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Old 2013-01-24, 20:19   Link #11801
Lupus753
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Join Date: Apr 2012
@Silvercover: Seeing a girl perform skillful feats and defeat others with mental brawn (seriously, I'm not person to use that phrase) is exciting. I mean, a thrill similar to looking at pornography. Besides, with a protag that inhuman, I just want to see where it all leads.

I dislike her general attitude (kinda like holier-than-thou) and the thrill does not work well in the long run. Really, I'm bad at describing my feelings on things. Though, I think Kujira is my fav character overall.

@Kaisos: Torai? Ohhhh, yeah. You just reminded me of someone I completely forgot the existence of. I wonder if she'll come back.
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Old 2013-01-24, 20:24   Link #11802
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Originally Posted by Lupus753 View Post
Really, I'm bad at describing my feelings on things
Haha, same here.
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Old 2013-01-24, 20:54   Link #11803
silver001
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We should all agree to disagree.

The people that hate medaka think they are better than the people that like medaka that is fine, the reverse (if it actually exist on this forum) is also fine. Personally, medaka is a like on Mondays and hate on Tuesdays kind of gal for me.

Some people might not like the ending of the manga to be a happy ending, personally I do and it is expected because a sad ending usually destroys the purpose of the manga in the first place which is the see the hero win.
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Old 2013-01-24, 21:00   Link #11804
Endscape
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Originally Posted by Wolfenstein View Post
However, even though people act as if it's natural to talk shit about Medaka, I'm just saying that I'm sure it's no objective affirmation that other people with different tastes, that do like Medaka, are below them in some way.

Even then, though, people will always think of their own opinions as better. That's just natural and inescapable. I do think that the manga would've been far better without Medaka, but I realize that's just the taste of one group.
If you really think that, then my compliments and respect to you.

Quote:
Well, like I said, I think it's perfectly natural, and in-fact preferable to never restrict either stuff like that. From both sides

Of course, as long as it's talking about the manga
.
Well, I wish the spontaneous Medaka hate would end but people have freedom
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Thanks! I really appreciate that.
So do I
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Except that Medaka is going to survive due to plot bullshit.
Just like Kumagawa, yet no one bitched about that, hence double standard.

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She's still a bitch to Zenkichi, she's still ridiculously self-sacrificing, she's still overpowering everyone no matter how unjustifiable it is that she does so, she's still a bitch to Zenkichi... yeah, not much has really changed.
Quite a shallow analysis, which proves my point.
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Originally Posted by Wolfenstein View Post
And I have to question how she was not even a little bit shaken by Hato's brutal reality speech. What? All that awesome talk about your mother's existance reflecting on your's didn't phase you? Didn't even shift your resolve a little bit? I find that hard to believe, especially when you're talking to the dead.
Except she was affected by it, as we clearly see her thinking about her loss to Zenkichi. The reason she wasn't more affected was that she's already been over this. The difference now is thst she's grown enough to start to think of hsving an opinion on the matter.

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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
At least she's not as superfluous as Torai!
Seriously why does that character even exist
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Originally Posted by Wolfenstein View Post
Torai's only reason for existing was to get told. Basically, to try and make Medaka look better in the eyes of the reader.

Needless to say it had the opposite effect on me, due to how blatently obvious it was.
And here I was thinking she was there to illustrate just how Medaka changed and how she stayed the same. But what do I know, since I'm just a Medaka fan, amirite?
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Last edited by Endscape; 2013-01-24 at 21:10.
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Old 2013-01-24, 21:00   Link #11805
novalysis
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Originally Posted by Wolfenstein View Post
And I have to question how she was not even a little bit shaken by Hato's brutal reality speech. What? All that awesome talk about your mother's existance reflecting on your's didn't phase you? Didn't even shift your resolve a little bit? I find that hard to believe, especially when you're talking to the dead.
Isn't this a variant of the Shounen trope, "I believe in my own principles"? I think Medaka is simply telling Hato that she's not being benevolent as an end, but as a means of becoming human. Nor is Benevolence in itself her pursuit, but rather, a purpose.

