Fate/stay night Game discussion (Warning: Spoilers)

[Lorhand]

Originally Posted by OminousFlare

Looking forward to it. Is it one of those extra episodes of Tiger Dojo that gets unlocked every time you reached 10 Bad Ends?

Getting the 40 Bad Ends and all the 5 endings unlocks the Completion Ceremony. You only need the 5 endings for Last Episode afaik.

Edit:
Also... why is there a choice between "Saving Saber" and "Putting My Arm Down" on Day 16? I'm looking at the walkthrough right now and there's a Bad End after you "Save Saber"... So far, I'm not pleased with what they're doing with Saber's involvement in HF (then again, I stopped being pleased with Saber's role since UBW), so if HF's going to jerk around with Saber at the end of the route...

Because you can't save everyone. It's a punishment for all the Saber fans, who think she can still be saved. If you feel so unpleased how Saber is treated in HF, you should imagine how the Sakura fans feel. There is no happy ending for her at the end of Fate and UBW.

Spoiler for Bad End:

While "Bad" End 38 "Sparks Liner High" is such a cool ending, it's only called "End", Bad End 40 "Femme Fatale" is the absolute worst ending you can get. Do not try to save Saber. As Rin said it, if you want a more or less good ending for Saber, "play the Saber route".

[OminousFlare]

Originally Posted by Lorhand

Because you can't save everyone. It's a punishment for all the Saber fans, who think she can still be saved. If you feel so unpleased how Saber is treated in HF, you should imagine how the Sakura fans feel. There is no happy ending for her at the end of Fate and UBW.

Wow... that's just stupid. That's just freaking stupid. I don't even... Wow.

Anyway, I'm reaching the end of HF (on Day 13 now), and it won't be long before I post my overall impression for the entire game. What I could tell so far is that... I'm liking Saber a lot lesser as the story goes on. I'll explain in full details at the end of the game but, it mostly has to do with my expectations at the beginning of the story.

Feelings for Saber aside, I'll say that HF definitely has a lot more layers and depth than Fate and UBW, but not necessary better so far. UBW is still much more well-written as far as I can tell at this point in the game. After your mentioning of that punishment though... I find that completely retarded, so I don't think I'll enjoy the story as much now. At this point, it's not even about whether if I find the story good or not, just whether if I like the story or not. You can obviously tell what my feelings are in regards to the latter point.

Edit:
Why even bother to throw in those stupid-ass Saber scenes at the beginning if you're going to pull a cheap-ass move like that, Nasu? Even Urobuchi knows how to respect his fans.

[chaos_alfa]

Originally Posted by OminousFlare

Looking forward to it. Is it one of those extra episodes of Tiger Dojo that gets unlocked every time you reached 10 Bad Ends?

Originally Posted by Lorhand

Getting the 40 Bad Ends and all the 5 endings unlocks the Completion Ceremony. You only need the 5 endings for Last Episode afaik.

Seems I was mistaken. I have never read the Réalta Nua version of F/SN and that is where last episode was introduced. (I did read/see it on Youtube).

To switch to a different subject. When I was reading Fate/stay night I always deliberately sought out the dead ends. I had a few reason for doing this. The first was that dead ends often provided extra information and give a new perspective on things. The second reason was that the Tiger Dojo segments are hilarious. The third reason is that I wanted to collect all the tiger stamps and get a 100% completion rating. Often new features get unlocked when you do.
It is not very difficult to find all the dead ends. When encountering a choice you just have to try to first find which of the options is the dead end and choose that one before continuing with the story.

Originally Posted by OminousFlare

Edit:
Also... why is there a choice between "Saving Saber" and "Putting My Arm Down" on Day 16? I'm looking at the walkthrough right now and there's a Bad End after you "Save Saber"... So far, I'm not pleased with what they're doing with Saber's involvement in HF (then again, I stopped being pleased with Saber's role since UBW), so if HF's going to jerk around with Saber at the end of the route...

Seems you are spoiling yourself a bit with reading the flowchart.

I do think you will like the Saber in Fate/zero. Most viewers like that Saber rather than hate her.

[Stanfoo]

Came across this screen cap of Saber in the VN. Anyone want to explain what part of the story is this pic?

Spoiler:

[Lorhand]

I don't see a pic.

