Mari Okada discussion

[Archon_Wing]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

Still, in that case, why are we not talking about the Director, or the Production Committee? The writer is an employee of the Production Committee, and they are commissioned to produce the work by request (and that work is reviewed and approved). It's not like they're sitting there with a script already written waiting to be adapted and, even if they were, it's not as if it was the scriptwriter's choice to make it an anime (someone's paying for all this stuff). If you're going to blame the "Leader", why aren't we going straight to the top and to the "Bill Gates level", as it were? (It's like blaming the Software Designer and not all the tiers of management who signed off on it.)

It just seems odd to me in a fan culture that is usually ganging up on Animation Production Studios for things they rarely have control over (including, usually, the script that they didn't write or the editorial decisions they had no control over), in this one and almost-only case people have decided that this one female scriptwriter is to blame for the things they don't like instead, and somehow the only fault the others higher in the chain of command have is "not reigning her in" (as if she's some sort of out-of-control child on a tantrum that needs to be disciplined... this even though they're the ones paying her to write for them). I find this bizarre and perplexing.

You have a point about Directors, which is why we do actually have a lot of clamoring about them (Say Shinkai, Shinbo). Although I guess we don't have dedicated threads about them for whatever reason. But I'm sure you've heard a lot of things blamed on Shinbo about say, the Monogatari series, even though he isn't responsible for the material! And at the same time, many will point out his distinctive style and if you're watching an anime that has him as director, it's not unfair to expect something a bit wacky. I don't see the difference between this and the head script writer. As for the Production Committee, sponsors, and the higher ups, well I guess to many they are faceless entities. Though I'm sure someone has ranted about them.

Popularity just comes with a price. Okada, in particular has won certain awards and thus has created some kind of cult or mythology around her. One may debate the significance of these things, but clearly, she's being recognized for something. Besides, we don't want to downplay the praise either even if we realize she's not the sole factor. And thus the discussion ensues.

It's not fair, but that's just how people's minds work. It's just the problems that come with stamping your name on a project. Why aren't people picking on the 30 other names on the credits? Well, recognition flies to the notable names.

If there's a problem, I feel that there isn't enough recognition for other members of staff. Then again, being unappreciated seems to be a common theme for those that work in the industry.

Am I really wrong for noting that certain anime I like has certain names popping up? I find this no different from enjoying a certain Voice Actor's work, and finding other anime that they did work in. Kyoani's been a really popular name because they have delivered a certain desirable product, even though it's uncertain that they are the ones lighting it up or the people that made the source material, or those that funded them. It still doesn't change the perception that one can expect a certain kind of anime that suits them due to brand name.

[Reckoner]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

It just seems odd to me in a fan culture that is usually ganging up on Animation Production Studios for things they rarely have control over (including, usually, the script that they didn't write or the editorial decisions they had no control over), in this one and almost-only case people have decided that this one female scriptwriter is to blame for the things they don't like instead, and somehow the only fault the others higher in the chain of command have is "not reigning her in" (as if she's some sort of out-of-control child on a tantrum that needs to be disciplined... this even though they're the ones paying her to write for them). I find this bizarre and perplexing.

What I find even more odd is the lengths you're going to try and absolve them of criticism. If you are part of a product, you're opening the windows to it. It's completely fair game.

Whether such criticism is correct is a different matter, but if you believe Mari Okada did not have an adverse effect on a show like Lupin III, then tell me why.

I think when you have articles coming out of the industry about how Nagai had to restrain Okada's script for Ano Hana and how she subsequently became depressed and decided to work with Kawamori because Kawamori let her unleash her creative spirit (AKA mass fetishes) in works like Aquarion or AKB it just supports a growing narrative of a writer who basically is an out-of-control child that needs to be reigned in.

Okada has fairly earned her criticisms as a writer, since it is a very easy to see this attribute in a production. Directing is as well, and I spare no love for Kawamori either because I think he was a bad influence on her writing and has totally gone off the deep end since Macross Frontier with his idol obsession.

Yeah the production committee hired these people in the first place. They deserve blame too. Doesn't change the fact that the person they hired did a craptastic job.

[Haak]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

I think when you have articles coming out of the industry about how Nagai had to restrain Okada's script for Ano Hana and how she subsequently became depressed and decided to work with Kawamori because Kawamori let her unleash her creative spirit (AKA mass fetishes) in works like Aquarion or AKB it just supports a growing narrative of a writer who basically is an out-of-control child that needs to be reigned in.

What articles? Wasn't that simply an alleged rumor?

On the other hand i think most people are exaggerating the interview in which she said Ano Hana originally intended to have slapstick erotic elements. It's clear from the actual interview that they worked together fine and Okada wasn't "reigned in" the way most people think she was.

