Birth, Aging and Death In Soul Society

[Zu Ra]

Originally Posted by Thewanderer

So if there's no soul creation in the form of births, there'd be a decreasing stream of individuals in SS and the human world, just being recycled, or going to heaven/hell somehow, not to mention getting Hollowfied + destroyed by Quincys.

Logically, wouldn't there be something that creates souls somehow to keep the population steady? You know, like giving birth to them...

I strongly agree with this theory to maintain balance between Hueco Muendo Siereitei and Sekai .

Souls may be born due to copulation/fornication .One more thing which strongly favours this theory is Byakuya mentioning he went against Kuchiki family's wishes and adopted Rukia who was from Rukognai

So if we do agree souls arent born in Seiretei . When all souls do come from Sekai would it really matter to Kuchiki Family, which district Rukia came from, while adoption ?

I too belive Souls are indeed born in Seireitei

[Thewanderer]

Originally Posted by The Small One

Well, I don't think so. If there really was such a "something", which creates new souls, the Quincys wouldn't have been much of a problem and there wouldn't have been much reason to wipe them out. However it was implied, that the Quincys' destroying of (hollow) souls was something which never happened before.

I'm pretty sure that souls are valuable whether they're replacable or not. I mean Quincys erase the souls' very EXISTANCE.

Besides, you didn't factor in heaven or hell, which exist in the Bleach continuity. There's gotta be more souls that go there than destroyed as a hollow by the Quincy.

[kagato3]

It seems that people are also missing hollows in the mix. If there is not a device to introduce new souls into ss then they are fighting a loseing battle and sooner or later there will just be just a single monster hollow left as it has eaten every soul till only it remains.

There are also members of the other (ex)noble family that we have gotten a good look at, the Shiba's, all have had very strong family resemblences to each other. while we have heard that faimlies in the slums are formed by adopting members in I can not recall ever seeing that that is how it was done for the nobles, please correct me if i am wrong with the chapter or ep so i can review it.

My guess on how true birth works in ss is that both parents must have very strong souls and a child takes a part of each of thier souls to be created. This would keep the number of true births very low, but high enuff to reprace the souls lost to hollows. This would also tend to limit it to members of a noble house or strong souled outsider, who aren't so much as adopted in to the family as married in.

[chzon]

So...nobles just appear in SS? Makes very little sense. Unless they are manifestations of EXTREMELY pure souls.

[Pippin4242]

My current evidence and theories:

-If people die at exactly the same time and place (the example given is ritual family suicide) then they are assigned the same number upon arrival in Soul Society and therefore sent to the same place.
-The Shiba family all appear to be closely related
-Yuuichi's 'brother' explained the adoption solely with reference to Rukongai souls
-Renji has aged faster than Rukia
-Hitsugaya has aged faster than Hinamori
-Ukitake developed his illness (TB?) in childhood
-The house of Kuchiki is bound by tradition and disapproves furiously of Rukongai konpaku joining the clan
-Ichigo has a similar physical appearance and identical temprement to Kaien. Even Byakuya pointed it out.
-The number of living people is not static- in RL that is.

The above has lead me to speculate the following.

-It is possible to give birth within Soul Society, but possibly only those with high reiatsu (i.e. Shinigami and the untrained Shibas) can do so
-Aging occurs according to karma but does not go backwards
-Souls can be created through birth in Soul Society OR through birth in the real world. New souls must be created to allow for population increase and those recyclable souls otherwise 'lost'.
-Reincarnation/incarnation works both ways- SS to human world, human world to SS ad infinitum
-Soul Society souls which die incarnate into the human world as babies only.

...I think. :P

*~Pips~*

[Pippin4242]

Ah, I won't claim to have been paying close attention to the Quincy and Hollows, so if you say no souls are lost I'll have to believe you. To be honest I had the filler arc in mind, thinking of Kariya and his soul-drinking ways, but of course I don't particularly regard the filler as canon. However, with the rate of population increase increasing, there aren't enough souls to go around. Although there are still ten dead people for every one living, if these are being constantly switched between worlds- and if in one world the rate of aging is greatly reduced, if at all present for those with low to no reiatsu- then I believe there must be a shortfall at some point, or that there is potential for one at any point. Therefore in one world at least new souls must be created, and I believe the implications from the Kuchiki 'xenophobia' and the Shiba resemblance would be that they can be created in Soul Society.

And I stated only that which I believed to be extremely clear, because I was trying just to go on the evidence given, and not to overspeculate. I guess you could call that stating the obvious.

