[MANGA] what went wrong in bleach?

[Haak]

^ Actually, I forsee that aspect of Soul Society having a bigger role on the plot later on.

[Cub-Sama]

Originally Posted by roriconfan

I see all of us agree that we don't like the shonen casts to be treated as MMORPG characters: They respawn and have no personalities.

Actually MMORPG characters have personality...they are more like the NPCs on shooting games that die and come back to help later.

Originally Posted by Haak

^ Actually, I forsee that aspect of Soul Society having a bigger role on the plot later on.

What is the plot right now? Just stop Aizen from destroying the world?

[Captain Yoruichi]

Kubo writes Bleach for the Japanese audience, that's why it doesn't fit American tastes quite as well. Japan loves Hitsugaya, for example. And Momo. Which is why neither of them have died even though they should have a few times.

Between fan pressure and editor pressure, there are probably times that Kubo can't write what he really wants. If that problem could be fixed, we might see a different Bleach.

[kayote]

then he should learn how to make it work.

sort out the manga, in terms of power levels and explanations on Age, look of the characters (if someone is 100 years old than what is it that makes them stay like that. how come yachiru and Hitsu don't age)................and on on

i.e. when naruto shippuden started most were annoyed with naruto and look at him now he's not just a person preaching and annoying all the time, now he has power to back it up.

i mean even OGreat's Air gear has better explanations. they might be pluked out of the air sometimes but, there is still something there.

you can't just keep going on to enemy's who are more powerfull one by one. Build a base like Oda did with OP.

[XLilaX]

I hate Inoue's power its so unfair because she could just bring the dead back to life -_-" FAIL!!!!!

I think the SSArc was the best because Ichigo was pwned by some badass people but then Yoruichi trains him up a bit and BAM!!!!! He owns every body from Byakuya go back but now Ichigo is just getting beat up and in no fight has he remained unscathed which is lame cuz I dont want to see the hero getting pushed around CONSTANTLY!!!! Every one here is saying that somebody should die but I think that somebody should have an awesome fight and somebody unexpected like Inoue like for the part where she was crying for ichigo and he turns full hollw I thought that Inoue should've gone plotkai instead of Ichigo
Admit it wont any body wanna see Inoue beat Ulq for her man !!!!! XD i'm just saying.....

[kamyu]

Originally Posted by XLilaX

I hate Inoue's power its so unfair because she could just bring the dead back to life -_-" FAIL!!!!!

I think the SSArc was the best because Ichigo was pwned by some badass people but then Yoruichi trains him up a bit and BAM!!!!! He owns every body from Byakuya go back but now Ichigo is just getting beat up and in no fight has he remained unscathed which is lame cuz I dont want to see the hero getting pushed around CONSTANTLY!!!! Every one here is saying that somebody should die but I think that somebody should have an awesome fight and somebody unexpected like Inoue like for the part where she was crying for ichigo and he turns full hollw I thought that Inoue should've gone plotkai instead of Ichigo
Admit it wont any body wanna see Inoue beat Ulq for her man !!!!! XD i'm just saying.....

ichigo didn't own byakuya. he barely survived even with hichigo's help.
in fact, i can be (and has been) argued that the byakuya let ichigo have the win.
i don't think ichigo has had a single fight in all of bleach where he wasn't beat up in the process (except normal no name hollow). closest would be that privaron he fought, but i think he took some good hits before pulling the mask.

[Le_Rukia]

Originally Posted by kamyu

ichigo didn't own byakuya. he barely survived even with hichigo's help.
in fact, i can be (and has been) argued that the byakuya let ichigo have the win.
i don't think ichigo has had a single fight in all of bleach where he wasn't beat up in the process (except normal no name hollow). closest would be that privaron he fought, but i think he took some good hits before pulling the mask.

I have to agree here ... Ichigo bearly won that fight... Byakuya had enough strength to walked away and come back and save Rukia...

Ichigo love him does get Pwned in almost ever fight he is in... which helps us to relate to him being Human

[Nosauz]

Well the way I see it when we make analogies to games, its kind of like playing a konami beatem up with infinite lives, you start to see that the baddies your beating up are just the same reskinned ninja's (referring to turtles 3) or the same damn cowboy bandit, and then the blaring flaws of the fact that you can only really move in very limited grid becomes very apparent, it pretty much destroys most of the immersion into the game/anime/manga, more so in the latter two since the first could be just a reset to a previous state where the others are very blaring that certain characters just don't die.

Now I think the only really good representation of "infinte life" would have to be Venture Brothers, where even with recurring death its comedic and serves quite a funny purpose to really bring out the absurdity which is strives for but when you look at something like bleach, where skill and mastery are the clinching factor to whether you live or die makes it quite bland especially when the characters infact don't die.

