[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

As for Yasu I'm not sure if we can consider her a new character. It's a character that has always been there although masked as someone else. And it's also a character whose existence has been hinted since EP1. One can also say that Yasu is basically Beatrice.

I still completely disagree with this, but since I don't think Yasu would be the culprit even if he/she did exist, I'm not going to raise much of a stink about it. The rules don't say anything about new characters, just new characters being the culprit.

[Zekses]

I've just thought of something ... what is shown in first episode indicate quite clearly that Kinzo had some sort of a plan related to high risk and possibility of losing his body... but... didn't Natsuhi interfering and making people pretend he is alive pretty much screw the whole thing up? Can there be shards of original Kinzo's plan among other crimes?

P.S. I do not have the updated notes at hand (read some more at work) but it was hinted quite heavily that Genji is a skilled chemist. The concotion Kinzo used to drink is most certainly something chemical. Probably some kind of a strong drug. Also - I'm pretty much sure that his study has either of 2 things
- telephone line that works to transmit his voice as if he was in his study
- a voice replayer that activates whn someone approaches.

Also, as a side note - I think whatever black rituals he performed on Beato2 heavily affected her child. Can there ACTUALLY be a mistique element in the game? Constant denial of all like that leads me to suspect at least something unnatural being involved.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Zekses

I've just thought of something ... what is shown in first episode indicate quite clearly that Kinzo had some sort of a plan related to high risk and possibility of losing his body... but... didn't Natsuhi interfering and making people pretend he is alive pretty much screw the whole thing up? Can there be shards of original Kinzo's plan among other crimes?

P.S. I do not have the updated notes at hand (read some more at work) but it was hinted quite heavily that Genji is a skilled chemist. The concotion Kinzo used to drink is most certainly something chemical. Probably some kind of a strong drug. Also - I'm pretty much sure that his study has either of 2 things
- telephone line that works to transmit his voice as if he was in his study
- a voice replayer that activates whn someone approaches.

Also, as a side note - I think whatever black rituals he performed on Beato2 heavily affected her child. Can there ACTUALLY be a mistique element in the game? Constant denial of all like that leads me to suspect at least something unnatural being involved.

Again, if we look at EP7 it seems that Kinzo doesn't have any part in the events of 1986. Because:

-He died already in 1984
-He already accomplished what he was looking for just before dying
-Yasu claims she is the one behind the plan of 1986. A sort of copycat of what Kinzo already did in 1984, with some differences.


EP7 also denies any kind of black magic ritual performed by Kinzo. As I already suspected, Kinzo didn't even try to make Beatrice2 believe she was a witch and he didn't even had any reason to make her believe so.
EP7 also denies any kind of influences by Kinzo on Yasu's "madness", since apparently Kinzo didn't even know Yasu was alive until she was at least 16.


As for Genji, what is described is only the normal preparation of absinthe. If that means he's a skilled chemist, then Gohda is a nuclear physic.

[Zekses]

If that means he's a skilled chemist, then Gohda is a nuclear physic.

*hushhhhhhh*


Darn, you have obviously read past 50% I can't wait ...

[Jan-Poo]

Hopefully it won't take much longer...

[CrystalStarlight95]

I hope the patch comes soon, I'm sitting here twiddling my thumbs in anticipation~!

Do you think they'll make a Yasu sprite sorta based off of Lion's? (example: Battler's face plastered onto Kinzo's smexy young body)

[Pikumin]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

As for Genji, what is described is only the normal preparation of absinthe. If that means he's a skilled chemist, then Gohda is a nuclear physic.

So that's how Gohda managed to nuke Rokkenjima.

[CrystalStarlight95]

Originally Posted by Pikumin

So that's how Gohda managed to nuke Rokkenjima.

LOL, "Magical Gohda Multi-Nuclear-Physicist-Chef"

....Dang. I still think Gohda has at least some relevance to the story. Probably an assistant to the murders? I dunno ._.

[Cao Ni Ma]

As I said, if Shkanon is actually real then he is either being threatened or willingly lying during Nanjo/Kumasawa "dying" scene. First because he saw both Shannon and Kanon in that scene, second because there is a high probability that Nanjo and Kumasawa weren't dead yet at the time.

[Jan-Poo]

Uhm I don't think he ever stated that he saw them both. The fantasy scene messed up the correct sequence of events and Gohda in the confusion probably didn't even notice when Shannon actually left and came back.

I'm really of the idea that Gohda was still as clueless as ever in that scene. Don't forget who he was with during that time: the whole GENSAWAJO and Shannon, and no one else that could interfere.

Considering what they were able to pull on Jessica, I think we can't really put past them an even more elaborated trick.

[musouka]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

I think only Mousoka here actually believes that Bern's tea party is the truth.

To clarify, I believe THE Tea Party (it's obviously not "Bern's") is a version of the truth without context. Personally, arguing about it to me is like arguing that "[Higurashi's culprit] can't have done it because they don't hate any of the kids!" in that no one has ever given me a single satisfactory reason why it can't have technically been as shown.

Furthermore, if "any" adult could have snapped and started killing people--even though it's obvious Kyrie didn't "snap"--then why was it Kyrie AGAIN that shot Lion? Why is Ange STILL not there in Lion's world?