*~Pips~*

[Pippin4242]

Originally Posted by Pippin4242

Ah, I won't claim to have been paying close attention to the Quincy and Hollows, so if you say no souls are lost I'll have to believe you. To be honest I had the filler arc in mind, thinking of Kariya and his soul-drinking ways, but of course I don't particularly regard the filler as canon. However, with the rate of population increase increasing, there aren't enough souls to go around. Although there are still ten dead people for every one living, if these are being constantly switched between worlds- and if in one world the rate of aging is greatly reduced, if at all present for those with low to no reiatsu- then I believe there must be a shortfall at some point, or that there is potential for one at any point. Therefore in one world at least new souls must be created, and I believe the implications from the Kuchiki 'xenophobia' and the Shiba resemblance would be that they can be created in Soul Society.

And I stated only that which I believed to be extremely clear, because I was trying just to go on the evidence given, and not to overspeculate. I guess you could call that stating the obvious.

*~Pips~*

EDIT: Wait, that's rubbish. How could the Quincy have been disturbing the balance between the worlds if they didn't truly destroy souls? I stand by my original statement.

[kagato3]

Originally Posted by Pippin4242

My current evidence and theories:

-If people die at exactly the same time and place (the example given is ritual family suicide) then they are assigned the same number upon arrival in Soul Society and therefore sent to the same place.

sounds likely.

-The Shiba family all appear to be closely related

And Oomeda's family seems to be even more so.

-Yuuichi's 'brother' explained the adoption solely with reference to Rukongai souls

Yes we still know next to nothing as to how the nobles do things

-Renji has aged faster than Rukia

I don't think he has. Rukia is just short

-Hitsugaya has aged faster than Hinamori

Maybe, it might just be that we first see her after she has hit her growth spurts and before he has hit his.

-Ukitake developed his illness (TB?) in childhood
-The house of Kuchiki is bound by tradition and disapproves furiously of Rukongai konpaku joining the clan
-Ichigo has a similar physical appearance and identical temprement to Kaien. Even Byakuya pointed it out.
-The number of living people is not static- in RL that is.

The above has lead me to speculate the following.

-It is possible to give birth within Soul Society, but possibly only those with high reiatsu (i.e. Shinigami and the untrained Shibas) can do so
-Aging occurs according to karma but does not go backwards
-Souls can be created through birth in Soul Society OR through birth in the real world. New souls must be created to allow for population increase and those recyclable souls otherwise 'lost'.
-Reincarnation/incarnation works both ways- SS to human world, human world to SS ad infinitum
-Soul Society souls which die incarnate into the human world as babies only.

...I think. :P

*~Pips~*

Also remember that hollows eat souls. While killing a hollow with a Zanpaktou acts like a Soul Burrial and the hollow's soul is reborn in ss. there was nothings said about the souls it had eaten and given that we were told about this around the time Ichgo found out his mother was killed by a hollow it does not bode well. likely what happens is that the ex hollow soul keeps the power it has gained. Which could mean that most of the captians were hollows at one point of their incarnations and also why the Quincies were a threat. Shinigami kills a strong hollow that has eaten a few souls, some where in ss a new soul shows up that can become a Shinigami. A Quincy kills the same hollow, now that soul is lost and there is one (or more, if powerful souls can have children in SS) less Shinigami to help control hollows, so Quincies kill more hollows, and so on.

[Pippin4242]

Yes, I remember now that when Isshin spoke at Masaki's shrine Ichigo reckoned nobody was listening. That was pretty sad.

I'm willing to accept the growth spurt theory with Hitsugaya and Hinamori, but with Rukia and Renji I wasn't so much going on height as facial features. If I had to guess an age for Renji I'd say he looked like he was in his mid-twenties, but Rukia seems at least ten years younger. Perhaps that's just me though. They looked an awful lot closer in age as children. Renji's face is much longer, and his eyes take up a lot less room than they used to. He's 'filled out'- he looks solid and adult. I know Rukia's supposed to be short, but she looks very childlike to me, with her frighteningly slender forearms and, as Kon noted, extremely flat chest.

I'm sure there are no plotholes in the Bleach manga. There are symbols and hints everywhere! ^^

*~Pips~*

[Thewanderer]

Originally Posted by Pippin4242

I'm willing to accept the growth spurt theory with Hitsugaya and Hinamori, but with Rukia and Renji I wasn't so much going on height as facial features. If I had to guess an age for Renji I'd say he looked like he was in his mid-twenties, but Rukia seems at least ten years younger. Perhaps that's just me though. They looked an awful lot closer in age as children. Renji's face is much longer, and his eyes take up a lot less room than they used to. He's 'filled out'- he looks solid and adult. I know Rukia's supposed to be short, but she looks very childlike to me, with her frighteningly slender forearms and, as Kon noted, extremely flat chest.

Well about Renji being more "filled out" than Rukia... well he's a guy and all. It'd come natural. And even if Rukia was in her mid-twenties, her chest would still be more than likely fully grown.

Just a couple random observations

[kagato3]

Originally Posted by Pippin4242

Yes, I remember now that when Isshin spoke at Masaki's shrine Ichigo reckoned nobody was listening. That was pretty sad.

