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Old 2008-10-16, 10:32   Link #3821
Anh_Minh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yezhanquan View Post
Well, I guess my little exercise showed the limitations of labels.

Socially, I lean towards pro-choice, and I have little objections to same-sex marriages. So, I'm liberal.

Economically, while I favour free markets, I do want to see a degree of control by the government.
Doesn't that make you a typical Social Liberal?

There are labels for everything.
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Old 2008-10-16, 10:40   Link #3822
wingdarkness
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Another link that shows "Joe the Plumber" isn't even registered to vote...Good God what a plant...

http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmi....html#comments
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Old 2008-10-16, 12:34   Link #3823
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FLCL View Post
im absolutely sick to my stomach with the media's love of obama is it ludicrous, the ammount of bias is getting way past the acceptable levels, and this isnt even at established left wing publications but even on things such as yahoo. I'm a registered independent, but i think im going to vote against obama on principle, the media is practically handing this to him on a silver platter. 3 articles i've read are all portraying obama as the poor underdog and racial victim where as mccain is the attacking angry conservative...i watched the debate it wasnt so "black and white"
So you're going to vote against Obama because "the media is making it too easy on him" and/or the majority seem to prefer him to McCain? What happened to voting based on who you want as your representative?
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Old 2008-10-16, 12:41   Link #3824
wingdarkness
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FLCL View Post
im absolutely sick to my stomach with the media's love of obama is it ludicrous, the ammount of bias is getting way past the acceptable levels, and this isnt even at established left wing publications but even on things such as yahoo. I'm a registered independent, but i think im going to vote against obama on principle, the media is practically handing this to him on a silver platter. 3 articles i've read are all portraying obama as the poor underdog and racial victim where as mccain is the attacking angry conservative...i watched the debate it wasnt so "black and white"

I agree with both politicians on certain aspects, mccain on foreign policy/economy and obama with domestic policy, but this is just gross, where the media's bias is entering the fidel/stalin/hitler/che level of love its appalling.
Using your own mind to make a descision is hard isn't it?
In 2000 the media LOVED McCain over Bush, but guess what happened? Bush kicked his a$$...But again let your ignorance reign supreme and vote based on your own bias AGAINST the media instead of simply voting for who you think is the best candidate...Gotta love this nation though, because you've got the right to do something this asinine...
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Old 2008-10-16, 12:44   Link #3825
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McCain sure is one poor public debater. Not smooth, or quick witted (which doesn't mean stupid by any means). He did manage to raise most of his critical points. He missed a number of good opportunities as well. For example:

1. When Obama said he and Biden were in lock step McCain could have highlighted Biden's liberal record and used it against him.

2. McCain also failed to capitalize on the 95 percent tax cut = 40 percent welfare angle when he had the opportunity.

3. The angle to have handled Ayers would have been to talk about the Annenberg foundation and what they spent the money on and not the terrorist angle. Radical fiscal and social policy vs radical individual.

4. McCain totally missed the opportunity to point out that Obama supports an activist supreme court and that's not the role of the court. It's up to the legislative and executive branches to make law. Something that could have been educational to the public.

However, all in all not a failure. Not a victory moment, but a foundation for the next two weeks focused on "Senator Government" and his "No Pork Left Behind" policies. Joe the Plumber is a real wild card now.

Noticed a mutually toxic subject like Immigration was not raised. An anti immigration McCain would be a shoe in today, but that's not where the current Republican party is looking to go long term.

2nd Amendment didn't come up. Probably a bone to Obama from Schieffer (moderator).

I agreed somewhat with Obama's populist views on a level playing field with US trade agreements. Now, Obama would likely push for more protectionism than is wise, but it's currently hard for our companies to compete for mfg. when we have ethical and moral standards for labor and the environment, but we enter into trade agreements with countries that have business practices straight out of Upton Sinclair's "The Jungle" -- largely for the benefit of multinational tycoons and the politicians they buy.
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Old 2008-10-16, 12:48   Link #3826
wingdarkness
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Oh I forgot to mention it since my net was down last night, but congrats to CBS' Bill Schieffer for being BY FAR the best moderator this debate season, asking the best questions of this debate season, and actually MODERATING the debate...I mean he even did something called asking FOLLOW-UP QUESTIONS , and asked questions actually based on the news cycle...He pwned Leher, Ifill, and Brokaw, hands down...
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Old 2008-10-16, 12:48   Link #3827
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mg1942 View Post

I found I agreed somewhat with Obama's populist views on a level playing field with US trade agreements. Now, Obama would likely push for more protectionism than is wise, but it's currently hard for US companies to compete for mfg. when we have ethical and moral standards for labor and the environment, but we enter into trade agreements with countries that have business practices straight out of Upton Sinclair's "The Jungle" -- largely for the benefit of multinational tycoons and the politicians they buy.
a level playing field is one thing what ever that means but protectionism is only going make the recovery of the economy that much harder. Read up on the Great Depression, countries throwing up protectionist trade barriers strangle international trade and made the problem worst.
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Old 2008-10-16, 12:56   Link #3828
Shadow Kira01
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mg1942 View Post
McCain sure is one poor public debater. Not smooth, or quick witted (which doesn't mean stupid by any means).
Not really. McCain was probably too devoted to helping Joe the Plumber that he totally forgot about other important policy issues.
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Old 2008-10-16, 13:18   Link #3829
mg1942
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wingdarkness View Post
Another link that shows "Joe the Plumber" isn't even registered to vote...Good God what a plant...

