2011-09-30, 22:13 | Link #24741 | |
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EDIT: Actually why didn't I think of that? The victim leaves behind some kind of clue as to their killer, pointing at Shannon as the killer, but Shannon couldn't possibly have committed the murder for whatever alibi reason. Kanon, however, could have, but it's dismissed because the victim didn't incriminate Kanon.
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2011-09-30, 22:27 | Link #24742 |
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How about this:
Kanon and Jessica are clearly seen entering an empty room. They close and lock the door. Jessica screams. People gather around. It takes a little while, but they break in. They pour in. Jessica is lying dead on the floor; Kanon is nowhere to be seen. During that time, Hideyoshi stayed outside and testifies that nobody left the room. At that point, only Battler, George, Eva, Rosa, Maria, Shannon, and dead Jessica are in the room.
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2011-09-30, 22:59 | Link #24743 |
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The only way a scenario can point towards Shkanon is if said scenario contained evidence pointing towards the possibility of disguise. Using Usagi's scenario, let's look inside the room and instead of it being completely empty, we see make- up. Shannon comes in, Kanon comes out, and there's make- up in the room, that's enough for me to take Shkanon into consideration. Moreso, if Jessica and George were to have made an observation such as Kanon acting effeminate sometimes or Shannon's voice become low at random points.
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2011-10-01, 08:07 | Link #24744 | |||
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Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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Ikuko: ".......Because of that one day, being torn apart between his self and another self he couldn't accept, while on a fit he........." "Fortunately his life was saved but as a consequence he'll be forever bound to that wellchair......." Ange: ".....How terrible..." And so I understood why my brother was on that wellchair. Ikuko stopped before saying "attempted suicide" but it's pretty straightforward anyway. This is also where you learn that the wellchair is a consequence of the attempted suicide and not a disability he acquired before meeting Ikuko.
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2011-10-01, 09:09 | Link #24745 |
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Yeah, thats pretty clear. Touya tried to kill himself after remembering the truth then? What is the "Self he couldn't accept" though? Battler? Thats kinda of an odd way to put it, maybe killing yourself because of the people that where attached to Battler the person, but just killing yourself just because the other self was Battler seems kinda odd.
...Unless....Battler culprit... |
2011-10-01, 09:37 | Link #24746 |
Zero of the roulette
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Finland
Age: 30
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About Gohda and Kumasawa's murder in EP4, I remember that in EP1 it was said that the keys in the servant's room, including the key to the shed didn't have name tags. If the premise didn't change for EP4, it might hint that the key that Battler foudn from Gohda's pocket was indeed fake.
Don't you think there's some kind of allusion to the scene with Yasu meeting Kinzo after finding the gold at the end of EP3? Eva told Ange that he'd get the cursed gold. Didn't Eva die soon after? And then Ange was about to jump from the building... Could that somehow also present how Yasu felt when he got to know it all too? |
2011-10-01, 09:49 | Link #24747 | ||
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Location: Yesterday!
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It's like asking if Maria really wears Witch Maria's dress when she appears as such. I'd worry a lot more about the fact that even Jessica/Natsuhi/Krauss who lives there apparently don't have spare clothes for the second day if we're going to talk about clothes. Quote:
Still I don't think you can achieve a single culprit theory in Umineko without taking a wild guess that doesn't lead to Shkanontrice. So as far as I'm concerned the serie pretty much succeeded already. Shkanontrice is blatantly obvious too. Edit: Something like as long as you're aware these are stories, which the author theory claims very directly, there's no reason why you couldn't use literacy rules as detective techniques, which leads directly to Shkanontrice. Or can you give a non Shkanontrice explanation as to why, let's say, the opening parts of arc 2 with Kanon/Shannon/Beatrice and the brooch was put in the story without a Shkanontrice solution? Last edited by UsagiTenpura; 2011-10-01 at 09:59. |
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2011-10-01, 09:53 | Link #24748 | |
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This is of course irrational but accepting that this is how he saw that, it's not that strange that he was afraid. What would you think if memories of a person that isn't you were slowly piling up in your brain and if those memories were slowly altering your own personality? Just think about "Total Recall" and you get the picture. If Douglas Quaid only had the choice to either kill himself or becoming Hauser he'd probably choose the former. Naturally this is the situation as it was described, its plausibility is a whole different matter. I've never heard of an amnesiac refuting to acknowledge his recovering memories as his own and I'm quite skeptical about this possibility.