After trying to quote your post, I can see it. It's from Fate, 8th day, when Saber mentions that she once had taken care of a lion cub.

[Kanon]

Originally Posted by OminousFlare

Edit:
Also... why is there a choice between "Saving Saber" and "Putting My Arm Down" on Day 16? I'm looking at the walkthrough right now and there's a Bad End after you "Save Saber"... So far, I'm not pleased with what they're doing with Saber's involvement in HF (then again, I stopped being pleased with Saber's role since UBW), so if HF's going to jerk around with Saber at the end of the route...

There's more emotional impact when you're the one who has to pull the trigger, so to speak (other games did the same thing, like MGS3). This choice crushed the heart of more than one Saber fan. I'm not even a Saber fan, and it still got me hard.

[Cherry_Lover]

Originally Posted by Brother Coa

So?
I didn't mind that at all. It's way, way better what they have done her in visual novel.
Plus it makes Shinji likable in the end because he regrets his mistakes toward Sakura.
So I am totally ok with that.

Yes, but it makes Sakura make no damn sense. You might be OK with that, I'm not.

Originally Posted by OminousFlare

Speaking of Shinji, I have a little bit less hatred towards him now, even though I have some idea of what he's doing towards Sakura. Instead, right now I don't hate him right now as much as I pity him. He's too pathetic for me to hate him, as I don't find it kinda difficult to resent pathetic people with no power. In comparison, Gilgamesh is overpowered, so I could hate him easily for having the power to hurt people. Shinji, on the other hand, would probably be dismissed as a pathetic worm, even if he tries to rape Tohsaka (look how calmly Rin acted towards Shinji in UBW).

Yeah, I think the hate will come back later....

Just met Zouken in the game. Looks like he's planning something, despite his supposed conceding (and the piles of worms digging into his body during the interlude kinda gave it away his sinister nature).

Yeah, let's be honest, Zouken's appearance hardly screams "kindly harmless old grandpa"....

Originally Posted by OminousFlare

Also... why is there a choice between "Saving Saber" and "Putting My Arm Down" on Day 16? I'm looking at the walkthrough right now and there's a Bad End after you "Save Saber"... So far, I'm not pleased with what they're doing with Saber's involvement in HF (then again, I stopped being pleased with Saber's role since UBW), so if HF's going to jerk around with Saber at the end of the route...

Yeah, you ain't going to like that one at all....

Originally Posted by OminousFlare

Wow... that's just stupid. That's just freaking stupid. I don't even... Wow.

Saber isn't the heroine of the route. Ilya doesn't get saved in UBW, Sakura and Rider get pretty much ignored in Fate and UBW, why should Saber be different?

Edit:
Why even bother to throw in those stupid-ass Saber scenes at the beginning if you're going to pull a cheap-ass move like that, Nasu? Even Urobuchi knows how to respect his fans.

Because what happens to her is part of the point of the route.

Originally Posted by Kanon

There's more emotional impact when you're the one who has to pull the trigger, so to speak (other games did the same thing, like MGS3). This choice crushed the heart of more than one Saber fan. I'm not even a Saber fan, and it still got me hard.

Yeah, even if you're not a Saber fan, that part still does hit, and that's the point of it. It's meant to convey to the reader a bit more of an idea of what Shirou feels.

[OminousFlare]

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

Yeah, I think the hate will come back later....

Honestly, between the rape-worms and Anti-Saber/Alter Saber/whatever, I was more than numb at the point where I'm supposed to hate him in HF, because of all the bullshit Nasu pulls out of his ass.

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

Yeah, let's be honest, Zouken's appearance hardly screams "kindly harmless old grandpa"....

Hardly. He had an intimidating vibe at first, but he didn't occur to me as a villain until the interlude.

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

Saber isn't the heroine of the route. Ilya doesn't get saved in UBW, Sakura and Rider get pretty much ignored in Fate and UBW, why should Saber be different?

Like I said, I'll explain this one in my final verdict of the entire game. Just because Ilya and Sakura were underdeveloped in the other routes, it doesn't make it fair to cut off another character like that. If you're not going to have any proper use for a character other than just to troll her fans. DON'T F***ING USE HER. This is a cheap and shameless toying of emotions the likes of KyoAni. It's f***ing stupid! It's a blatant creator-plug to say, "Suck it, Saber fans; Sakura rules," when you had Saber going, "I'll be your sword and protect you" at the beginning of HF with all that BS Saber-Shirou relationship going on... What the f***ing point was that? To so-called 'emotionally toy' with you later on at the end of the route?! You might as well cut her screentime in HF just like in UBW - and nobody would notice a f***ing difference!