In a more whiny adolescent way, it's a more coherent and polite way of telling her mother " you don't understand (why I chose this course of action)"


Quote:
Which is another thing I would like to be followed on. The parallels between Zenkichi and the Doctor.
I suspect that such a thing will push Medaka Box into Seinen territory. I always think that the Medaka Box Universe could easily be used to criticize and comment on Seinen tropes in the same Meta fashion that Medaka Box does for Shounen.

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Yeah, I really loved those. Especially everything related to Devil Style. The concept of a fate-free world was sooooo appealing.
Personally, I don't think Nisio has a clue how this is going to work, since the fates of the world and indeed it's characters are in the hands of the author. If the author has planned out future arcs, surely then, from a Meta perspective, Medaka Box is not a Fate Free world.

Infact, the only way to write a Fate Free world from a Meta perspective is basically to refrain from planning ahead, but rather, writing spontaneously. Perhaps that's why Nisio's Post 140 chapters are so weak? Nisio might literally be writing them on the fly, while the previous arcs might have had more thought and planning put into them.

Ironically, Devil Style makes both Downer and Happy Endings equally possible, but I wonder whether Medaka's Box ending will criticize both poles of the spectrum, and even the Bittersweet ending, somehow.
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Old 2013-01-24, 21:14   Link #11806
Lupus753
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I'm very disappointed that Medaka meeting her mother (the one that died right when Medaka was born) did not seem to impact her all that much. "Mother? ...Okay, just checking" and then right on her way as if none of this meeting or what her mom said mattered. Maybe it doesn't, I don't know.
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Old 2013-01-24, 21:57   Link #11807
Wolfenstein
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Originally Posted by Endscape View Post
If you really think that, then my compliments and respect to you.
Thanks.

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Originally Posted by Endscape View Post
Well, I wish the spontaneous Medaka hate would end but people have freedom
They most certainly do.

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Originally Posted by Endscape View Post
Except she was affected by it, as we clearly see her thinking about her loss to Zenkichi. The reason she wasn't more affected was that she's already been over this. The difference now is thst she's grown enough to start to think of hsving an opinion on the matter.
I don't understand what you mean.

How has "She been over this?" Hato's basically telling her to stop being a Sue and start being human.

Spoiler:


...and she responds by going even more Mary Sue.

And even worse, the worst part of her persona, her abject self-sacrificing love for all people, is still there by her own admittance. Not saying one cannot like that, but it's not a characteristic everyone is attracted to due to the Sueness of it.

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Originally Posted by Endscape View Post
And here I was thinking she was there to illustrate just how Medaka changed and how she stayed the same.
That's what I said.

The character's just there to elevate Medaka, to talk to Medaka and to have Medaka win some kind of argument(that I still don't care about to this day). It has no purpose of it's own.

I really hate when writers create characters like that, actually.

Quote:
Originally Posted by novalysis
Isn't this a variant of the Shounen trope, "I believe in my own principles"?
It might be? Then again, It may just be because Hato's principle's are much more understandable and relatable. Medaka dosen't really have much formed at all right now other than loving all her friends and life alot. Which is so booooring.

I mean, compare this to Zenkichi. A character I enjoy.

He actually agrees and understands what the Professor was talking about when he was babbling about Synthetic shit(or maybe I could just see the Prof's thinking, eh, sue me!).
And he's not stopping the Proff because he disagrees with him, but because he wants to be with his friend, who the professor wants.

Feels more human and relatable to me. Just an example.

Quote:
Originally Posted by novalysis
I think Medaka is simply telling Hato that she's not being benevolent as an end, but as a means of becoming human. Nor is Benevolence in itself her pursuit, but rather, a purpose.
I literally don't get what you mean. Sorry, it's probably me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by novalysis
In a more whiny adolescent way, it's a more coherent and polite way of telling her mother " you don't understand (why I chose this course of action)"
Somewhat, yes.