[Westlo]

Yeah I'll like to see these articles lol...

[totoum]

Originally Posted by Westlo

Yeah I'll like to see these articles lol...

ANN did their best sankaku complex impression and quoted an interview completely out of context and we got this

So earlier in the thread I posted the original japanese interview and someone kindly offered a translation and some precisions

To me the "emotions were shaken" doesn't mean that she was depressed but just relieved after not being sure what to do.

edit: oh wait,haak beat me to it! lol

As a reminder the okada social group still exist and there's a four page okada interview waiting for a translation
I tried to get a IRL friend to translate it but he doesn't give a damn about anime

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by totoum

ANN did their best sankaku complex impression and quoted an interview completely out of context and we got this

So earlier in the thread I posted the original japanese interview and someone kindly offered a translation and some precisions

To me the "emotions were shaken" doesn't mean that she was depressed but just relieved after not being sure what to do.

"Emotions were shaken" = "Relieved"?

Totoum, "emotions were shaken" means almost the very opposite of "relieved"!

The fact is that Okada was told that her script for AnoHana needed a major rewrite, and that shook her up. It does suggest substantial editing to her work. "Reigning in" strikes me as a reasonable way to refer to substantial editing.


And there are common threads in most Okada-wrote anime originals. The most obvious of these being Okada's love of cross-dressing male characters, as Reckoner earlier brought up.

Okada gets more attention than most anime writers because...

1) She won a prestigious award that anime writers typically don't win.

2) Her full resume of work is quite extensive, and includes some very notable anime originals.

3) She has a more distinctive style than most anime writers do.


These strike me as perfectly legitimate reasons for Okada getting more attention (both good and bad) than what most other anime writers do. And with more attention comes more blame/credit.

Not all anime writers are equally (in)famous/influential just like not all anime directors are equally (in)famous/influential. A prolific, accomplished veteran like Okada is obviously going to carry more clout than a lot of other anime writers. Sure, even Okada isn't allowed to write whatever she wants, but she probably has fewer constraints placed on her than a lot of other anime writers are.

[totoum]

I didn't expressed myself properly sorry

I meant to say I have no idea where ANN got the idea that her emotions were shaken when the other rough translation we got in the thread makes it sound like the opposite happened.

When she showed them the project proposal, she didn't know what she should focus on yet and the proposal included slapstick erotic elements. At the first meeting, the two of them suggested she focus on friendship, and told cliche was fine. Then she felt certain she cound handle the script.

So coming into the meeting she wasn't sure herself of what to do and at the end of the meeting "she felt certain she cound handle the script" so that doesn't seem like a very traumatizing experience.

The ANN article makes it sound like she had a script ready and was told to take slapstick erotic elements out of it.
But reading the other rough translation to me it sounds more like after being chosen to write an original anime she called Nagai after coming up with various ideas and they had a brainstorming session where they looked over them and ero slapstick humor was one of them.So there was no major rewrite needed because nothing was really written yet.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

I know that the following post I quoted is an old one, but as a Gundam fan, I have to respond to this:

Originally Posted by totoum

Maybe if they give her a gundam show then i'd say they must have run out of other writers.

By giving you a big Darth Vader’s “NNNNNOOOOOOOOoooooooo..................!!!!”

*imagining Aquarion EVOL (only this time with Gundams instead)*

Ok folks. That’s all from me. Please continue this interesting discussion.

[totoum]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

I know that the following post I quoted is an old one, but as a Gundam fan, I have to respond to this:

By giving you a big Darth Vader’s “NNNNNOOOOOOOOoooooooo..................!!!!”

Just to be clear,what I meant when I said that was that she was the last person I'd consider for the job

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by totoum

Just to be clear,what I meant when I said that was that she was the last person I'd consider for the job

Don't worry, totoum. I already get your point. I read the entirety of your post after all.

It's just... the thought of Okada doing a Gundam series is really.... well, you know how it feels.

Ok, on with your discussion.

[Guardian Enzo]

If a string of anime have the same set of problems and the only common element is the writer, then it's quite natural to suspect that the writer is an important reason as to why those problems exist. It's simply looking for the least unlikely reason those problems exist.

Okada gets a lot of criticism, in part, because she's getting a huge amount of work at the moment. More projects = more targets for criticism. But that's not the extent of the problem, and many people feel the quality of her work has deteriorated substantially in the last year and a half. That some choose to interpret any criticism of her as some kind of covert sexism seems rather silly to me - that's just something they're bringing to the table. It's demeaning both to her (to suggest that any discussion of her is automatically focused on her gender, not her abilities as a writer) and on those making the criticism.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

What I find even more odd is the lengths you're going to try and absolve them of criticism. If you are part of a product, you're opening the windows to it. It's completely fair game.

