Macross Frontier (Macross 25) general discussion [No Spoilers]

[raile]

Originally Posted by Swampstorm

Let's just say that it all started in the episode 15 thread at around page 8 when someone decided to refer to Sheryl exclusively using either "Fairy 9" or the dehumanizing pronoun "it". Banter ensued, and Skull 4 was eventually dragged in the mix to give her company. There's a bit of it in page 11 of the character thread as well (I'm using the default settings for displaying threads).

Naturally, we ended up reclaiming the term for use in our own nefarious plans.

I'm unclear on the exact details of how the name was finally proposed and who suggested it, but hopefully someone still has their irc logs from around that time. Good times, though.

Oh, okay! Thank you, mama!

[Yot-chan]

Urgh! Too much to reply to at once... so instead of quoting everybody and go point by point, I'll just speak generally.

Magnus: first, where did you get the idea that the novels are in the same continuity as the show? From skimming them, it seems like they're much like the manga: a different retelling of the same events. Scenes play out differently, dialogue is different. I've seen people here (and ONLY here) float the idea that Kawamori himself supervised the novels, but I haven't seen any proof of that idea offered.

As for translations, for me at least, it's hard, hard work. One page of text can take well over an hour, and even comics can take excruciatingly long. Also, I'd prefer, currently, to work on stuff that is out-of-print, just to be on the safe side.

At MW, I get occasional PMs asking for scans of Macross the First. I tend to take a dim view of these, considering that I bought Volume 1 of the comic twice (one to keep, one to rip apart and scan). As such, while I don't mind sharing the fruits of my labors with people, it's a little disheartening to spend a lot of money getting the comics, hours scanning the pages, and weeks translating them, just to have someone say, "I don't want to buy the comics, can you give them to me?" I dunno...it's a fine line, I guess... But it's my project, and I'm going to do it the way I want, and translate the material I want to translate. What other people want is of no concern to me, since it's not a business, and I get nothing out of it except the satisfaction of a job well done.

But anyway, when you say YOU don't want to buy the books, but you want ME to buy them and translate them FOR YOU, I gotta ask: What do I get out of it?

Sorry if I'm coming across as harsh, but it seems to me that you are (admittedly gently) asking me to stop working on the stuff I want to work on, and work instead on the stuff I don't want to work on, simply because you'd rather see it.

If I'm wrong in that interpretation, please correct me.

Swampstorm: I have a lot of sympathy with the idea that depth is in the eye of the beholder, but again, I think it only works up to a point. I do believe in distinctions between "high" and "low" art, (some art is good, some is bad; but I find some bad art more entertaining and resonant than some good art). But were most people get it wrong, in my view, is in the idea that only books, plays, and European films can have "depth," whereas genre stories, comics, and games can't. Storytelling mediums can be used effectively or ineffectively, and I'd place an effective comic over an ineffective epic poem any day.

But again (and I hasten to restate that I do ENJOY a lot of the analyses I've read, like Ghostlightning's and Magus's), it usually tells me more about the author than about the work. I'm sure the Aliens essay you read was amazing (I can easily imagine that that topic would bear fruit), but I'm sure it told you more about the author's ideas about the work than it did about understanding the work itself. Criticism of stories has been wholly consumed by amateur sociology, which I think is a shame. Samuel Johnson should be required reading for anyone who wants to write about stories...but that's a different rant which I don't feel like writing now.

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by Yot-chan

Magnus: first, where did you get the idea that the novels are in the same continuity as the show? From skimming them, it seems like they're much like the manga: a different retelling of the same events. Scenes play out differently, dialogue is different. I've seen people here (and ONLY here) float the idea that Kawamori himself supervised the novels, but I haven't seen any proof of that idea offered.

Interesting point, although, as far I know, you also don't have anything which says otherwise. Of course I am also a bit surprised that some people now claim that Kawamori declared the novels in-canon, since I never heard of that before. If someone knows more details, I'd be delighted to know what really is what.

Originally Posted by Yot-chan

As for translations, for me at least, it's hard, hard work. One page of text can take well over an hour, and even comics can take excruciatingly long. Also, I'd prefer, currently, to work on stuff that is out-of-print, just to be on the safe side.

At MW, I get occasional PMs asking for scans of Macross the First. I tend to take a dim view of these, considering that I bought Volume 1 of the comic twice (one to keep, one to rip apart and scan). As such, while I don't mind sharing the fruits of my labors with people, it's a little disheartening to spend a lot of money getting the comics, hours scanning the pages, and weeks translating them, just to have someone say, "I don't want to buy the comics, can you give them to me?" I dunno...it's a fine line, I guess... But it's my project, and I'm going to do it the way I want, and translate the material I want to translate. What other people want is of no concern to me, since it's not a business, and I get nothing out of it except the satisfaction of a job well done.