The problem is; neither does the reader! Because we can't really relate to Medaka emotionally, we can't be invested in her decision, or understand it.

Granted, that's just the group who dislikes her character.

Quote:
Originally Posted by novalysis
I suspect that such a thing will push Medaka Box into Seinen territory. I always think that the Medaka Box Universe could easily be used to criticize and comment on Seinen tropes in the same Meta fashion that Medaka Box does for Shounen.
Good.

Let's put some excitement back in this manga, eh Nishio!

Quote:
Originally Posted by novalysis
Personally, I don't think Nisio has a clue how this is going to work, since the fates of the world and indeed it's characters are in the hands of the author. If the author has planned out future arcs, surely then, from a Meta perspective, Medaka Box is not a Fate Free world.
Well, it's fate free in the context inside the story. I don't think there's any other way.

Realistically, Nishio wouldn't risk writting on instinct, I suppose?

Maybe?

Quote:
Originally Posted by novalysis
Infact, the only way to write a Fate Free world from a Meta perspective is basically to refrain from planning ahead, but rather, writing spontaneously. Perhaps that's why Nisio's Post 140 chapters are so weak? Nisio might literally be writing them on the fly, while the previous arcs might have had more thought and planning put into them.
Hmm.

Well, I think it's an interesting analysis, if anything.

Thinking about it, it does make sense. If Nishio really gave-up all planning, it makes sense that the manga seems to be going back to the unplanned, regular shounen stuff, and why Medaka still feels the same. If the dude is just writting on instinct.

It's a fitting theory, but I doubt it's true.

Quote:
Originally Posted by novalysis
Ironically, Devil Style makes both Downer and Happy Endings equally possible, but I wonder whether Medaka's Box ending will criticize both poles of the spectrum, and even the Bittersweet ending, somehow.
I doubt it, but we'll see.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lupus
'm very disappointed that Medaka meeting her mother (the one that died right when Medaka was born) did not seem to impact her all that much. "Mother? ...Okay, just checking" and then right on her way as if none of this meeting or what her mom said mattered. Maybe it doesn't, I don't know.
Wow. You think surprisingly like me. Thanks for saying something I was tryin to say.

You know, in a way, I wanted to have a Medaka Box arc where Zenkichi met his father like this. He's never even been mentioned, I'd have liked to have seen him someday.
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Old 2013-01-24, 22:27   Link #11808
Endscape
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Originally Posted by Wolfenstein View Post
I don't understand what you mean.

How has "She been over this?" Hato's basically telling her to stop being a Sue and start being human.
She's been over this means exatly what it sounds like. Zenkichi already dealt with that.

Quote:
Spoiler:


...and she responds by going even more Mary Sue

And even worse, the worst part of her persona, her abject self-sacrificing love for all people, is still there by her own admittance. Not saying one cannot like that, but it's not a characteristic everyone is attracted to due to the Sueness of it.
Except that isn't what happened. At all. True, she still loves people as much as ever, but instead of that leading to her wanting to save everyone because it is her purpose in life, she's saving them simply because she loves them. Unlike before, this doesn't tell her anything about the world, but as long she loves those people, thst doesn't matter.

Quote:
That's what I said.

The character's just there to elevate Medaka, to talk to Medaka and to have Medaka win some kind of argument(that I still don't care about to this day). It has no purpose of it's own.

I really hate when writers create characters like that, actually
.

Except you're viewing it through your bias against Medaka. She isn't there to make Medaka look better, but to pose a question to the reader about the new Medaka.
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Old 2013-01-24, 23:05   Link #11809
Qilin
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Well, initial perception easily labels Medaka as a Mary Sue type of character. However, her Sue-ness in this case is justified and deconstructed pretty well over the course of the series, so it comes across as perfectly acceptable. But then if someone is more concerned with the superficial attributes of the Mary Sue archetype, then I guess some hatred is understandable.