Jesus, Nasu. What the hell?! God, I'm so pissed off right now. Alright, alright, so the so-called 'mascot' of Fate is reduced to a cheap plot-device in the other routes, her own route sucks ass in comparison to UBW and HF, there was so much undeveloped character of hers that gets tossed WAY into Fate/Zero, which I don't even know if it's ANY good, and I'm supposed to just suck it up and take it in the ass. Alright, I get it.

Sigh. You know what? I don't even... I don't even really care at this point. It's 6 in the morning. I've put so much time and effort into the VN, and this is what I get... I'm just trying to finish the game as quickly as possible, so that I could forget about the entire experience.

Just for the record, I don't think HF was bad. I know a lot of people gave a lot of fluff to HF and Sakura, but even I could tell that it was much better-written than UBW if only for one major reason - it questioned Shirou's beliefs in a way that the 'played too safe' UBW didn't try to do, but I'll explain this in my overall summary. Right now, I'm sorry if my bitching annoyed you, and it made it look like I hate HF, but to be honest, I'm just pissed with the little things that made the entire story a much messier writing than it should have been. The info-dumping of Fate route, the unbalanced character-writing throughout all three routes, the constant rape undertones to remind you what a vulnerable place the Fate universe is for women, the pointless h-stuff, exposition scenes that had more 'telling than showing' (Google that storytelling technique if you don't know what I mean). There's just these little things that could have been done better, but they don't affect how I feel towards the writing quality of HF.

If you're gonna ask me if I think HF is a good story, I'm gonna say it's a great story. But if you ask me if I think F/SN is a good story, I'm gonna say it's average. You could hardly call F/SN a full package that's one story when the whole 'alternate route' thing doesn't make sense. This is why some VNs like Kanon and F/SN piss me off, they force you to choose one heroine's happiness over the other, and all the previous character development you had for those ignored heroines are discarded as soon as you go onto the other routes, making all the previous character evolution pointless (unless you have the parallel universe memory-alteration like Clannad and Little Busters). Does that make HF the One True Route because it's at the end of the story? Why did Saber and Archer magically resolve their issues in the other routes? It doesn't matter. I don't know if this is a kick among masochistic VN readers, but I find it completely stupid - and the School Days VN agrees with me by deconstructing said point.

Sigh. I'm just bitching at this point. I really hope that the F/SN remake cleans up all the mess in the VN.

[GDB]

1) She clearly wasn't the mascot of TypeMoon at the time. This was 10 years ago. She didn't become the mascot until well afterwards, when she was shown to be the most popular. This is why Last Episode was made in the first place.

2) Don't bitch about Saber fans getting trolled, when Illya got a much less glorious sendoff in UBW. The point is to tell a story with the cast that exists within the story. That means you don't just ignore characters so as to not offend fans. Sakura is a bit of an exception here, since not ignoring her in the first two routes would've seriously spoiled the third route.

[OminousFlare]

Originally Posted by GDB

2) Don't bitch about Saber fans getting trolled, when Illya got a much less glorious sendoff in UBW. The point is to tell a story with the cast that exists within the story. That means you don't just ignore characters so as to not offend fans.

Like ignoring Saber in UBW? Because she was pretty much wallpaper in that route. That's not a story, that's a convenient plot-device.

Honestly, you're missing my point if you brought up Ilya that way. Read the second-half of my post, the part about VN heroines being ignored. I wasn't just bitching about Saber, I was bitching about the way characters are handled in the entire VN.

[Cherry_Lover]

Originally Posted by OminousFlare

Hardly. He had an intimidating vibe at first, but he didn't occur to me as a villain until the interlude.

Fair enough.

Like I said, I'll explain this one in my final verdict of the entire game. Just because Ilya and Sakura were underdeveloped in the other routes, it doesn't make it fair to cut off another character like that. If you're not going to have any proper use for a character other than just to troll her fans. DON'T F***ING USE HER. This is a cheap and shameless toying of emotions the likes of KyoAni. It's f***ing stupid! It's a blatant creator-plug to say, "Suck it, Saber fans; Sakura rules," when you had Saber going, "I'll be your sword and protect you" at the beginning of HF with all that BS Saber-Shirou relationship going on... What the f***ing point was that? To so-called 'emotionally toy' with you later on at the end of the route?! You might as well cut her screentime in HF just like in UBW - and nobody would notice a f***ing difference!