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2011-10-01, 09:58 | Link #24749 | ||
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That was also the reason he said why he didn't want to meet Ange, because it would imply accepting that he (Tôya) is merely a fake residing in Ushiromiya Battler's body. In the scene at the end of EP8 he's also not very amused by Yukari/Ange calling him Onii-chan all of a sudden, because it's basically what he wanted to avoid. Battler culprit is possible...I think it's also not that much unlikely considering Ikuko's, Tôya's and Yukari's behaviour. It's at least liklier than some other family members commiting the murder, as he is basically the only one who has no immediate attachements on the island. Quote:
EDIT: I've heard of such cases and it's not really plain amnesia...I forgot where I read it (I got the tip from a friend who's more knowledgable about human physiology) but it's basically that through a damage to your brain everything except the most basic functional things can be made inaccesable. Therefore everything you do from that point on is a new life...you basically don't even remember that you don't remember. Last edited by haguruma; 2011-10-01 at 10:08. |
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2011-10-01, 10:18 | Link #24750 | ||
Goat
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Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
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At first he just suppressed the Battler identity. But then Ange tried to contact 'Hachijou Touya' (the author). Touya hesitated to meet her though, because he was afraid of the expectation to fill the role expected as her brother. Then Ange disappeared (in truth becoming Kotobuki Yukari) and he regretted his decision; he began to feel that it was his duty to Ange to return to being Battler. He struggled and struggled (for years, IIRC), but no matter what Touya could not be Battler; Battler was a different person. It was somewhere in this period that he had a fit and attempted suicide. It's pretty obvious that Ange's episode 4 appearance and death in the meta-world is a reflection of Ange's real-life attempt to contact Touya and her subsequent disappearance. So, we're back to my original question: Was Touya's attempted suicide reflected somewhere in the meta-narrative? And if it was, where? I'm leaning towards the end of episode 5, but would like to hear what others think. |
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2011-10-01, 11:09 | Link #24751 | ||||
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Unless you mean the stories. Even then, in a few episodes there are possible alternatives. As far as using literary conceits as detective methods, well, didn't that wind up with Kyrie being incriminated? There was a complete absence of actual evidence for her, yet so many people were like "Yeah, I could see that." Quote:
Of course the literary treatment of Toya's condition is not very much like a fugue state at all. For one, it isn't temporary, which most fugues are. For another, I'm pretty sure the fugue state isn't aware of the return of memories (in no small part because their return is as sudden as the beginning of the dissociative fugue itself). I think Jan-Poo's association with the film Total Recall is better. Let's throw out realistic psychology and just assume that the incident boxed up Battler's entire identity and memory and shoved it in a corner. Toya was then allowed to exist by building his own entirely independent identity on the life he actually knew. Then one day for whatever reason the box got a little beaten up and Toya peeked briefly inside, kind of like when Quaid sees the video made by Hauser. He's seeing an entirely different person, yet one who absolutely perfectly resembles him and whose memories he at least suspects (and in Toya's case perhaps knows) predate his own. From the perspective of the current personality (Quaid/Toya), that's quite a shock, because not being the "original you" casts doubt on whether "you" even exist. Philosophically I don't think it's an issue, but I'm sure that's not comforting to Toya and his fake literary mental condition, whatever it is. Quote:
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2011-10-01, 11:37 | Link #24752 | |
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2011-10-01, 12:00 | Link #24753 | |
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There are few cases in which amnesiac people avoid the past and, as far as I know those are in case of serious brain damage (think at "Regarding Henry" in which he was reduced to an almost childish state before slowly recovering) or in case of traumatic past. Toya doesn't seem reduced to a child level, although he underwent brain damage but he likely saw something traumatic. When he regains his memory from what I gathered he doesn't remember happy childhood moments but the Rokkenjima tragedy of which he views himself as responsible not as assassin but as someone who caused it to happen (there are hints about this). What he might be refusing is the happy Battler who has incidentally set into motion the whole thing and had to live through the whole thing without being able to stop it as well as the effect the tragedy has/had on him. In addition there should be contrasting feelings about the whole matter. For example Battler cared for his relatives so he would likely search excuses for their behaviour but, at the same time Toya could care less about them and could be honestly disgusted about their behaviour and fail to accept it creating conflicting feelings and refusal of the 'Battler's soul'. Plus, Toya had all the time to build up a Toya's personality that can be different from Battler's. If he had recovered his memory short after the incident Toya wouldn't exist yet but if many years had gone from the incident Toya is definitely a person of his own that might differ from Battler quite a bit. (also if Ikuko=Yasu, he might have been forced to accept that Ikuko, who's at least his friend, might have a part in the tragedy and kept it hidden from him. He might found hard to believe in her all of sudden and, at the same time, refuse it because maybe she was the only person on whom he could rely. It's definitely scary and, if he weren't able to prove she was Yasu nor remember well her involvement, he might feel at the same time as if he was suspecting her of something she hadn't done. It's scary and confusing to say the least). Still yes, it seems weird that Toya apparently showed no interest at all in his past life. Ikuko however might have tricked him too telling him that no one had searched for him so he likely had no one that cared for him. |
