[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[Disz]

I don't know.Go check it,foo!

[winter 923]

Why do you want to kill Kumasawa off anyway? because of the magic scene? She is in a comforty room and in EP6 everyone got killed in the magic scenes, some even rosted and they still were alive.

What I wonder is why Kyrie wanted to move to the Mansion. If they just wanted to question Hideyoshi about the fake alibi that could be done in the guest house. Did she think they were faking? Did she fear the safety of the fakers? When was George in the Mansion? I know it's a different magic scene but can't he be there while Kyrie's group is there? And Hideyoshi's execute tip is extremly strange. He had a chest wound but was still living so there is one who can "die for some reason later"

[UsagiTenpura]

Basically in arc 3, as Judoh says, Hideyoshi and Kyrie are the most suspect. Hideyoshi's tip says something like "It's a shame he was still alive" and Kyrie that "her wound isn't a very lethal one".

Suppose we say Kyrie is the culprit, but got wouded while killing Hideyoshi or something, it's no that weird that she'd die of her wound after tho.

Also from Nanjo's reaction (if anything can be trust of it) it seems he was genuinely surprised, somewhat hinted that it wasn't entirely a "fake" death and that even Nanjo thought the culprit dead.

Suppose Kyrie is the culprit, isn't her reason to go to the mansion with the others suddenly obvious?

[chronotrig]

I personally think the EP3 meta-world matches the EP3 game board almost exactly. The first Beatrice committed the first twilight, but was then forced to stop her plan when the gold was found.

I think the red regarding Shannon and Kanon is complicated, but hardly contradictory. It isn't the meaning of "death" that changes arbitrarily, but the types of objects being counted. In other words, after EP4, if you said "Sakutaro is dead" in red, people would know you meant the idea of Sakutaro in Maria's mind, which must follow specific rules that Maria has decided upon, not an actual human death. That's not because you're changing the meaning of the word death, but because you're changing the type of noun that it's referring to. EP6 is even more explicit in its definition of furniture death, so I don't think there can be any argument on this point, though the mechanics of furniture death can certainly be debated. It doesn't prove that Shkanon survived EP3's first twilight, of course, but it does clearly open up that possibility.

Ryuukishi wouldn't have included that bit unless it was meant to be used, and he wouldn't have included the death of Sakutaro in EP4 unless that was in some way significant. It's impossible for its significance to be limited to the emotional impact on Maria. Read through the whole scene, and hopefully you'll see that it's far too specific for that. Also note that this is where Ange proves that she's understood witches, as well as the fact that understanding witches is essential for understanding Beatrice's game, something said over and over again in EP4.

[winter 923]

Oh i just remembered something. Can Nanjo be killed by Kyrie or Hideyoshi? According to Battler: "Good point. That trick worked because the 18 names given didn't match up with the 18 people who actually existed,..." it is not red but he looked pretty confident.

But still interesting that 2 got injured, someone messed around with Kyrie's corpse so there still needs to be someone who sticks stakes into corpses.

[Disz]

Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura

Suppose Kyrie is the culprit, isn't her reason to go to the mansion with the others suddenly obvious?

Yes,but to kill Nanjo isn't as black and white.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

Ryuukishi wouldn't have included that bit unless it was meant to be used, and he wouldn't have included the death of Sakutaro in EP4 unless that was in some way significant. It's impossible for its significance to be limited to the emotional impact on Maria. Read through the whole scene, and hopefully you'll see that it's far too specific for that. Also note that this is where Ange proves that she's understood witches, as well as the fact that understanding witches is essential for understanding Beatrice's game, something said over and over again in EP4.

If that's the answer, he's a liar, a cheater, and a hack. "LOL they weren't dead when I said they were dead IT'S EXACTLY THE SAME THING AS MARIA'S STUFFED ANIMAL!" is probably dumber than anything Higurashi pulled. I would just pray that isn't even close to true, because the alternative is mindboggling.

By the way, just who was it that declared the red that Sakutaro was dead? It wasn't Beatrice (directly). It wasn't Maria. It wasn't Ange. It was Rosa. And just what is the significance of that?