Also, it's good to note that Nisio loves writing characters at the far extremes of human ideals just so he can pick them apart systematically.
Quote:
Originally Posted by novalysis View Post
Infact, the only way to write a Fate Free world from a Meta perspective is basically to refrain from planning ahead, but rather, writing spontaneously. Perhaps that's why Nisio's Post 140 chapters are so weak? Nisio might literally be writing them on the fly, while the previous arcs might have had more thought and planning put into them.
I don't think calling it a fate-free world is quite right. A better way of putting it would be that the world of Medaka Box should be pretty much free of the established conventions of genre or writing, especially given that this is a work that all but outright admits its own fictional nature.
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Old 2013-01-25, 00:11   Link #11810
KLGChaos
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Someone on Batoto came up with this theory about Iihiko:


Ok, first, let's start with Mr. Fresh. Actually, this is all about Mr. Fresh. At first, he looks to be this overblown, ridiculously powered thing that is just too crazy even for this manga, and that's the point. Because his real identity is...Shonen Jump. Specifically, the system behind it and what that represents. Mr. Fresh is the classic shonen hero, the classic greek heroes, and a whole bunch of other old and archaic things all mixed into one. You know why he's stomping everyone while saying fresh all the time? It's because he's that system of recycled, safe options Shonen Jump keeps pouring out. If you aren't a hard core battle crazy maniac, you aren't anything to him. You know why Anshin'in died? Because she's the closest thing we got to an Author Avatar in that story, and she was slayed by something old and unchanging. Ergo, the Author's decisions are being cut down by Shonen Jump's unyielding and cruel policies, of which that keeps crippling the manga (i.e. Medaka herself). And you can't even talk to them, else they get angry and just stomp on you. Furthermore, Medaka dying? That's just more proof that this system is trying to kill out anything unique in the industry of heroes. Done.



Interesting theory to say the least. My personal feelings towards Medaka Box as a whole is that it's always been a mediocre series. Nishio accels at writing snappy back and forth dialogue, but manga, especially Shounen Jump, isn't really the greatest medium for that, so I feel this series has been stunted in a way. I'm sure WSJs policies have something to do with that.
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Old 2013-01-25, 00:30   Link #11811
Lupus753
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Wow. That sure beats the theory that Iihiko is nostalgia. These old shows cannot be touched by newer ones, even if the old ones are boring and should be beaten, because older fans and people will swear up and down that they are superior. Like how there are still those who insist that Transformers: Generation One is vastly better than recent shows and toylines, despite an abundance of art and technical errors, silly plots, and lacking the advantages of modern day toy construction.

Although, given your talk on Shonen Jump's policies, they may not be so different. Not that it matters much, because it just seems like looking far too deep into something.
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Old 2013-01-25, 01:01   Link #11812
Guernsey
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I am not sure about Shonen Jump's policies but I really understand that Iihiko is old school. Come to think of it, a large majority of the heroes back in the day are somewhat overpowered especially JoJo's Giorno Giovanni and his Gold Experience Requiem stand.
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Old 2013-01-25, 01:07   Link #11813
Lupus753
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I don't think you should count powers that occurred three chapters before the character's role ended.
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Old 2013-01-25, 03:36   Link #11814
Tyabann
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Originally Posted by Qilin View Post
Also, it's good to note that Nisio loves writing characters at the far extremes of human ideals just so he can pick them apart systematically.
I feel that he often fails at this, though.
To be honest, Medaka is about as believable of a "monster" as Tsubasa Hanekawa is (which is to say not at all). The difference between the two is that while Hanekawa's unerring perfection is genuinely disturbing (if not as much so as Nisio thinks it is, her tendency to throw herself into dangerous situations without a second thought for her own or anyone else's safety due to her inability to understand the value of human life is far more disturbing but that's barely even addressed), Medaka's perfection just comes off as... annoying and rather forced.
This is an old observation, but her self-righteousness, in combination with how the manga twists itself to always make her actions correct, to always make her win, (even if she technically loses!) is what makes her unlikeable compared to Nisio's other extreme characters.
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Old 2013-01-25, 04:37   Link #11815
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I never expected (or wanted) Medaka to stay dead permanently, but it's incredibly disappointing to have her back already after such a well-depicted death scene in the previous chapter.
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Old 2013-01-25, 06:54   Link #11816
Sol Falling
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It is a bit fast, but I guess it's fine. At least with the current method, which has Medaka barely hanging onto life with her heart not even beating, there remains a heightened tension that beating Iihiko might still not be possible. If Medaka had received a full revival by someone else at a later point in the story, at that point I'd say I would probably assume Iihiko's total loss and Medaka's certain victory.