[AuraTwilight]

Originally Posted by CrystalStarlight95

I hope the patch comes soon, I'm sitting here twiddling my thumbs in anticipation~!

Do you think they'll make a Yasu sprite sorta based off of Lion's? (example: Battler's face plastered onto Kinzo's smexy young body)

If nothing else, there's lots of Yasu fanart.

[Renall]

I get the sense Gohda is very easy to pressure, but very bad at lying. So it's even possible he threw in a detail as a mistake.

He also could have just... seen Shannon and Kanon. You realize Shkanon is not physically necessary for any of the mysteries, right? I wish people would get over this disguise hump, especially since it isn't supported by anything. It makes [most parts of] the stories work so much better without them, and you still don't have to give up your Yasu Character Triangle if you don't want to.

[Cao Ni Ma]

Oh I agree, I really dislike the idea of Shkanon. I re-read that scene some time ago and at first it looked like he was being pressured and screwing up but he got a lot of conviction near the end and was fairly convincing.

[Zekses]

Main problem I have with shkanon theory is that a lot of scenes make no sense at all from that perspective and it's kinda hard imagining him/her constantly changing clothes/wigs. Feels like overcomplicating things. No other theory has been presented though

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by musouka

To clarify, I believe THE Tea Party (it's obviously not "Bern's") is a version of the truth without context. Personally, arguing about it to me is like arguing that "[Higurashi's culprit] can't have done it because they don't hate any of the kids!" in that no one has ever given me a single satisfactory reason why it can't have technically been as shown.

Furthermore, if "any" adult could have snapped and started killing people--even though it's obvious Kyrie didn't "snap"--then why was it Kyrie AGAIN that shot Lion? Why is Ange STILL not there in Lion's world?

Takano did have a context though. So this comparison doesn't work.

Spoiler for Mianagoroshi:

The entire second to last episode was dedicated to making Takano look as nice as possible , while showing that she controlled a dangerous asssasination group called the Mountain Hounds (Yamainu). With this group she could easily gang up on a big guy like Tomitake and kill him the way she did. (And she does) None of the kids could have restrained Tomitake like this because you needed at least 3 grown men to do it. Ooishi stated this in several episodes. All of the kids killed solo because of a persecution complex so they wouldn't have been able to do it as a group.

So it was down to either Irie or Takano by that point, no questions. Remember Higurashi's answer was given away. Umineko isn't doing that.

Her motive however wasn't outright stated until the last episode. But it was heavily implied.

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by Zekses

Main problem I have with shkanon theory is that a lot of scenes make no sense at all from that perspective and it's kinda hard imagining him/her constantly changing clothes/wigs. Feels like overcomplicating things. No other theory has been presented though

The changing outfits part is a lot easier that it might first appear. We know that the scenes with people seeing Kinzo must be fake, so any time a person who knows the truth about Shkanon sees them, their perspective can't be trusted.

Day 1:

Simply put, Kanon makes one appearance at the very beginning in the rose garden, and one token appearance halfway through, just after Maria gets her letter. That's all in every question arc, and the second appearance only happens in EP1 and EP4.

Day 2:

EP1: We never see Shannon.
EP2: Shannon is only seen by a reliable source well after Kanon's "death".
EP3: Both are dead from the beginning
EP4: Neither is seen from the beginning

So, if we don't count costume changes overnight, that makes a total of 3 changes max for both days combined in every single episode.

[Cao Ni Ma]

The problem isn't how many times it happens, the problem is that it happens. In Knox's words:

Twin brothers, and doubles generally, must not appear unless we have been duly prepared for them. The dodge is too easy, and the supposition too improbable. I would add as a rider, that no criminal should be credited with exceptional powers of disguise unless we have had fair warning that he or she was accustomed to making up for the stage. How admirably is this indicated, for example, in Trent's Last Case!

I still dont care if it ends up being the case though, as long as they aren't the actual culprit, I'll let it slide.

e- Also we dont know what constitutes a reliable witness if we cant trust the named detective in EP5 as she clearly saw everyone in the same room at the same time and called them out. (Unless the whole "lacks love" hint actually means they are two separate people in that particular episode)

Here's something to think about, detective novels usually have a competent detective as the lead. Its part of the genre and its an unwritten rule. Battler in EP2 is making all the wrong calls, from the first time I read the chapter I started to doubt he was the actual detective in it. Rosa felt like she was doing a better job at being the detective than Battler ever was (at least till the end of the episode), so what if she was the detective for that episode?

[Zekses]

We know that the scenes with people seeing Kinzo must be fake

Actually, I believe that a lot of the scenes with Kinzo are true. They are just from 2+ years prior which is never mentioned.

[CrystalStarlight95]

If you look closely, you can see Shannon and Kannon's sprite faces are 97% the exact same. But I think Kanon's chin is shaped a little differently, or maybe that's just me.

And for this you don't even NEED to look close. Shannon's breasts are HUGE, how could she have hidden them when playing as Kanon? Ouch, it would've hurt binding them down like that >_>

Also, don't you think George and Jessica would've suspected something? Probably not George because he does not live at the island, but still. Is Jessica so lonely she knows Kanon is a girl...but still goes along with it?

EDIT: Or possibly Kanon was created to comfort Jessica, but she ended up falling in love with him (NOT AS PLANNED), so that's why he now avoids her and makes up the furniture bullsh*t?