But anyway, when you say YOU don't want to buy the books, but you want ME to buy them and translate them FOR YOU, I gotta ask: What do I get out of it?

Sorry if I'm coming across as harsh, but it seems to me that you are (admittedly gently) asking me to stop working on the stuff I want to work on, and work instead on the stuff I don't want to work on, simply because you'd rather see it.

If I'm wrong in that interpretation, please correct me.

Oh, I definitely would prefer you working on stuff I want to see translated, which doesn't mean I am trying to impose that on you. Which doesn't mean I cannot beg from time to time. I hope the difference between the three standpoints is clear. ^^

As to you buying the stuff which I am not willing to buy ( which is kinda unfair... you speak and read Japanese, I do not ), it's on the same scale as the groups who do fansubs. They also don't get anything else than the admiration and respect of their peers for it. If that isn't worth it for you specifically, then that's also okay.

Originally Posted by Yot-chan

Swampstorm: I have a lot of sympathy with the idea that depth is in the eye of the beholder, but again, I think it only works up to a point. I do believe in distinctions between "high" and "low" art, (some art is good, some is bad; but I find some bad art more entertaining and resonant than some good art). But were most people get it wrong, in my view, is in the idea that only books, plays, and European films can have "depth," whereas genre stories, comics, and games can't. Storytelling mediums can be used effectively or ineffectively, and I'd place an effective comic over an ineffective epic poem any day.

But again (and I hasten to restate that I do ENJOY a lot of the analyses I've read, like Ghostlightning's and Magus's), it usually tells me more about the author than about the work. I'm sure the Aliens essay you read was amazing (I can easily imagine that that topic would bear fruit), but I'm sure it told you more about the author's ideas about the work than it did about understanding the work itself. Criticism of stories has been wholly consumed by amateur sociology, which I think is a shame. Samuel Johnson should be required reading for anyone who wants to write about stories...but that's a different rant which I don't feel like writing now.

Now, I read a lot. And I mean, really a lot. But most of it are modern science-fiction and fantasy novels, comics, fan-fiction and lots of political news, forums for RPG's, MMO's, anime and Star Wars. Because I don't adher to the principle that the only worthy literature is the one which makes you feel sad after you finish reading it. And some of the stuff I read is not only interesting and fun to watch, but also something which stays with me for a long time, like Macross Frontier.

That doesn't make it Shakespeare, but it makes the work a lasting good experience. I think I will remember this show always, at least about Sheryl and surely a bit about Alto. Both those characters were people I would have liked to know in real life. Fortunately. I got at least one amazing friend who is more or less a male Sheryl, in many an aspect.

[Yot-chan]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Interesting point, although, as far I know, you also don't have anything which says otherwise. Of course I am also a bit surprised that some people now claim that Kawamori declared the novels in-canon, since I never heard of that before. If someone knows more details, I'd be delighted to know what really is what.

No, I don't have anything that says Kawamori didn't supervise the novels, but I won't believe that he did unless someone can cite some sources.

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Oh, I definitely would prefer you working on stuff I want to see translated, which doesn't mean I am trying to impose that on you. Which doesn't mean I cannot beg from time to time. I hope the difference between the three standpoints is clear. ^^

Fair enough.

Originally Posted by magnuskn

As to you buying the stuff which I am not willing to buy ( which is kinda unfair... you speak and read Japanese, I do not ), it's on the same scale as the groups who do fansubs. They also don't get anything else than the admiration and respect of their peers for it. If that isn't worth it for you specifically, then that's also okay.

Again, sorry, but I don't have a whole lot of sympathy. I was buying Japanese comics WELL before I learned any Japanese, or even had any WAY to learn Japanese. And I'm not alone. Tons of us who were fans in the '80s and (early) '90s had no other way to experience anime and manga...no one was bringing the stuff out in English, so we had to go to the source. I don't want to turn this into a cranky "in my day, we had it ROUGH" kind of rant, so I won't. I'll just say that a lot of us bought comics (and anime) we couldn't understand...but the nice thing about Japanese comics is that they're so visual and "cinematic" that it's usually pretty easy to follow the story, even if you can't read the words. And don't a lot of people buy comics for the art, anyway?