http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmi....html#comments

The DailyKos screwed that up. He goes by Joe, but that's his middle name. Samuel Joseph Wurzelbacher is registered to vote.
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Old 2008-10-16, 13:18   Link #3830
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow Minato View Post
Not really. McCain was probably too devoted to helping Joe the Plumber that he totally forgot about other important policy issues.
To be fair, McCain was looking for "zinger moments", lines and details that could be published the next day making McCain look cool, confident, and in-charge. But, besides the brief pseudo-effective "I am not George Bush" line, McCain had nothing, despite his constant (floundering) attempts.

That is not to say that Obama had any zingers. In fact, as far as I can tell, he has never had a zinger, at least not since his keynote address 4 years ago (his "One America" line).
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Old 2008-10-16, 13:22   Link #3831
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Joe the plumber has been exposed. FRAUDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD

http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2...the-spotlight/


"Turns out that “Joe the Plumber,” as he became nationally known when Senator John McCain made him a theme at Wednesday night’s third and final presidential debate, may run a plumbing business but he is not a licensed plumber. His full name is Samuel J. Wurzelbacher. And he owes a bit in back taxes."


"The records, she said, showed he voted Republican in the March primary. "







James: Isn't your sig from Colbert Report?
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Old 2008-10-16, 15:38   Link #3832
GuidoHunter_Toki
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dynames/ Virtue View Post
Obama presented himself better during the debate in my opinion. McCain in the debate got really annoying by doing "faces" and "writing" when Obama made a key point..
I'm sorry, but were you completely blind to the fact that Obama was literally doing the exact same thing. Smirking almost every waking moment and doodling on his paper.
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Old 2008-10-16, 16:22   Link #3833
james0246
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GuidoHunter_Toki View Post
I'm sorry, but were you completely blind to the fact that Obama was literally doing the exact same thing. Smirking almost every waking moment and doodling on his paper.
LOL, come on, even Brit Hume of Fox News remarked that McCain looked fairly "peculiar" during much of the debate, and that Obama was a man of "remarkable self-containment" (Krauthammer could have said this second line, but Hume did agree with the sentiment). David Gergen (long time centrist who has supported both Democratic and Republican campaigns in the past) even said that McCain "...looked angry. It was an exercise in anger management up there."

Obama looked...average, for a lack of a better word. He concentrated on what McCain said, and even laughed at some of McCain more exaggerated points (Obama did not smirk, look to Cheney to see how to smirk, and nothing Obama did looked anything like Cheney's patented smirk). If you felt his smile was condescending, okay, I cannot really argue with your conception of a smile. McCain, though from my perspective, looked bewildered (with his eyebrows raised as high as they could go ), annoyed, and, with his vocal behaviour during Obama's talking points, dismissive.

In the end, even if both the facial and body expressions were similar, hell even if all of their attacks and defenses came out equal, McCain still failed to connect with the average Middle Class Independent voter, something he desperately needed to do in order to make any headway into this election. So, McCain still lost.
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Old 2008-10-16, 16:31   Link #3834
GuidoHunter_Toki
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I wasn't denying the fact that McCain wasn't looking like his usual aggravated self(even though its sometimes hard to pick what exact emotion he is trying to convey). I was just stating that Obama gave off, from what I saw, much of the same body language, but perhaps not for the same reason. Honestly I don't think anything McCain could have done would have changed much as he has seemed to pretty much stick with his usually tactics and I think its been made abundantly clear that McCain is losing this race right now.
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Old 2008-10-16, 16:37   Link #3835
james0246
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GuidoHunter_Toki View Post
I wasn't denying the fact that McCain wasn't looking like his usual angry/aggravated self(even though its sometimes hard to pick what exact emotion he is trying to convey). I was just stating that Obama gave off, from what I saw, much of the same body language.
In that case, I, more or less, agree with you (they are both, at times, guilty of facial faux pas' ). Obama can come across, at times, as if he is looking down on McCain. Whether this is due to the heigth difference, or if Obama is litterally looking down on McCain now, I am not sure.
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Old 2008-10-16, 16:38   Link #3836
wingdarkness
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GuidoHunter_Toki View Post
I'm sorry, but were you completely blind to the fact that Obama was literally doing the exact same thing. Smirking almost every waking moment and doodling on his paper.
Well yeah, he was doing "faces" and "doodling"...He just wasn't doing faces that showed curmudgeon grandpa level impatience and faces that showed a near tantrum or explosion on the brink...He wrote a few things from time to time, but McCain seemed to jot down something EVERY COUPLE OF SECONDS (His aging memory and pension for trying to create a zinger from something Obama said most likely being the reason here)...So you're right Obama made faces and doodled too, good catch ...
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Old 2008-10-16, 16:44   Link #3837
GuidoHunter_Toki
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wingdarkness View Post
Well yeah, he was doing "faces" and "doodling"...He just wasn't doing faces that showed curmudgeon grandpa level impatience and faces that showed a near tantrum or explosion on the brink...He wrote a few things from time to time, but McCain seemed to jot down something EVERY COUPLE OF SECONDS (His aging memory and pension for trying to create a zinger from something Obama said most likely being the reason here)...So you're right Obama made faces and doodled too, good catch ...
Well yes, obama's paper was actually collected after the debate and he had drawn a picture of McCain riding Palin yelling "drill baby drill!" As for McCain he attempted many time through out the debate to try and top Obamas superb drawing abilities, but all he could come up with was a few badly drawn squares and a Clementine fruit.

