digging up that old thread, but going by the hints provided in the anime I don't see how he can be alive. That monologue doesn't prove anything.

First, why would Lelouch look for a way to weasel himself out of this? Yes, he was selfish to an enormous degree when it came down to realizing his goals, but he was always upfront about taking responsibility for his actions. When the Black Knights confronted him, he did not try to explain, but accepted his death. When he set about to stop his father, he also did not care about his own fate. So why would he suddenly care at Zero Requiem?

Second, why would Suzaku not know about such a scheme? After Lelouch himself, Suzaku was the most important man for Zero Requiem. With that plan Suzaku and Lelouch returned to that theme of anything can be done when they work together. So why would Lelouch betray Suzaku again?

Third, how in the world should he have survived being pierced thoroughly without medical aid for quite some time? He couldn't have gotten the code. Not from C.C., otherwise there would be no reason for her to be still alive and weeping for him. And not from his father. He let the World of C erase Charles without taking the code. Furthermore, if he had gotten the code, he would have lost his geass ability - which he did not.

Considering all this, unless one does some creative imagining by oneself, there is no way for Lelouch to survive. To me personally this was always a non-issue and I have wondered since the episode was released why some people continue to insist that he is alive / inconclusive.

[GundamFan0083]

Originally Posted by SigUp

Sorry for digging up that old thread, but going by the hints provided in the anime I don't see how he can be alive. That monologue doesn't prove anything.

First, why would Lelouch look for a way to weasel himself out of this? Yes, he was selfish to an enormous degree when it came down to realizing his goals, but he was always upfront about taking responsibility for his actions. When the Black Knights confronted him, he did not try to explain, but accepted his death. When he set about to stop his father, he also did not care about his own fate. So why would he suddenly care at Zero Requiem?

Second, why would Suzaku not know about such a scheme? After Lelouch himself, Suzaku was the most important man for Zero Requiem. With that plan Suzaku and Lelouch returned to that theme of anything can be done when they work together. So why would Lelouch betray Suzaku again?

Third, how in the world should he have survived being pierced thoroughly without medical aid for quite some time? He couldn't have gotten the code. Not from C.C., otherwise there would be no reason for her to be still alive and weeping for him. And not from his father. He let the World of C erase Charles without taking the code. Furthermore, if he had gotten the code, he would have lost his geass ability - which he did not.

Considering all this, unless one does some creative imagining by oneself, there is no way for Lelouch to survive. To me personally this was always a non-issue and I have wondered since the episode was released why some people continue to insist that he is alive / inconclusive.

Please! No more.
We know he's dead as fried chicken, now please don't drag this dead, mutilated, worm eaten, horse out from the grave to pulverize the bones.
There have been YEARS of this discussion...let's all move on.

[npal]

Originally Posted by GundamFan0083

Please! No more.
We know he's dead as fried chicken, now please don't drag this dead, mutilated, worm eaten, horse out from the grave to pulverize the bones.
There have been YEARS of this discussion...let's all move on.

He's not dead.

/flies away

[azul120]

Originally Posted by SigUp

Sorry for digging up that old thread, but going by the hints provided in the anime I don't see how he can be alive. That monologue doesn't prove anything.

First, why would Lelouch look for a way to weasel himself out of this? Yes, he was selfish to an enormous degree when it came down to realizing his goals, but he was always upfront about taking responsibility for his actions. When the Black Knights confronted him, he did not try to explain, but accepted his death. When he set about to stop his father, he also did not care about his own fate. So why would he suddenly care at Zero Requiem?

Second, why would Suzaku not know about such a scheme? After Lelouch himself, Suzaku was the most important man for Zero Requiem. With that plan Suzaku and Lelouch returned to that theme of anything can be done when they work together. So why would Lelouch betray Suzaku again?

Third, how in the world should he have survived being pierced thoroughly without medical aid for quite some time? He couldn't have gotten the code. Not from C.C., otherwise there would be no reason for her to be still alive and weeping for him. And not from his father. He let the World of C erase Charles without taking the code. Furthermore, if he had gotten the code, he would have lost his geass ability - which he did not.

Considering all this, unless one does some creative imagining by oneself, there is no way for Lelouch to survive. To me personally this was always a non-issue and I have wondered since the episode was released why some people continue to insist that he is alive / inconclusive.

The thing is, he took on more responsibility than he deserved to. When the Black Knights betrayed him, it was based on somewhat faulty evidence and a deal with the devil. Lelouch had simply lost the will to live after purportedly losing Nunnally.

[Kusaja]

It's actually a collection of things. But the point is Lelouch didn't want to live, either way. If he survived, the only way that would work is if it was entirely accidental and not his own intention. If he intended to live on after faking his death, that would in fact make Lelouch a worse person. That's really all I want to say.

[GreyZone]

Wasn't Lelouch's plan to be christ 2.0 by "taking all sins and evil onto himself"?

That would certainly include C.C.'s "curse". I mean the way he was ready to sacrifice anything, wouldn't it be at least plausible that he volunteered to take C.C.'s code from her to free her? While it is true that he seemed to have lost his will to live, would he really ignore C.C.'s state?