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by winter 923

Oh i just remembered something. Can Nanjo be killed by Kyrie or Hideyoshi? According to Battler: "Good point. That trick worked because the 18 names given didn't match up with the 18 people who actually existed,..." it is not red but he looked pretty confident.

Ah, yes, that line has always bugged me. At first, I never thought Shkanon was the culprit for the twilights after the first in EP3, but it's pretty much the only solid theory that could possibly match that quote of Battler's. At least, I haven't heard of a different one. (Well, except for Nanjo's granddaughter being on the island ^^)

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by Renall

If that's the answer, he's a liar, a cheater, and a hack. "LOL they weren't dead when I said they were dead IT'S EXACTLY THE SAME THING AS MARIA'S STUFFED ANIMAL!" is probably dumber than anything Higurashi pulled. I would just pray that isn't even close to true, because the alternative is mindboggling.

By the way, just who was it that declared the red that Sakutaro was dead? It wasn't Beatrice (directly). It wasn't Maria. It wasn't Ange. It was Rosa. And just what is the significance of that?

No, he isn't a liar. Please calm down. The point is that (only if this theory is true), in order to truly understand EP3, you have to understand that Kanon and Shannon aren't separate people. Once you understand that, if you already assume that Shkanon is true, then the answer comes easily. There is enough evidence to support Shkanon in the other games, so why is this the only place that seems to contradict it? That sounds like a puzzle to me, a puzzle that requires answering. Either there is a way to make Shkanon work with that red text, or there must be another explanation for all of the hints pointing towards Shkanon. So far, I haven't heard of an alternate explanation, though some forms of Shannontrice and Kanontrice might get close.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by winter 923

Oh i just remembered something. Can Nanjo be killed by Kyrie or Hideyoshi? According to Battler: "Good point. That trick worked because the 18 names given didn't match up with the 18 people who actually existed,..." it is not red but he looked pretty confident.

This was earlier though. The reason Battler said this was because he was using person X as a theory at the time. After Kinzo was declared dead and the count was lowered Beato brought it up again and he changed his theory about it. That final blue is what inevitably killed her before she gave her final riddle, which he responds to by saying "So it's just a supped up version of Doctor Nanjo's murder".

[UsagiTenpura]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

It isn't the meaning of "death" that changes arbitrarily, but the types of objects being counted.

One way or another it's still pretty cheap, especially in arc 3's case. Battler wanted to make certain no one faked death so she said 6 people: Kinzo, Genji, Shannon, Kanon, Gohda, and Kumasawa are dead!. If within the same sentence the word people or dead have different meanings at once, especially when Battler already thought about fake death, it's really cheap. What was he supposed to say?

One way or another if this is true, to me it's really cheap of Ryukishi and Beatrice. Shkanon is fine but deathproof Shkanon is another level of thing.

[UsagiTenpura]

Originally Posted by Renall

By the way, just who was it that declared the red that Sakutaro was dead? It wasn't Beatrice (directly). It wasn't Maria. It wasn't Ange. It was Rosa. And just what is the significance of that?

I thought the only red concerning Sakutarou's "death" was that Beatrice was unable to revive him with her magic. Guess I'm wrong.

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura

One way or another it's still pretty cheap, especially in arc 3's case. Battler wanted to make certain no one faked death so she said 6 people: Kinzo, Genji, Shannon, Kanon, Gohda, and Kumasawa are dead!. If within the same sentence the word people or dead have different meanings at once, especially when Battler already thought about fake death, is really cheap. What was he supposed to say?

One way or another if this is true, to me it's really cheap of Ryukishi and Beatrice. Shkanon is fine but deathproof Shkanon is another level of thing.

Well, Battler did say that mystery fans would call it cheap.

I disagree strongly, since there is yet another hint towards this given within EP3 itself. Both George and Jessica witness "Shannon and Kanon" after their deaths. This is a puzzle that needs to be explained. There is no point in making this a lie that Jessica and George tell, so it must be a lie that they are told. In other words, someone made them believe that Shannon and Kanon were still alive, and that means that someone was capable of matching their voices (George's eyes were closed and Jessica's were blinded, so sound was the only sense tricked).