As an (power level-wise) outright monstrous shounen protagonist stereotype, there are times when you just want to see Medaka trash everything and spread carnage as that precise monster. The way that Riroland draws half-dead, beaten-up people is sheer beauty, after all. As far as shounen escapist fantasies go, raw destructive power is one of the most entertaining and honest ones. I admit, I love seeing Medaka getting beaten up, being pushed to her limit, and finally calling out the beast within her. Now that she's namedropped her inner-darkness again, we may finally see her manifestation as the Black God of Destruction.

The thing about "humanity", of course, is that it is perfectly possible for humans to become "inhuman". It is simply an effect of being pushed out of normal human boundaries. For people trying desperately to become "human" and integrate naturally into normal human life and society, such "inhumanity" is their natural state. I thus feel that they are most human and "relatable" when they breakdown and fall back into it.

The Medaka who selfishly resorts to her unfair, inhuman power, to forcefully make other people go her way, is extremely human to me. Stripped of all pretences, she understands one of the core tenets of reality: you've got just this one life, in this universe which doesn't really care for you nor anybody. If that is the case, then what is there to do except to chase after power, and do whatever you want with it?

Medaka talks about "loving people" right now, but that's just something shallow--a motivation she might grow out of or change someday. The real, core thing to get at right now, however, is simply that she is going to fight; against her mother's opinions, against people's concerns for her, against an indestructible enemy--and she is going to solely do so, with no justification, on the basis of nothing except her god-given powers. In the end, Medaka's victories are nothing but the simple act of brutal, unjust, self-asserting will. However, to the very end, that is the natural order.

If Zenkichi's acceptance of his natural, insignificant life as a non-main character can be called the Buddha's enlightenment, then Medaka's vivid life force, her unstoppable strength of assertion can be called Nietzsche's will to power. If a person understands the desperation of their life being meaningless, then on some deep inner level, pride will let the latter become their natural state.

(Who is Iihiko, though? He is simply the reader. It is perfectly natural for Medaka to be struggling against him, just as her life and experiences struggle against you).
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Old 2013-01-25, 08:45   Link #11817
Qilin
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
I feel that he often fails at this, though.
To be honest, Medaka is about as believable of a "monster" as Tsubasa Hanekawa is (which is to say not at all). The difference between the two is that while Hanekawa's unerring perfection is genuinely disturbing (if not as much so as Nisio thinks it is, her tendency to throw herself into dangerous situations without a second thought for her own or anyone else's safety due to her inability to understand the value of human life is far more disturbing but that's barely even addressed), Medaka's perfection just comes off as... annoying and rather forced.
Heh. Nisio isn't exactly known for coming up with believable characters to begin with. In an case, I'm pretty sure that he was trying to do different things for each of their characters. Tsubasa was intentionally meant to be an unsettling as an almost entirely amoral character with only an internal set of rules to guide her actions. Medaka, on the other hand, seemed to me a deconstruction of the ideal of perfection. The election arc served this purpose nicely. As to where this arc falls in, this then serves as a journey for self-discovery for Medaka, to find a new purpose or meaning to her existence right after it was stripped away from her. In a sense, this is Medaka's journey to become human. The reason itself matters not; she is how she is, but as long as she can find some justification for her actions, she can keep living on as a human being.