I'm willing to accept the growth spurt theory with Hitsugaya and Hinamori, but with Rukia and Renji I wasn't so much going on height as facial features. If I had to guess an age for Renji I'd say he looked like he was in his mid-twenties, but Rukia seems at least ten years younger. Perhaps that's just me though. They looked an awful lot closer in age as children. Renji's face is much longer, and his eyes take up a lot less room than they used to. He's 'filled out'- he looks solid and adult. I know Rukia's supposed to be short, but she looks very childlike to me, with her frighteningly slender forearms and, as Kon noted, extremely flat chest.

I'm sure there are no plotholes in the Bleach manga. There are symbols and hints everywhere! ^^

*~Pips~*

I understand what your saying, but 2 things that may change your mind. First Rukia's sister wasn't much diffrent and she was clearly an adult, the waifish look seems to run in their family. As for Renji I don't think he looks any older then Ichigo, who is at most 16 by now. Part of his face looking longer may be do to his hair style. Part of his hair is shaved off for his Tattoos, some pictures have the points going all the way to the top of his head.

[Pippin4242]

Sorry, I did read your post at first, but when I re-read mine I got confused. ^^'

Kagato, that's an extremely good point about Hisana. Then again, wasn't she quite ill? Also, facially, I'd still have to say adult Hisana looks older than Rukia to me.
Oh, and I wasn't expecting Rukia to ever look as solid as Renji. :P Just a little bit less breakable, perhaps. I don't know, she just still looks to me like she has some growing to do- or if not growing, aging at least- before she looks like an adult.

*~Pips~*

[kagato3]

Originally Posted by The Small One

Unlikely. I wrote it already above (did you read my posts), that I think those souls are freed.
If they were lost, the Shinigami would have already taken actions. And if those souls merge to one soul forever, the total number of souls would constantly get smaller, which would also be a disturbance to the balance.

Um, have you been reading my posts? I have been useing this as part of my agument for why there is brith in ss. Now I am going off memory here, so I may be a bit off base as i haven't located my copy of the first few vol, but around the grand fisher arc Ichigo was told that given a chance hollows will consume the souls of those that they kill. It's implied if not out right stated that that soul is destroyed. Now this doesn't throw things out of balance because if a Shinigami kills the hollow you now have a soul that is able to bear children so the souls aren't lost. Given that real world population increases it is likely there are other ways then hollows eating other souls in which souls can grow stronger so the number of "reproductive souls" increses as well.

Kagato, that's an extremely good point about Hisana. Then again, wasn't she quite ill? Also, facially, I'd still have to say adult Hisana looks older than Rukia to me.

I think her illness came on fairly quickly and wasn't one where she wasted away. She look pretty much the same in her shrine picture and she looked heathly in that one. Age wise I would say that there was about a 10 year gap in their ages which would place her in about her early 20's when she died. My guess is that in about 50 more years, as she seems to be ageing at a rate of 10 years to 1, she will have the same look.

[Thewanderer]

I just realised something that might prove thewhole "balance" thing wrong. The Bound. They consume souls. Okay, they're not natural, but SS didn't have a problem with them till recently.

[NoSanninWa]

Actually, I seem to remember that back in episode 68, the first time that the Bound were introduced we were told that normally instead of eating living human souls their hunger merely takes the place of a soul burial.

[[DOT].L]

Don't souls that are "eaten" by Hollows turn into Hollows (ie. Inoue's brother)?

[NoSanninWa]

Yup. Souls eaten by Hollows aren't destroyed. Just changed. So far the only thing we know of that destroys souls, are Quincies

[Flashdance]

Originally Posted by NoSanninWa

Yup. Souls eaten by Hollows aren't destroyed. Just changed. So far the only thing we know of that destroys souls, are Quincies

Arent those souls just going to Hueco Mundo. Because in the explanation there was some kind of hourglass and outside of the human world and soul souciety is, as far as i know, Hueco Mundo, isnt it?

[NoSanninWa]

Except that we were never told what happens to consumed souls. It was never clarified if they are destroyed, or reside in the belly of the hollow until freed by that hollows defeat. Or perhaps sent to Hueco Mundo. It's unknown. Just one of the very many unknowns in Kubo-sensei's world. I really wish he bothered to answer some of these questions in a clear and concise manner.

[fizzmaister]

one problem with the theories that power from consumed souls (hollow or bounto) lose their reatsu (or part of it) and the consumer gains permanently it is that it violates the laws of thermodynamics, specifically entropy.

I think that they power up somewhat like how Ichigo did, when he took Rukia's power. The souls lose their reatsu but it slowly refills (back from the consumer, like a rubber band) The consuming souls ability to hold the energy would be based on the percent increase in spirit energy (compared to the person's baseline) (a spiritually weak person would have a harder time holding on to extra energy that a naturally stronger person.)