2010-02-28, 15:37 | Link #5901 | |
Banned
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Location: Hamburg
Age: 54
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Only the vital key points, or this is going to become completely unreadable.
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Sorry, where I come from, people who DO something deserve more praise than people who TALK about something, and then don't do it. Good deeds >> Good intentions. This is a recurring theme with her anyway. See the next morphing example: Chapter 260, page 9ff: "It was fine... if you never called out my name again." "If someone had given you the happiness I couldn't give you." "I was fine... if you never called out my name again." "If you were happy... I was fine..." "I was..." "I was..." "I want to see you..." "I want to see you... Hayate" "Call out my name once more..." "Call out my name..." "HAYATEEEE!!!!" In your world, you gave Athena high praise for her big restraint. In my world, I'm much less enthusiastic, because in the end, she only TALKED about it, and eventually changed her mind to the solution which benefited herself. Isn't that exactly the "refreshing honesty" which you talked about earlier, and which several people seemed to approve of? This is the huge qualitative difference I see between Hina and Athena, and why I judge both of them very differently. Hina's thoughts and actions towards Hayate (and others) are fundamentally consistent. She makes up her mind what is the "right" thing to do, and does it, usually without any kind of reward. Athena also has kind thoughts and intentions, but when things finally do happen, they often enough achieve the opposite of what she originally intended. When it's something selfless, she talks about it, and almost certainly genuinely feels like it, but ultimately doesn't follow through. Her longing for Hayate makes her change her mind in the end. Which at the moment seems to reward her with Hayate's affection. On close reflection, I believe that in the end, this might be the real root of my beef with Athena. I want Hina - and after her sacrifice, Nagi - to be adequately rewarded for their deeds. They deserve better than this. In comparison, Athena has not yet matched up. Instead, I feel that Hata is trying hard to make me change my mind by piling buckets of "aww come on and love poor her, she is soooooo pitiful" over her, but merely being a (mostly self-inflicted) damsel in distress is not something I find admirable per se. I assume that Athena will have ample opportunity to walk the walk in the future, now that she's free of coercion. I'll reserve final judgment on her until I've seen her reaction towards her saviors, and how she will fit in. But so far, I definitely don't see her on the level of Hina, Nagi, or Ayumu and the likes. |
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2010-02-28, 15:45 | Link #5902 |
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Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: France
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I do not think such a topic deserve a quarrel.
Nagi, Hinagiku and A-Tan are all very nice and cute girls, but all of them are far from beeing plain, shy girls (even if they, especially Nagi and Hina, got their shy sides). Nevertheless, they are self-absorbed. Nagi does not hesitate to put Hayate (and everybody except Maria) in trouble if it might be funny. Of course, she does not want to put anybody in dangerous situation, but she is still a little girl, without any knowing about the real world, so ... She is quite egoistic too, just because she is a spoiled and very rich heir. Hinagiku is very pround of herself and value higly people opinion. Moreover, she does not like to lose. That is why she is very reluctant to confess to Hayate. Of course, she suffered as a child a trauma (her parents abandoned her, not very different from Nagi and A-Tan). On the other side, she will always try to help Hayate, whatever is her own interest. A-Tan is on a different situation because she has got nobody to rely on (except a stupid snake). That is why, Hayate is everything for her and in the current chapter, we can see she was wishing for death because he left. Nevertheless, she always puts Hayate's happiness above her own happiness. Nagi has Maria and some very good friends (Isumi, Sakuya, ...). Hinagiku is in the same situation and has also some relatives. A-Tan is so lonely ... That is the reason I assume she is the one who loves Hayate the most. I am quite afraid it is stronger than love, and probably a bit insane. In fact, A-Tan and Hayate are very close characters because both of them are cursed. Even if we still do not understand fully what kind of curses it is. I am not going to give a definition of atruism because it is a difficult topic, but I guess the most atruist characters are Hayate's Bro, Isumi and Hayate himself. The three girls are maidens in love, that means they CANNOT be 100% atruist as soon as her beloved guy is involved. And whatever, we should remember one thing: Hayate loves A-tan, and not the other girls. |
2010-02-28, 16:07 | Link #5903 | ||
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There was no "solution" she changed to. There was no indication she stopped the process of giving her life. There was only regret and pain over not being able to reach Hayate in the way that, deep down, she had always wanted. If Hina was in the same situation, and crying over her regrets, wishing she had taken the chances she had been given to reach Hayate the way she had always wanted...you don't think you would be affected? You'd sit there and call that "changing her mind" and change your perception on Hina's altruistic tendencies? Somehow I strongly doubt that. Hina herself said, "if you're not a little bit selfish, you'll never be happy."