Whether such criticism is correct is a different matter, but if you believe Mari Okada did not have an adverse effect on a show like Lupin III, then tell me why.

I think when you have articles coming out of the industry about how Nagai had to restrain Okada's script for Ano Hana and how she subsequently became depressed and decided to work with Kawamori because Kawamori let her unleash her creative spirit (AKA mass fetishes) in works like Aquarion or AKB it just supports a growing narrative of a writer who basically is an out-of-control child that needs to be reigned in.

I just wish that you (and others) would have a little bit more empathy for the creators who bring us this entertainment, and not just this particular writer but all those involved (and yes, that's irrespective of gender). If I'm in their shoes and stumble upon this thread, I think I'd see a bunch of self-righteous foreign pirates criticising my writing choices as if they know me, acting as if they understand my culture and my work conditions, and this even though I have to do what I'm told in the end, and was hired precisely because of what my patrons knew I've written before. So, why all the vitriol? Is this about trying to understand more about what we do and do not like in our entertainment, or is it more about making us feel good about our opinions and finding someone to blame for our discontent? Of course, any artist expects their work to be criticized the moment they put it on display (otherwise, they'd just keep it to themselves). But I think we, as "critics", can do better. At the very least, I think we can focus on the product and our reasoned criticism of it, rather than finding various ways to slam a person's character and trying to construct elaborate gossipy narratives more fit for the tabloids than anything else. We can criticize a person's work without attacking the person; to me, such attacks are never "fair game".

To summarize, I think discussion is good, and criticism is fine (if people keep in mind that there's a lot they don't know about what goes on behind the scenes), but I would like to see a touch more class and civility in the conversation. That's really my only concern.

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

If a string of anime have the same set of problems and the only common element is the writer, then it's quite natural to suspect that the writer is an important reason as to why those problems exist. It's simply looking for the least unlikely reason those problems exist.

if the problem is obvious i would personally blame the director for reining her in.

The director is the one with the vision with how the anime looks, how the story flows, how the character interacts. The writers puts the director vision on paper. The writer might have their own idea but ultimately it is all up to the director.

[Guardian Enzo]

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

if the problem is obvious i would personally blame the director for reining her in.

The director is the one with the vision with how the anime looks, how the story flows, how the character interacts. The writers puts the director vision on paper. The writer might have their own idea but ultimately it is all up to the director.

What if, theoretically, six anime have the same set of problems - and those six anime have six different directors, but the same writer? Would you argue that it's more likely the problem is the six directors?

[Haak]

I'd argue that it could be sample bias since you're only gathering up the stories with the same writer. XP

But I'm unlikely to agree that the six anime have the same set of problems in the first place so...

[Guardian Enzo]

That was a hypothetical!

[Reckoner]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

I just wish that you (and others) would have a little bit more empathy for the creators who bring us this entertainment, and not just this particular writer but all those involved (and yes, that's irrespective of gender). If I'm in their shoes and stumble upon this thread, I think I'd see a bunch of self-righteous foreign pirates criticising my writing choices as if they know me, acting as if they understand my culture and my work conditions, and this even though I have to do what I'm told in the end, and was hired precisely because of what my patrons knew I've written before. So, why all the vitriol? Is this about trying to understand more about what we do and do not like in our entertainment, or is it more about making us feel good about our opinions and finding someone to blame for our discontent? Of course, any artist expects their work to be criticized the moment they put it on display (otherwise, they'd just keep it to themselves). But I think we, as "critics", can do better. At the very least, I think we can focus on the product and our reasoned criticism of it, rather than finding various ways to slam a person's character and trying to construct elaborate gossipy narratives more fit for the tabloids than anything else. We can criticize a person's work without attacking the person; to me, such attacks are never "fair game".

To summarize, I think discussion is good, and criticism is fine (if people keep in mind that there's a lot they don't know about what goes on behind the scenes), but I would like to see a touch more class and civility in the conversation. That's really my only concern.

I think this is just being a touch too sensitive. You aren't Okada. You aren't the director. You aren't the person or type of person I'm slamming in this industry.

Am I really breaking the lines of civility in a conversation because I dare call a writer's work childish? Because it's possible, based on rumors, that her writing lacks restraint? I shouldn't of co opted what you said about Okada being an out of control child because that was never my own language in the first place. To me her writing is childish, I don't know what she really is like in real life. I am not making this personal, I am just saying I don't think she's the right person for the job. Is that so wrong?

You seem to love bring up that we are pirates, but I have said this to you before, I do purchase anime. Is it wrong for me to hope to find a really good product that I'd want to give my money towards? Keeping in mind the industry right now loves to push this certain writer into a HUGE amount of shows recently, which to me is only a bad thing for the quality of the eventual product.

[totoum]

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

if the problem is obvious i would personally blame the director for reining her in.