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Now, I read a lot. And I mean, really a lot. But most of it are modern science-fiction and fantasy novels, comics, fan-fiction and lots of political news, forums for RPG's, MMO's, anime and Star Wars. Because I don't adher to the principle that the only worthy literature is the one which makes you feel sad after you finish reading it. And some of the stuff I read is not only interesting and fun to watch, but also something which stays with me for a long time, like Macross Frontier.

That doesn't make it Shakespeare, but it makes the work a lasting good experience.

I absolutely agree with you. Macross has (obviously) stayed with ME a very long time, as well. I love it to pieces, in nearly all its various iterations and sequels. But again, that probably tells people more about ME and my tastes than it does about the quality of the show.

[CaptGloval]

That's strange, I remember seeing an SDF Macross thread in this subforum before, or were my eyes playing tricks on me. I guess, for those who want to rewatch SDF Macross and discuss it, an SDF Macross thread should be created.

Anyway, I was looking for that thread because there's no Macross general discussion thread here, and I'd like to post a crazy idea that just came to me. Perhaps this thread may be suitable enough for now.

I guess we all know about the 1:1 Gundam that was built to commemorate its 30th anniversary. Macross' own 30th anniversary is coming up and I thought it might be cool to do something similar. Actually, forget about the 30th anniversary deadline, just make something similarly awesome.

For one, a 1:1 VF battroid may also be built, or some F-14s may be slightly modified, but it most possibly wouldn't come as one transformable unit. Besides, it could be seen as too similar a gimmick to the 1:1 Gundam.

Now instead of VFs, why not the ships? For instance, while the SDF-1 might be too huge to replicate, how about a building that looks as if the Macross Quarter (cruiser mode) has landed on earth?

Alternatively, the SDF-1 is the iconic Macross ship, so we may have to use this instead. There might be a way to work around its enormity: we may recreate it as it stands in its landing crater at Macross City. This would mean building only half of it (with dimensions, HxWxL, of about 600x500x300 meters, with about 200 meters of the height from the Cannon) -- still a monumental effort. The lake surrounding it would actually be a shallow moat. Since this is a building, it could be used permanently: perhaps some parts can be a hotel for the tourists (at the same time, there's no stopping anyone from making it a residential or commercial space, lol). After all, this was the ship that housed a city in exile. Perhaps they could use something like a light carrier for the arms. At least there's a landing strip for those who want to arrive in style.

In all, it's still a colossal undertaking worthy of a big-shot developer. I guess it could be similar in scale to building the Burj Khalifa in Dubai--and that one got built.

Well, that's it for my crazy idea, what do you guys think?

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by Yot-chan

No, I don't have anything that says Kawamori didn't supervise the novels, but I won't believe that he did unless someone can cite some sources.

Such is the legacy of the fake liner notes.

Originally Posted by Yot-chan

Again, sorry, but I don't have a whole lot of sympathy. I was buying Japanese comics WELL before I learned any Japanese, or even had any WAY to learn Japanese. And I'm not alone. Tons of us who were fans in the '80s and (early) '90s had no other way to experience anime and manga...no one was bringing the stuff out in English, so we had to go to the source. I don't want to turn this into a cranky "in my day, we had it ROUGH" kind of rant, so I won't. I'll just say that a lot of us bought comics (and anime) we couldn't understand...but the nice thing about Japanese comics is that they're so visual and "cinematic" that it's usually pretty easy to follow the story, even if you can't read the words. And don't a lot of people buy comics for the art, anyway?

Well, I don't. Lovely art is nice and dandy and I'd never disparage comics as a medium ( since I collect Marvel comics ), but the writing is what makes a story great for me. If I cannot understand it, then it's worth less than half, IMO. I could never have seen a drawing of Sheryl, but if Macross Frontier would have been a book, I would have loved her character all the same.

Originally Posted by Yot-chan

I absolutely agree with you. Macross has (obviously) stayed with ME a very long time, as well. I love it to pieces, in nearly all its various iterations and sequels. But again, that probably tells people more about ME and my tastes than it does about the quality of the show.

Eh, partially. IMO, having someone whose taste I admire recommend something to me has more weight than from some random person. You can of course tell something about a person by the kind of cultural products he spends his time with, but you can also tell something about the cultural products by the kinds of persons who use them for entertainment.

[Yot-chan]

Originally Posted by cheesie

On that note, looking forward to much eye-glazing tl;dr.

Your wish is my command!

Originally Posted by Swampstorm

To this day, I'm still unclear on why people envision the V-virus as an STI. I suppose that there might be something that I'm missing in the translation, but an infection can be transmitted by a "bodily fluid" (i.e. by respiratory droplets, blood, etc.) and yet not be transmitted through sexual contact. Think of WNV, rather than HIV.