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2010-02-28, 16:30 | Link #5905 |
dat apple
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: I'm aliens
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Well, you guys can have your fun, but personally I'm going to have to say "tl;dr" and skip it. Especially since a certain side's arguments still look half-delusional to me, but I'll keep that to myself.
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2010-02-28, 16:37 | Link #5906 |
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Location: France
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Well, I too likes this topic but I feel people are going too serious about it.
Except Gilbert and Mikado, all the characters are nice and likeable. And I really appreciate Hinagiku and the other girls, but A-tan is currently my favorite. Nevertheless, HnG is a comedy even if with this new arc, it turns to be more tragical. |
2010-02-28, 16:47 | Link #5907 |
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Join Date: Feb 2010
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I read somewhere that Hata had the appearance of Athena planned since the beginning of the manga.
http://www.onemanga.com/Hayate_the_C...utler/1/05-06/ The link above is from the first chapter of the manga. Do you notice Athena's castle at the background? |
2010-02-28, 16:55 | Link #5908 | |
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2010-02-28, 16:58 | Link #5909 | ||||
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2010-02-28, 16:59 | Link #5910 | |
Not Enough Sleep
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Location: R'lyeh
Age: 48
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2010-02-28, 17:20 | Link #5911 | |||||||
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I quoted the relevant chapter, and it's visible for everybody how her thoughts wandered, stopped, and reversed track (she contradicts what she said seconds before). Look at yourself in the mirror and ask yourself if you REALLY believe that this reversal was part of her "giving her life" spell (an interpretation I reject, and even stipulating that this was truly what Athena did, it seemed to have had no effect in the first place). I have difficulties buying that and smell wishful thinking instead. Quote:
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2010-02-28, 17:24 | Link #5912 | |
Banned
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Aaah, make-believe is such a powerful thing ^_^; Well, I'll just interpret this as commenting Athena's actions AFTERWARDS... |
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2010-02-28, 17:24 | Link #5913 | |
*ignoring*
Join Date: Aug 2009
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Athena already proved to "walk the walk" when she decided to stay away from Hayate thinking about his happiness after searching for him for 10 years, and this "walk" was much harder than anything Hina could ever do. Personally, I don't think Hina has what it takes to do what Athena has done unless she learned more from Ayumu in addition to stop running away from her problems.
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Last edited by zodanhko; 2010-02-28 at 17:35. |
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2010-02-28, 17:31 | Link #5914 | |
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Didn't Hina do that 2 chapters ago? When she decided to fly to where he was to help him? When she got past her fear of hight to break the Fake Jewel? When she walked out of the palace so he can get his time with Athena? I mean Hina might not be my favorite, but she did do a lot that manages to make me respect her. All of these things can't be just hand waved as nothing much because Athena suffered more and supposedly ''walked harder'' whatever that means. And ''running away''? From what exactly?
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2010-02-28, 17:39 | Link #5915 |
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Location: France
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Situation was very different.