I'll mention vagabond because the fighting genre style fits, but yea when the characters in Vagabond are in life and death sitatuions more emotions come out, when death is iminent no longer is just to live another day, you actually feel the death, and the finality to the conclusion of a battle, it makes the experience much more forceful with something so final punctuates the story, but in bleach its kinda hard to get attached to a character in the middle of a heated battle because they won't die, which inherently lies in the problem with the manga, and its anime adapation, if you read naruto too you can definitely see where I'm coming from

[Crusader]

The "War" i thought would have been more full scale, and less back alley. I swear that right now it seems that they is a gang war going on in FKT. It doesn't really feel like a war, just some people fighting.

[Sabaku Kyu]

Originally Posted by kamyu

ichigo didn't own byakuya. he barely survived even with hichigo's help.
in fact, i can be (and has been) argued that the byakuya let ichigo have the win.
i don't think ichigo has had a single fight in all of bleach where he wasn't beat up in the process (except normal no name hollow). closest would be that privaron he fought, but i think he took some good hits before pulling the mask.

Well, before Ichigo fought Byakuya he did effortlessly defeat 3 VC's without even using his zanpakuto much less bankai. When you consider that their rank means these guys were supposed to be more or less around Renji's level, it was impressive. Before that, Ichigo blocked the soukyoku which had the power of a million zanpakuto. Ichigo was built up to be pretty über even though Bya quickly proved to be more than a match and Aizen made him look insignificant.

Originally Posted by Nosauz

I'll mention vagabond because the fighting genre style fits, but yea when the characters in Vagabond are in life and death sitatuions more emotions come out, when death is iminent no longer is just to live another day, you actually feel the death, and the finality to the conclusion of a battle, it makes the experience much more forceful with something so final punctuates the story, but in bleach its kinda hard to get attached to a character in the middle of a heated battle because they won't die, which inherently lies in the problem with the manga, and its anime adapation, if you read naruto too you can definitely see where I'm coming from

Vagabond is hard to compare to Bleach though because it's in a much more realistic setting than Bleach and its battles are way more brutal than anything Bleach could get away with.

It's based on a novel which is in turn loosely based on the life of the real-life samurai Musashi, so in a way, it suffers from a similar problem. You know Musashi and Koujiro will live until they fight each other and everyone else they face before that will get cut down simply because that's the way it played out historically.

But you really hit the nail on the head when you said it's all about immersion. Bleach fights fail to draw me in lately because they lack weight. The fact that the shinigami don't die isn't the disappointment for me. It's the fact that they don't even really seem to be struggling. One side pulls out a gimmick and the other opponent pulls out a bigger, flashier gimmick. The fights really need to be more dynamic and feel less like watching two sides taking turns to attack each other.

[roriconfan]

Well, most captains and espada have special bankai and release forms, yet they refuse to reveal them. As if it is a secret not to show to anyone. I mean, the captains in Karakura needed to be one step before dying to take out the restriction seal just to beat in a flash a bunch of frachions. Again, Soi Fong had extra bankai forms that refused to show so far, despite the dangers. Why? What will the enemy do if he knows you own him? He will not fight you, he will run away or surrender. But no, in the Bleachverse for some insane reason everyone is curious to see the other guy's powers. So, instead of killing him right away, they waste time and indanger their lives (lives as ghosts?) just to force him with one liners to get to full power. Well, excuse me, wouldn't he get to full power right away if you get to full power right away and thus be afraid enough to play serious? This is plain BS Kubo is feeding his audience.

[kamyu]

Originally Posted by roriconfan

Well, most captains and espada have special bankai and release forms, yet they refuse to reveal them. As if it is a secret not to show to anyone. I mean, the captains in Karakura needed to be one step before dying to take out the restriction seal just to beat in a flash a bunch of frachions. Again, Soi Fong had extra bankai forms that refused to show so far, despite the dangers. Why? What will the enemy do if he knows you own him? He will not fight you, he will run away or surrender. But no, in the Bleachverse for some insane reason everyone is curious to see the other guy's powers. So, instead of killing him right away, they waste time and indanger their lives (lives as ghosts?) just to force him with one liners to get to full power. Well, excuse me, wouldn't he get to full power right away if you get to full power right away and thus be afraid enough to play serious? This is plain BS Kubo is feeding his audience.

the part with the seals was more of a bureaucratic issue. they had too much red tape to get through to get permission to release the seals. they've streamlined the process since then (next encounter had immediate permission and with fake kk town the seals weren't even applied).

soi fon had an excuse to hold off on bankai since it is supposed to be a one shot thing (though she contradicts herself while saying that.. ). if she were to use it before knowing her opponent then she could be made to miss and lose.