WNV is a really weird case, though. Normally, it's a "dead-end" virus in mammals...it doesn't reproduce enough inside mammals' bodies to be infectious. Birds, yes. Mosquitos, yes. Humans, no. Now, there ARE strains that are communicable between humans, but they're rare. And yes, they CAN be transmitted through sex.

To state the simple truth again: sex is one of the EASIEST ways (if not THE easiest) for viruses to jump from one host to another. There is no contact with the outside environment, and there is warmth and moisture. Saying that a virus can be transmitted by, say, a sneeze, or by shaking hands, but not by sex is like saying that a certain bullet can go through four plates of solid steel, but would be stopped by origami paper.

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Wait, so what Yot-Chan and Beto told me ( if it is transmittable by bodily fluids, it is 100% surely transmittable through sex ) was wrong?

I recant my change of opinion from yesterday completely. They did have sex like bunnies.

Again, I'd reiterate my (and Beto's) suggestion that you DO THE RESEARCH. Wikipedia and Google are your friends.

[BetoJR]

Replying in the right place, following Yot-chan's hint.

Originally Posted by Swampstorm

By "bad example," you seem to be implying that WNV is an STI because it can be transmitted by means of breast milk. Strictly speaking, this point is relevant to the present discussion only if a) the woman in question is currently producing breast milk and b) her partner insists on drinking it. If this strikes your fancy as a requisite part of sexual intercourse, then by all means, feel free to call it an "STI".

More on that later. Hint: it was sort of a joke. There was even a smiley...

Originally Posted by Swampstorm

My main point, somewhere in my first post on the subject, was that you can't think of "bodily fluids" as a collective entity. A pathogen can be present in one or more of those "bodily fluids", and yet not be present in every "bodily fluid".

And whoever said it did? I was just stating that we cannot exclude all the fluids exchanged during sex - I mean, it only lacks blood and feces, but even then that's debatable.

Originally Posted by Swampstorm

I'm not really out to fight anyone over the matter. I'm just unclear on why people are intent on treating the V-virus as an STI when, to the best of my knowledge, the story itself did not make any such claim.

I'm not treating it as an STI or an STD or whatever the PC term for this kind of conditions is these days, but merely as a disease communicable via bodily fluids. It just so happens that most of those can be transmitted while having sex.

Also, acronyms and typification of any kind really do tend to set me off big time.

No clue.

I did already explain it, in a previous post over at the image thread, but if you need it any more clear, it was simply a commentary made in jest to imply that something that can be transmitted via any action so intimate as breast feeding... The mere thought that it couldn't be transmitted through sex is unfathomable, to me.

[magnuskn]

Oh, well. So Swampy is wrong this time?

[Yot-chan]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Oh, well. So Swampy is wrong this time?

Do you want my answer, or do you want Beto's?

[magnuskn]

Whomever keeps the discussion going.

Ahem, seriously now, I mostly would like an actual answer to the question. And, yes, I realize I could do the research myself, but I am pressed for time right now. ^^

[BetoJR]

You've had plenty of answers to tide you over, so far. Do you need us to cosplay as doctors, so it would be more realistic, I take it?

I do look good in white, tho.

[Swampstorm]

Originally Posted by Yot-chan

And yes, they CAN be transmitted through sex.

None of my clinical micro textbooks make any mention of sexual transmission with regards to WNV. Is this a new finding, and if so, would you please provide a source?

Originally Posted by Yot-chan

To state the simple truth again: sex is one of the EASIEST ways (if not THE easiest) for viruses to jump from one host to another. There is no contact with the outside environment, and there is warmth and moisture. Saying that a virus can be transmitted by, say, a sneeze, or by shaking hands, but not by sex is like saying that a certain bullet can go through four plates of solid steel, but would be stopped by origami paper.

Irrespective of whether sex is an effective method of viral transmission in general, the virus actually needs to be in your genital secretions to begin with in order for it to take advantage of that route. This is dependent in part on viral host cell specificity, the responses initiated by your immune system, and the fact that there are regulatory mechanisms in place that govern the transport of substances between different fluid compartments. Viral lysogeny can play a role as well, but that's more of a specific mechanism.

So no. Not every virus is transmitted sexually.

Originally Posted by Yot-chan

Wikipedia and Google are your friends.

Irony, I hope?

Originally Posted by BetoJR

And whoever said it did? I was just stating that we cannot exclude all the fluids exchanged during sex - I mean, it only lacks blood and feces, but even then that's debatable.

Rats. There goes the foreplay. How will Alto and Sheryl manage?