Well, Saber had to be involved somehow, since she's Shirou's servant, and I think the "turning her Dark" thing fitted with what Nasu wanted to put across.

This is why some VNs like Kanon and F/SN piss me off, they force you to choose one heroine's happiness over the other, and all the previous character development you had for those ignored heroines are discarded as soon as you go onto the other routes, making all the previous character evolution pointless (unless you have the parallel universe memory-alteration like Clannad and Little Busters). Does that make HF the One True Route because it's at the end of the story? Why did Saber and Archer magically resolve their issues in the other routes? It doesn't matter. I don't know if this is a kick among masochistic VN readers, but I find it completely stupid - and the School Days VN agrees with me by deconstructing said point.

Yeah, I don't disagree with this, although I see it more from Sakura's end rather than Saber's. If you go back and look at Fate or UBW from Sakura's viewpoint after reading HF, they sound like far less happy endings....

Originally Posted by Brother Coa

Yeah, last episode is really great. And to many it is the ending the story needed to be really concluded.

Except that it is clearly a Fate-specific ending, and yet comes after HF, which is frankly bizarre. Especially given that it doesn't even mention Sakura, despite us seeing her situation in HF.

[Brother Coa]

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

Except that it is clearly a Fate-specific ending, and yet comes after HF, which is frankly bizarre. Especially given that it doesn't even mention Sakura, despite us seeing her situation in HF.

So?

Not everything revolves around Sakura. It seems that people were ok with her end as they demanded for Saber to have a better one.

[Brother Coa]

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

If you go back and look at Fate or UBW from Sakura's viewpoint after reading HF, they sound like far less happy endings....

Except that we absolutely no proof that Zouken did that to her after Holy Grail War ended. To Zouken she is useless so he leave her alone and continue crying for his loved one. For all what we know ( and what I concluded ) Sakura continued living normal life with Shirou and others same thing we saw in the conclusion of Fate and UBW.

Moreover her life should be even better as Shinji died in Fate and that means no more beating and raping and Shinji changed in UBW so that also means no more beating and fighting.

To say that she only got happy ending in HF is plain dumb. She only got love interest and nothing else.

[Cherry_Lover]

Originally Posted by Brother Coa

So?

Not everything revolves around Sakura. It seems that people were ok with her end as they demanded for Saber to have a better one.

My point is that it's clearly not an ending for the story as a whole, it's an ending for Fate. It does not "conclude the story", it just gives Saber a happier ending in the Fate route. Nothing more.

Originally Posted by Brother Coa

Except that we absolutely no proof that Zouken did that to her after Holy Grail War ended. To Zouken she is useless so he leave her alone and continue crying for his loved one. For all what we know ( and what I concluded ) Sakura continued living normal life with Shirou and others same thing we saw in the conclusion of Fate and UBW.

Moreover her life should be even better as Shinji died in Fate and that means no more beating and raping and Shinji changed in UBW so that also means no more beating and fighting.

To say that she only got happy ending in HF is plain dumb. She only got love interest and nothing else.

We don't know what happens to her post-Fate or post-UBW, no, but I somehow doubt Zouken would just "leave her alone". His soul is in a worm inside her body, and even if he can't use her to fight in the war, he can still use her to produce an heir to fight in the next one.

Sure, she could still get a happy ending in Fate and UBW, but it does likely require further effort on the part of Shirou and Rin. For one thing, even if she is free of Zouken (which is unlikely given that he is still alive and residing in her body), without Shirou and Rin around and with no-one aware of her past, I doubt her life is going to exactly be nice.

[cyberdemon]

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

We don't know what happens to her post-Fate or post-UBW, no, but I somehow doubt Zouken would just "leave her alone". His soul is in a worm inside her body, and even if he can't use her to fight in the war, he can still use her to produce an heir to fight in the next one.

Sure, she could still get a happy ending in Fate and UBW, but it does likely require further effort on the part of Shirou and Rin. For one thing, even if she is free of Zouken (which is unlikely given that he is still alive and residing in her body), without Shirou and Rin around and with no-one aware of her past, I doubt her life is going to exactly be nice.