[Haak]

Originally Posted by Cub-Sama

What is the plot right now? Just stop Aizen from destroying the world?

Right now yes, but you know there's still a lot of questions left unanswered. Like Ichigo's dad and the Royal Family.

[XLilaX]

Far as I'm concerned Bleach is a really good anime.... er manga thing .... wateva..... and Kubo is only human I think thats where Bleach went wrong : Human Imperfection

I think we shud appreciate that every one still supports Bleach despite all the "Wrong" (emphasis on quotation marks!!!) things in it, people must be really stupid to enjoy it

Ok all sarcasm aside I think...... ok people need to stay calm for this one...... Bleach should go away for a while..... NOT FOREVER!!!! Just on hiatus so Kubo could get a break from the pressure to put out every week and probably add new ideas and fix old ones

[Nosauz]

Eh, it doesn't need to get on hiatus, but Kubo really needs to look at the mechanics of the manga and get something that goes back to what made the manga good an the beginning

[roriconfan]

Originally Posted by Nosauz

Eh, it doesn't need to get on hiatus, but Kubo really needs to look at the mechanics of the manga and get something that goes back to what made the manga good an the beginning

Like showing where do souls go when a Hollow or Espada kick the bucket (for the second time). Imagine a gayser of 40000 sparkling souls bursting out of Ulqi as he fades away, some of which go to Soul Society and pour down as rain. Orihime crying as she stares at the beautiful scenery, lighting up the dark skies of Hueco Mundo. And then Aizen says over at the battle "Oh dear, there goes Ulqi. Nevermind, he was unimportant after all. It's not like he was hiding a second form and was stronger than he appeared to be. I still have my 3 tops here... Oh dear, another rain; there goes Baraggan..."

See? It's not a hard thing to do. Just don't trash your own ideas Kubo.

[Nosauz]

hmmm, if u read karakura town arc you would understand where these people are coming from, seriously probably some of the worst writing I've read, I mean really, its just a game of who can piss the most in the world's lamest pissing contest. Really, some of the writing, especially the recent junk has been very generic, i think the hieght of kubo's writing was swing back the pendulum which was really good, and the end of ss arc with ichi kenpachi fight top my favorites. Oh yea nad anything isshin, or urahara, are definitely well written but at this point its a really slippery slope to something very generic that was once so fresh

[Wolcik]

Ok, I was wondering when this threat would come back to live, and I knew it would since Bleach doesn't improve. So I put a spin on few things that were mention recently...

Most people is annoyed with mass ressurection in Naruto, but except for that there were few deaths of good guys. Naruto went tottaly emo, but that's nothing compared to Bleach that is 1vs1 after another.

Bleach is just a shounen so it can't hope to be as good as Vagabond. Of course anybody that even read wiki about Musashi will know that Kojiro will eventually die from hands of Takezou, but it's still damn good. Takezou gets new scars and meets interesting people, while Kojiro doesn't get scars.
In Bleach it's not even sure if Ichigo will be the last one to fight Aizen and that's scary.

Barragan's death and power level was another show of didn't noticing plotholes. He was overpowered and then beaten by stupiding him and "discovered weakness". But there is one funny thing about 2nd epsada's speed. Ichigo with bankai was slow for Grimjaw - yet no sword Ichigo deafeted Omaeda with one punch (while deafeting 2 other VCs). Anybody smart could notice how strange it is that Omaeda is able to run from Barragan now.

Any wound like losing an arm will be granded back by Shenlong the magic dragon or rather Orihime. So SoiFong's or Hachi's arms doesn't mean much.

Now that Barragan has been killed, Helibeli will die in next 3-4 chapters and then who knows - Stark?

[Kakashi]

Originally Posted by XLilaX

Ok all sarcasm aside I think...... ok people need to stay calm for this one...... Bleach should go away for a while..... NOT FOREVER!!!! Just on hiatus so Kubo could get a break from the pressure to put out every week and probably add new ideas and fix old ones

I gave Bleach a good three month break to take some of the pressure away from reading it actually.

[Haak]

Originally Posted by Wolcik

Barragan's death and power level was another show of didn't noticing plotholes. He was overpowered and then beaten by stupiding him and "discovered weakness". But there is one funny thing about 2nd epsada's speed. Ichigo with bankai was slow for Grimjaw - yet no sword Ichigo deafeted Omaeda with one punch (while deafeting 2 other VCs). Anybody smart could notice how strange it is that Omaeda is able to run from Barragan now.

Actually, Barry said he made his death breath slow on purpose. So it's not a plot hole but rather character derailment.