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2011-10-01, 12:51 | Link #24754 | |
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'Course in terms of science, this is all nonsense. Anyway, onto what you were saying about Battler getting stronger... I think the strength that BATTLER develops at the end of episode 5 reflects his new-found (or found-again) acceptance of, and strong attachment to, the world of illusion. In other words, from his resurrection in episode 5 and onward BATTLER is most certainly thriving, but he is doing so completely as a being of a "magical" world; especially after switching sides it becomes clear that his goal is no longer to "escape from the witch". How this is related to an attempted suicide is hard to say. Perhaps it marked Battler's ultimate victory in his goal to not be restored. |
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2011-10-01, 13:12 | Link #24755 | ||
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Also, Ikuko did inform Touya when Ange tried to contact him in 1998; she even thought that he should meet her. He refused. |
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2011-10-01, 13:15 | Link #24756 | ||
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Tôya is affraid of Battler's memory because to him it is not his past life. It is the life of a stranger which suddenly turned up in his brain but to which he shows no emotional attachments. He remembers all of Battler's private past but only essential parts of Rokkenjima which he needed to understand the truth...the details are still hazy even to him. For example, when Yukari asks Tôya if he remembers her hair-beads (Ange) he says that he has a memory of getting it for her and how Battler was happy that he could give that present to her, but apparently it means nothing to him personally. Ikuko said she even encouraged him to meet Ange when she tried first to make contact over the agent of Hachijô Tôya. It was Tôya himself who refused meeting Ange, because it would have meant that he had an attachement to her, which basically meant he was Ushiromiya Battler. He felt genuinly guilty for doing that to a relative of Battler, but he did not seem to feel sorry for Ange on a personal level. He showed interest in the events so far that he had this ambigious craving to know more about himself, he wanted to prove his own existence and his own selfworth. It's basically similar to Shannon and Kanon...they grew "human" through their life and the people around him, even though they are basically not the original person they become alive and grow hopes and dreams of their own because they are lived. Quote:
Of course this can imply that he himself was the culprit and that the thing he saw worthy to protect was himself... |
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2011-10-01, 13:41 | Link #24757 | |
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2011-10-01, 14:10 | Link #24758 | |||
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As soon as he woke up a 'Toya's personality' didn't really exist yet. Toya has no memories nor life or friends on which he can cling. Therefore it should be normal for him to wonder 'who am I? Do I have a family, friends, people I care for and that care for me?'. This wondering should have remained nagging him even as he began building up a Toya's personality. Of course, once the Toya's personality began to have birth and he began to build up a new life, recovering the Battler's personality and memories could have been troublesome. Trying to kill himself over it however seems a bit of an exaggerate reaction, unless a trauma is connected to Battler or the two are totally different. Memories are just memories, they can't 'take control' of you, though they can influence your actions because they give you additional experience, feelings and informations. However in which 'scary way' those memories could influence Toya? Would it be so wrong for him to be Ange's big brother? Would those memories try to push him to totally change his life? My guess is that more than the 'Battler's personality' he's scared by the trauma the Battler's personality underwent. For example, if he were to keep on dreaming his relatives shooting at each other he might feel tempted to deny any connection with that scene, to refuse any connection with that scene. This hadn't happened to him, it's something that had happened to someone else. Toya's relatives, whoever they were, wouldn't do it, so he can't be Battler, so Ange can't be his little sister, so he doesn't even want to see her. This is a perfectly normal reaction... but it's based more on the refusal of a traumatic past than of a mere personality. Of course, once I'll manage to read Ep 8 myself my perception might change... so I'm really waiting anxiously for it to be released. |
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2011-10-01, 14:11 | Link #24759 | |
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Renall covered my thoughts on the other two possible times of the suicide (episode 4 identity crisis and the episode 6 logic error). |
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2011-10-01, 14:14 | Link #24760 | ||
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However it can be Toya's character is just like that. It's a bit odd but it's possible. |
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