A-tan choose to stay away from Hayate while she was waiting to be reunite with him for 10 years. Hina choose to advice Hayate to go for A-tan (I highly respect her for that sacrifice) but she will still be around at school, and whoever knows, she might have some other opportunity? Whatever, Hinagiku is my second favorite character. Third are Isumi and Nagi. By the way, I was wondering what is the true goal of HnG. I assume it is not only a romance but a real scenario. What about the power of Royalty? I do not think Hayate, Nagi or even A-Tan are still interesting in that. Nevertheless, IMO, the only reason A-Tan could have been after it is because it can ressurect dead people (her parents). I wonder why Nagi's mother died while having the power of Royalty. Or she could have seal it? or destruct it? Maybe she died because of that? I do no remember who said the final boss is Mikado Sanzenin, but I agree with him. |
2010-02-28, 17:43 | Link #5916 | |
*ignoring*
Join Date: Aug 2009
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Considering the amount of time she had for a confession and still failed it every single time. |
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2010-02-28, 17:44 | Link #5917 | |||
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Last edited by Arabesque; 2010-02-28 at 17:54. Reason: Just one thing before turning off |
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2010-02-28, 17:52 | Link #5918 |
*ignoring*
Join Date: Aug 2009
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It somewhat amused me when considering Hina made a sacrifice when trying to save a person she called a friend.
I hardly considered saving Athena a sacrifice since Hina realized her chance of getting through Hayate is low. And Hina hasn't really lost anything before/after saving Athena since Hayate has no feelings for her in the first place. It did reduce her chance of being with him, but that's what Ayumu has done all the time for Hina. They are friends silly. The point is she didn't know she was going to fly... They are different characters with different level of affections toward Hayate due different experienced they had and, of course, their level of maturity in relationship. And in this regard, Hina couldn't possibly be at Athena's level, and I can't see how she can make the decision Athena did. Last edited by zodanhko; 2010-02-28 at 18:06. |
2010-02-28, 18:30 | Link #5919 | |
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To put it another way, this arc has been about Athena trying very hard to be strong on her own, to tell herself that she can be fine as long as Hayate is happy. I believe her when she says that she can be fine with Hayate being happy, but then we see that simple wish--for herself to find happiness with Hayate. To you, that can be seen as selfishness, but to me, I see it as honesty. The bravery she showed this arc was a different kind of bravery. It was the bravery to ask for help. When you're trapped in a dark loneliness, perhaps you start trying to rationalize it to yourself. Perhaps you start to think that loneliness is its own form of strength, so when happiness comes and reaches towards you, you draw back. Athena had a lot of options this arc. She could have told Hayate what was happening and asked for the help of him and his friends, for one. Instead, she tried to make the decision to get involved for him by brutally shoving him away. That's one of her flaws. It's not a good thing. Her choices were bad. I admit all of those things about Athena. Her calling out to him wasn't a simple "I love you", it was an answer to his "I'll save you!" She was calling him, telling him "please save me!" It was her making a choice to believe and trust in someone beyond herself. It was her making a choice to say "this isn't what I want, I'm in over my head, please help me because I can't help myself." Those are the words she needed to say to Hayate ten years ago, that got lost in her pride and pain. I think maybe you got a little lost in the image Athena wants to project to the world. Someone calm and in control at all times. When I look at her, I see that six year old, trying to find the words she's never had to voice, trying to tell Hayate how she feels when it's already too late and she's driven him away. And then the tears come, then what she needed to say comes out...when it's already too late. In a lot of respects, she's still that lonely little girl who is mature beyond her years in so many ways that it's easy to overlook how clumsy and afraid she can be on the inside. Even Hina needs the support of her friends and loved ones to be strong. What would she have done without Ayumu by her side, to make her feel better about this heartbreak? What would she have done without Hayate's kindness and warmth, helping her open up and be more honest with herself? Isn't Athena more to be pitied for having none of those advantages, than to be hated because she doesn't know how to use them because she only had them for the briefest of times?
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2010-02-28, 23:59 | Link #5920 | |
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This is basically why I'm saying that, in my opinion, Hina is not an altruist. Hina wants to see other people being happy, but at the same time, she doesn't want to let go of her own happiness. Personally, I think I wouldn't like Hina as much as I do, if she was an actual altruist.
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