The director is the one with the vision with how the anime looks, how the story flows, how the character interacts. The writers puts the director vision on paper. The writer might have their own idea but ultimately it is all up to the director.

Just going to take an extreme exemple at first to make a point but the "directors" are not always the ones with "visions",in the classic hollywood eras it was producers or in the US tv industry right now it's scriptwriters.

When it comes to animes I don't think there's a standard,it depends on the project and on the studio culture as well.

It just seems to me there's a lot of teamwork involved and what you're seeing is rarely the vision of one person but rather the vision of a group of people who all had their say

Originally Posted by Reckoner

Am I really breaking the lines of civility in a conversation because I dare call a writer's work childish? Because it's possible, based on rumors, that her writing lacks restraint?

Hell here's what the woman herself had to say on the Black Butler musical she wrote

and even though my scenario was full of stupid things she managed to make it feel so high-quality and wonderful. I'm really grateful to her for her direction (LOL).

And on Black Butler II and the chracters she created for it

But still the director, sensei and all the staff kindly told me "Do it your way!", so I made Alois and Claude exactly the way I thought. However, if this was a completely original work I could've gone wherever I wanted with the story, but it's based on a manga, so it's always a succession of trial and error to decide how much I can overdo it.

--Indeed, in the manga there is a line that absolutely cannot be crossed.
Okada - Exactly. In season 1 I had trouble when I had to portray Sebastian and Ciel's relationship as "a butler and his young master". In a normal anime he would be all "I will protect you, young master!", because it would be better to keep the story going, but in this case there's a distance between them that won't change no matter what, yet this is also their charm. Hence I struggled to show the coolness of them not trusting each other and the tension between them. But this time, with Claude and Alois, I wanted to create characters who lacked that restraint, and suddenly all the things I had been suppressing so far overflowed (LOL).

When she says "it's always a succession of trial and error to decide how much I can overdo it." I really want to ask "So wait,you plan on overdoing it,it's just a question of how much?"

[Haak]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

I think this is just being a touch too sensitive. You aren't Okada. You aren't the director. You aren't the person or type of person I'm slamming in this industry.

Am I really breaking the lines of civility in a conversation because I dare call a writer's work childish? Because it's possible, based on rumors, that her writing lacks restraint? I shouldn't of co opted what you said about Okada being an out of control child because that was never my own language in the first place. To me her writing is childish, I don't know what she really is like in real life. I am not making this personal, I am just saying I don't think she's the right person for the job. Is that so wrong?

You seem to love bring up that we are pirates, but I have said this to you before, I do purchase anime. Is it wrong for me to hope to find a really good product that I'd want to give my money towards? Keeping in mind the industry right now loves to push this certain writer into a HUGE amount of shows recently, which to me is only a bad thing for the quality of the eventual product.

You weren't just criticizing her writing though. You were clearly criticising her personality:

Originally Posted by Reckoner

I think when you have articles coming out of the industry about how Nagai had to restrain Okada's script for Ano Hana and how she subsequently became depressed and decided to work with Kawamori because Kawamori let her unleash her creative spirit (AKA mass fetishes) in works like Aquarion or AKB it just supports a growing narrative of a writer who basically is an out-of-control child that needs to be reigned in..

If it wasn't your own language then you shouldn't have agreed to it.

[Reckoner]

Let me requote myself for you Haak.

Originally Posted by Reckoner

I shouldn't of co opted what you said about Okada being an out of control child because that was never my own language in the first place. To me her writing is childish, I don't know what she really is like in real life. I am not making this personal, I am just saying I don't think she's the right person for the job. Is that so wrong?

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

It just seems odd to me in a fan culture that is usually ganging up on Animation Production Studios for things they rarely have control over (including, usually, the script that they didn't write or the editorial decisions they had no control over), in this one and almost-only case people have decided that this one female scriptwriter is to blame for the things they don't like instead, and somehow the only fault the others higher in the chain of command have is "not reigning her in" (as if she's some sort of out-of-control child on a tantrum that needs to be disciplined... this even though they're the ones paying her to write for them). I find this bizarre and perplexing.

I made a mistake in using Relentless's own words last night. I didn't come up with that phrase. This is misleading form the point I was trying to make, so I hope we can move on. No this shouldn't be personal and that's not my intention.


EDIT:

Originally Posted by totoum

Hell here's what the woman herself had to say on the Black Butler musical she wrote



And on Black Butler II and the chracters she created for it



When she says "it's always a succession of trial and error to decide how much I can overdo it." I really want to ask "So wait,you plan on overdoing it,it's just a question of how much?"

Lol. Well this is the distinct impression I've built of her and her writing over recent years so yeah, this and other things like it are the reason why (Besides of course the actual product she's been giving us).