In other words, EP3 presents us with a clear puzzle that needs to be solved: how is it that Shannon and Kanon can be revived after their supposed deaths? This is a puzzle that must be explained. It's also a hint that someone capable of faking Shannon and Kanon's voices lived on after their supposed deaths.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura

I thought the only red concerning Sakutarou's "death" was that Beatrice was unable to revive him with her magic. Guess I'm wrong.

No you're right. It was never said in red that Sakutarou died. But he believes some of the red there suggests it can be done that way.

[winter 923]

Originally Posted by Judoh

This was earlier though.

The quote i used is from Gamemaster Battler, said to Erika.
Erika said "names and numbers of people caused you a lot of trouble with Nanjo's murder in the third game."
His answer was that the names didn't match and not just "Kyrie killed him"

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura

I thought the only red concerning Sakutarou's "death" was that Beatrice was unable to revive him with her magic. Guess I'm wrong.

The red says that Beatrice was unable to revive Sakutaro with magic. In other words, Sakutaro needed reviving.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

No, he isn't a liar. Please calm down.

It's interesting how you always precede your condescending and baseless claims by telling other people to calm down.

The point is that (only if this theory is true), in order to truly understand EP3, you have to understand that Kanon and Shannon aren't separate people.

You don't know whether or not they are, and have consistently failed to convincingly demonstrate otherwise. And no, there are a dozen better ways to understand ep3 than "Shkanon is true and survives the First Twilight." Because your theory isn't Shkanon. It's some nonsense about being alive after both Shannon and Kanon are dead; Shkanon could still exist and not posit survival.

Once you understand that, if you already assume that Shkanon is true, then the answer comes easily.

...no. No it doesn't. It doesn't come because you say it does. There's no better or more complete answer when the "answer" is unintuitive deception that sniffs of stupidity and authorial lies. You can say it makes sense all you want, but something is seriously warped with a line of thinking that proclaims a needlessly complicated answer "comes easily" versus simpler, self-consistent theories about the episode.

There is enough evidence to support Shkanon in the other games, so why is this the only place that seems to contradict it?

Ep5 parlor.

That sounds like a puzzle to me, a puzzle that requires answering. Either there is a way to make Shkanon work with that red text, or there must be another explanation for all of the hints pointing towards Shkanon. So far, I haven't heard of an alternate explanation, though some forms of Shannontrice and Kanontrice might get close.

Or... they're dead, and ep3 is a game which shows what happens when they're dead. Why is that less probable an answer when it doesn't require that we believe the author is a blatant cheater?

And if you don't grasp why this is cheating, it's because you want this theory to be correct so badly that you'll believe it makes the story work even if it turns it into the new Brain Parasites, only twenty times less capable of explaining what's going on. At least Higurashi's silly explanation did explain things.

And you haven't heard any alternate explanations? Are we reading the same threads?

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by winter 923

The quote i used is from Gamemaster Battler, said to Erika.
Erika said "names and numbers of people caused you a lot of trouble with Nanjo's murder in the third game."
His answer was that the names didn't match and not just "Kyrie killed him"

Oh he never said that was the solution. He's just referencing one theory he used in the the 4th game. This inevitably ends up with him declaring everyone else is in the cousin's room. So he's just acknowledging that would be a problem for him.

[UsagiTenpura]

Then how about this.
Seeing as furniture aren't humans they don't solely belong to one person. Your example about Sakutarou is a good one since Ange was the one who revived it even tho it didn't originally belong to her. Beatrice said that Shannon was revived thanks to George's power. Maybe George did the same thing Maria did with Sakutarou and revived her as furniture. After all Ange didn't have the vessel and thought the real one was destroyed long ago. That shouldn't be a problem, they do say George has a great magical talent. Kanon was only revived as a voice within Jessica's head without a corpse which is a lower level of magic, potentially relatively easy for someone who's blind and choses to believe.

[UsagiTenpura]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

The red says that Beatrice was unable to revive Sakutaro with magic. In other words, Sakutaro needed reviving.

Lol I sorta feel bad replying to this, but actually I'd say the best reason to be unable to revive someone/thing is because they aren't dead in the first place.

Of course the game does suggest Sakutarou died, it's not like I'm doubting that.