Sadly Sakura has a bigger issue on hand than Shinji. Mainly that Zouken wants to make her his new body!

[chaos_alfa]

Originally Posted by cyberdemon

Sadly Sakura has a bigger issue on hand than Shinji. Mainly that Zouken wants to make her his new body!

Spoiler for Heaven's Feel - Zouken's Goal:

I don't remember that being his goal for her. From what I remember his original goal was to use her to bear a child which would be able to win the next Holy Grail war.

With the normal cycle, when one Grail War is done the next takes place after 60. Because the 4th Grail War ended prematurely or something it only took 10 years before the 5th Grail War started.

After the 4th Grail War Zouken experimented with some of the leftovers of the Lesser Grail to turn Sakura in to a Fake Lesser Grail. I'm fussy on details from this point on, but I think I remember that if Sakura awakened as the Lesser Grail Zouken wanted to use her to make him immoral. He would be able to control her through the crest worm implanted in her, or it is like you said, he wanted to completely take over her body to have more control over her, but I think it was rather the former.

[Cherry_Lover]

Yeah, that's not Zouken's goal, if he wanted to take Sakura's body he'd have done so a long time before.

However, whilst it isn't his goal, as such, if she is of no value to him and no-one important around to question where she went, there is no reason for him not to take her body. It saves him the effort of looking for another one.

I suspect he wouldn't do it immediately, because she is still useful to him in order to breed an heir, but that is not exactly a great outcome for her (producing a child for him to torture from birth) and, based on the implied fate of Shinji's mother, it seems likely that he would kill her once she had given birth. The only thing that would save her would be the possibility of Rin or Shirou asking questions if she dies suddenly.

Ultimately, it's pretty simple. If killing Sakura gives Zouken a better outcome (however small the difference) than not killing her does, then he'll do it. Conversely, if keeping her alive gives him the better outcome, he'll do that. At best, that is a very crappy life to live, knowing that you could be killed at any time for any reason, and I suspect that, unless Shirou and Rin hang around and watch over her (so that killing her will put pressure on Zouken), he would eventually end up killing her just because there is no reason not to.

Also, we don't need to spoiler HF discussion any more, OminousFlare has finished playing through it, I think.

[chaos_alfa]

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

Also, we don't need to spoiler HF discussion any more, OminousFlare has finished playing through it, I think.

I'm not so sure about that. Two day ago (s)he said (s)he had only finished half of Heaven's Feel.

Originally Posted by OminousFlare

This is probably why when I look back at it, having played half of HF, feels that Saber's story didn't really have as much depth as the other characters' stories. Actions speak louder than words, and showing is always better than telling in storytelling. Whereas there was plenty of 'telling' in terms of Saber's significance, there was more showing in regards to Archer and Sakura's character depth. "Drown in your ideals and die," Archer's quote, was exemplified by Shirou's actions, so we could relate better to the kind of person Archer is. Most of Saber's 'development' in Fate route, on the other hand, was mostly spent on Shirou's dreams about Saber's past (which is really just an exposition scene that's more 'telling' than 'showing' if you think about it), Saber protecting Shirou, or Shirou trying to protect Saber while whining about not wanting Saber to be harmed.

It also seems (s)he hasn't yet wrote his reflection on Heaven's Feel which (s)he was planning to when (s)he was had completed it.
It also seems like (s)he hasn't yet read the Last Episode, which (s)he would have unlocked if (s)he had read the two endings of Heaven Feel.

[GDB]

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

based on the implied fate of Shinji's mother, it seems likely that he would kill her once she had given birth.

I thought he only tossed her to the worms because Shinji turned out so pathetic? I could see him wanting Sakura to continue to produce offspring for him, just to ensure the line doesn't dry up again. More options, and all that.

[Brother Coa]

Originally Posted by GDB

I thought he only tossed her to the worms because Shinji turned out so pathetic? I could see him wanting Sakura to continue to produce offspring for him, just to ensure the line doesn't dry up again. More options, and all that.

And even more of a reason to let her live a normal life and use her children for 6'th if he don't do anything in 5'th Holy Grail War - just like he probably did in Fate and UBW.

He had anything in place, I don't see why would he made her suffer after the war's end.