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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
This is an old observation, but her self-righteousness, in combination with how the manga twists itself to always make her actions correct, to always make her win, (even if she technically loses!) is what makes her unlikeable compared to Nisio's other extreme characters.
I tend to see her Sue-ness as a character trait more than anything else. She's meant to ridiculously overpowered. She's meant to be so self-righteous to the point of being insufferable, as her mother once was. In a way, I guess she was meant to be unlikable. But what matters to me is how she justifies and acknowledges that nature to herself.
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Old 2013-01-25, 12:47   Link #11818
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She's been over this means exatly what it sounds like. Zenkichi already dealt with that.
The two situations seem hardly comparable as equals. Zenkichi and Hato are talking about her Mary Sueness, but both are talking about different aspects of it.

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Originally Posted by Endscape View Post
True, she still loves people as much as ever, but instead of that leading to her wanting to save everyone because it is her purpose in life, she's saving them simply because she loves them. Unlike before, this doesn't tell her anything about the world, but as long she loves those people, thst doesn't matter.
But that hasn't dealt with the root of the problem.

Her unconditional love for all her friends is one of the most generic, simplistic and predictable Shounen traits I can think of. Those attributes pass on to the character and it loses some uniqueness. I could see Medaka going this far for any of her known friends, and she didn't even like Shiranui, or is even her friend to begin with, she wants to become friends with her. Sounds exaggerated and in-human. Mary Sueish.

I mean, I could see Zenkichi going this far for Shiranui, because he actually does love her. He spent years developing that friendship every day. Losing her is like losing a part of himself. That's relatable.

But Medaka's reasons are hardly enjoyable(for me).

Not saying that other people aren't allowed to like this trait, but it's something that turns off several readers like me, or Kaisos, or KLG.

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Originally Posted by Endscape View Post
Except you're viewing it through your bias against Medaka. She isn't there to make Medaka look better, but to pose a question to the reader about the new Medaka.
Forgive me, but what's the difference? Likewise, you're viewing it through your own bias, so as to say that Torai being created solely for Medaka's sake as a good thing.
Torai, right now, is nothing but a superfluous character, with no meaning to her, other than she was there to lose an argument against Medaka.

You say she was posing a question to the reader about Medaka? Indeed, she was. But that's simply a less-blunt and more delicate way of saying what I'm saying.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KLG
Someone on Batoto came up with this theory about Iihiko
Interesting.

Though, I sincerely doubt Nishio thought of that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos
I feel that he often fails at this, though.
To be honest, Medaka is about as believable of a "monster" as Tsubasa Hanekawa is (which is to say not at all). The difference between the two is that while Hanekawa's unerring perfection is genuinely disturbing (if not as much so as Nisio thinks it is, her tendency to throw herself into dangerous situations without a second thought for her own or anyone else's safety due to her inability to understand the value of human life is far more disturbing but that's barely even addressed), Medaka's perfection just comes off as... annoying and rather forced.
This is an old observation, but her self-righteousness, in combination with how the manga twists itself to always make her actions correct, to always make her win, (even if she technically loses!) is what makes her unlikeable compared to Nisio's other extreme characters.
Bravo, Sir.

Took the words right out of my mouth.
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Old 2013-01-25, 13:16   Link #11819
Tyabann
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Originally Posted by Qilin View Post
In a way, I guess she was meant to be unlikable.
Before recent developments I wouldn't have questioned that statement, but we are clearly supposed to be cheering for her at this point, even though she remains just as unlikeable. It's hard to read.
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Old 2013-01-25, 13:53   Link #11820
Wolfenstein
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Before recent developments I wouldn't have questioned that statement, but we are clearly supposed to be cheering for her at this point, even though she remains just as unlikeable. It's hard to read.
Yup. I remember when I myself believed that statement.

Up until 140, I was totally on-board with it.

But right now, it's pretty clear that Nishio really wants readers to like Medaka(probably because he does) and want her to live and cheer for her and such.
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