Originally Posted by BetoJR

I'm not treating it as an STI or an STD or whatever the PC term for this kind of conditions is these days, but merely as a disease communicable via bodily fluids. It just so happens that most of those can be transmitted while having sex.

Unfortunately, given the primarily liquid composition of our bodies, infectious disease invariably involves some "bodily fluid" or the other. Yet not all infections are STIs.

Originally Posted by BetoJR

Also, acronyms and typification of any kind really do tend to set me off big time.

Feel free to write out the terms in full, then.

Originally Posted by BetoJR

I did already explain it, in a previous post over at the image thread, but if you need it any more clear, it was simply a commentary made in jest to imply that something that can be transmitted via any action so intimate as breast feeding... The mere thought that it couldn't be transmitted through sex is unfathomable, to me.

I suspect that this may be more a reflection of the state of an infant's immune system as opposed to the dissemination of the virus across all of an infected individual's bodily fluids.

[BetoJR]

Originally Posted by Swampstorm

None of my clinical micro textbooks make any mention of sexual transmission with regards to WNV. Is this a new finding, and if so, would you please provide a source?

Well, WNV isn't really all that communicable outside of mosquito bites (mammals are termed dead-end infections, last time I checked) or blood transfusions. There were cases in the US related to breast feeding and intra uterine exposure, but those weren't really a high percentage, were they?
Maybe we should find another disease to compare to the V-Type infection?

Originally Posted by Swampstorm

Irrespective of whether sex is an effective method of viral transmission in general, the virus actually needs to be in your genital secretions to begin with in order for it to take advantage of that route. This is dependent in part on viral host cell specificity, the responses initiated by your immune system, and the fact that there are regulatory mechanisms in place that govern the transport of substances between different fluid compartments. Viral lysogeny can play a role as well, but that's more of a specific mechanism.

So no. Not every virus is transmitted sexually.

You seem to be focusing exclusively on the actual genital transmission. There's all kinds of other stuff going on during sex, most of the time.
And lots of them involve direct exchange of a whole plethora of bodily fluids.

Originally Posted by Swampstorm

Rats. There goes the foreplay. How will Alto and Sheryl manage?

Oh, I think they'll manage just fine. They even showed it to us on episode 24, with all that saliva-swapping (oh, a bodily fluid), didn't they? Okay, mostly Sheryl, but...

Originally Posted by Swampstorm

Unfortunately, given the primarily liquid composition of our bodies, infectious disease invariably involves some "bodily fluid" or the other. Yet not all infections are STIs.

And no one is disputing that. But the act of sex doesn't simply involve genital contact, either.

Originally Posted by Swampstorm

I suspect that this may be more a reflection of the state of an infant's immune system as opposed to the dissemination of the virus across all of an infected individual's bodily fluids.

Could be, but it was a nice example, wasn't it?

[DeX-kun]

It looks to me like there really isn't a right or wrong answer here. Yes the V-virus can be transmitted through sex but you can also conclude that sex isn't the only possible method for being infected.

I believe the point here lies in the fact that as long as there is a chance for the V-virus to be transmitted through sex, it will be a risk.

[Tak]

And I had forgotten how much we love to render something more complicated than was intended...

- Tak

[BetoJR]

Tell me about it...

[Foreshadow]

Originally Posted by Tak

And I had forgotten how much we love to render something more complicated than was intended...

- Tak

It's more fun this way isn't it?


fluid is far to general of a term to really go off of for anything. It's pretty much so general that the directors can do whatever they want with it. For all we know, the fluid they could be talking about is Saliva.


But assuming that it's sexually transmitted I don't think is correct. It could be, but I don't see any reason why it definitely is. I'd think the transmission rate would be a lot higher and the problem would probably a lot more mass spread.

[magnuskn]

Well, so far I am coming down on the side of Swampy ( which of course shouldn't be much of a surprise, given my predilections ^^ ), because as of now it seems like the definite statement of Yot-Chan and Beto ( all diseases involving bodily fluids are definitely also transmitted via sexual intercourse ) has so far been successfully contradicted by Swampy.

[BetoJR]

I'd like to know how those claims were contradicted, myself. Clearly, I do not agree with such a statement.

But, in all honesty, I'm not really all that interested in a long discussion about something we don't even have the specifics about... but no, I don't think one can successfully claim that a disease communicable via (general) bodily fluids - and not simply through blood, as the chatacyers in the show did not specify such a thing - cannot be transmitted through the whole act of sexual intercourse (and not simply through the genitals, like Swampy was trying to claim).

However, feel free to disagree. It's more fun that way.