Last edited by GuidoHunter_Toki; 2008-10-16 at 17:12.
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Old 2008-10-16, 16:52   Link #3838
JOJOS'STAR
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I aint American but I think all this political comedy around Obama and McCain has to do with the fact Obama is black. Which doesn't suprise me at all, just makes me even more concious that we are still exactly like every ancient retard civilisations.
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Old 2008-10-16, 16:53   Link #3839
Aquillion
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yezhanquan View Post
Well, I guess my little exercise showed the limitations of labels.

Socially, I lean towards pro-choice, and I have little objections to same-sex marriages. So, I'm liberal.

Economically, while I favour free markets, I do want to see a degree of control by the government.
That sounds a lot like the utilitarian "New Democrat" positions of Bill Clinton in particular. While the position is not perfect (and a lot of "old" democrats were annoyed), the Clinton administration is generally credited by economists for caring a lot more about the economy than about economic ideology.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JOJOS'STAR View Post
I aint American but I think all this political comedy around Obama and McCain has to do with the fact Obama is black. Which doesn't suprise me at all, just makes me even more concious that we are still exactly like every ancient retard civilisations.
Obama is BLACK?!

McCain was right -- Obama was hiding something!
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Old 2008-10-16, 18:31   Link #3840
4Tran
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yezhanquan View Post
Well, I guess my little exercise showed the limitations of labels.

Socially, I lean towards pro-choice, and I have little objections to same-sex marriages. So, I'm liberal.

Economically, while I favour free markets, I do want to see a degree of control by the government.
Precisely. There's a lot of push for pigeon-holing people into particular political positions, but that often fails to capture the whole picture. This is exascerbated by the fact that there are single-issue voters out there, but most people have a much more nuanced view towards things.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mg1942 View Post
However, all in all not a failure. Not a victory moment, but a foundation for the next two weeks focused on "Senator Government" and his "No Pork Left Behind" policies. Joe the Plumber is a real wild card now.
Looking at the snap polls, it's quite clear that this kind of thing only resonates with people who were going to vote McCain-Palin to begin with. It's awfully hard for a mere $18 billion of pork or a little taxation to matter when people are worried about losing their jobs or their homes, and pundits are talking in terms of hundreds of billions to tens of trillions of dollars of financial problems. McCain's unfortunate focus on little matters is really hurting him at this point. Never mind that the elimination of all pork is neither possible nor particularly desirable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mg1942 View Post
I agreed somewhat with Obama's populist views on a level playing field with US trade agreements. Now, Obama would likely push for more protectionism than is wise, but it's currently hard for our companies to compete for mfg. when we have ethical and moral standards for labor and the environment, but we enter into trade agreements with countries that have business practices straight out of Upton Sinclair's "The Jungle" -- largely for the benefit of multinational tycoons and the politicians they buy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
a level playing field is one thing what ever that means but protectionism is only going make the recovery of the economy that much harder. Read up on the Great Depression, countries throwing up protectionist trade barriers strangle international trade and made the problem worst.
The problem here is that economic globalization has had a negative impact on the American economy. In essence, a lot of American companies have shifted their production and support facilities overseas to create short-term benefits, and it's threatening the U.S.' long-term financial viability. Up to now, the over-inflated housing bubble has managed to disguise a lot of these problems, but the collapse of that sector is showing everyone exactly how much trouble the system has been in. Without some sort of drastic changes to counter and reverse this trend, the U.S. is looking ever more likely to be eclipsed by the rest of the world's powers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GuidoHunter_Toki View Post
I'm sorry, but were you completely blind to the fact that Obama was literally doing the exact same thing. Smirking almost every waking moment and doodling on his paper.
All snap polls seem to indicate that most voters really don't feel the same way about Obama. Admittedly, snap polls might be very inaccurate, but their results have been substantiated by the follow up polls so far this election. Then again, this is a weird election season where people who have admitted to hating Obama are still saying that they're going to vote for him...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JOJOS'STAR View Post
I aint American but I think all this political comedy around Obama and McCain has to do with the fact Obama is black. Which doesn't suprise me at all, just makes me even more concious that we are still exactly like every ancient retard civilisations.
Actually, all American presidential elections have been like this for at least the last few cycles. Obama being black adds a little more drama to the mix, but it's been a lot less influential than you'd imagine.
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