Espada and Vizard Discussion

[SeanQ]

Originally Posted by Ichimaru

wow ppl are overrating the vizards....

when those guys were still captains/vc or seated...they didnt do crap against aizen when they became hallofication.

during the 100yrs that has pass after hallowfication, they could just go into SS and get aizen, but no...so why wait after 100yrs? even after 100yrs they havnt shown me anything that makes them superior to aizen.

They didn't do anyting to Aizen because they were still in the process of being hollowfied...and none of them knew Aizen was behind it, except for Shinji during that time...
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VAPORIZER IOLITE

[SimplyAJ]

Originally Posted by Mashda2k6

Vaizards should be super strong. Think about it, most of them captain-level 100 years ago, after that ~100 years of training with the mask upgrade, the once-captain-level Vaizard should be mega strong now. The once-vice-cpn-level Vaizard should be past the captain level as well.

I also definetly think they are stronger than the Espada, seeing as Ichigo did have problems with Grimmjow in Hueco Mundo when he was able to fully control the mask & bankai mode, and at the same time Hirako didn't release the mask, or bankai or shikai and pwned Grimmjow(I know, Grimmjow wasn't released his zanpaktou either, like he had in the Ichigo battle) but still.

I think bankai mode + masked EX-Captain Vaizard should be at Gin or Tousen's power level.

do you guys agree/disagree with me?

Whoa whoa what? That doesn't even make sense. Let's look at Gin and Tousen for a second.

While we haven't seen Gin's TRUE abilities, we have seen Tousen's, and they aren't that great. Kenpachi pretty much easily overwhelmed him, even when Tousen was using his Bankai. That being said ... Tousen isn't "godly" in the least.

Now, Ichigo, at that time, was on par with Kenpachi. They had a "stalemate" battle of sorts. Later on in the series, Ichigo encounters Grimmjow and is overwhelmed. Shinji pretty much brushes Grimmjow to the side like trash in less than a second, without even actually trying.

Later on in the most recent arc, we see Shinji mop the floor with Tousen. Shinji, who has had no time to control his hollow powers, is quickly becoming overwhelmed and mentally weakened by them, knocks around Tousen like nothing.

So, give him 100 years to train with the mask, do you really think he needs to use his bankai to beat Tousen? C'mon, man.

Visored Bankai is something we haven't even seen yet (excluding Ichigo), but I can't imagine it needing to be used on someone like Tousen just to stand on equal footing.

[Mashda2k6]

Well, the thing is, I got this idea that Gin and Tousen got a major powerup when they went to HM with Aizen. Something to do with Hyogoku~~? Is this false or fact? And this is why think Gin & Tousen > Espada Crew, and by saying Shinji is equal to Gin and Tousen I mean he's more powerful than the Espada.


anyway basing it on that i thought so, but I still do think Gin is still very strong. We have yet to see his bankai, and somehow I think Aizen has calculated and thought that Gin has potential to be strong etc and thus choosing him as his comrade.

And Tousen well, back in the past arc Tousen wasn't using his bankai. And I don't think Shinji can manage like Kenpachi inside that dark bubble. Though I'm pretty sure Shinji & co have thought of Tousen ability and thought of an idea how to beat Tousen.

edited

[kitten320]

Originally Posted by Mashda2k6

And Tousen well, back in the past arc Tousen wasn't using his bankai. And I don't think Shinji can manage like Kenpachi inside that dark bubble. Though I'm pretty sure Shinji & co have thought of Tousen ability and thought of an idea how to beat Tousen.

edited

You definetly have missed something since it definetly was his bankai that he used on Vizards back then.

[SimplyAJ]

You see, what I want to know is ...

Spoiler for Turn Back Arc:

Why not ONE of the captains used their Bankai when they were encountering Kensei. Hell, they didn't even use their Shikais. It's no wonder they lost so brutally, they just ... did nothing, essentially.

[Mashda2k6]

Originally Posted by kitten320

You definetly have missed something since it definetly was his bankai that he used on Vizards back then.

I meant against Shinji, I know he used bankai against Kensei and his green haired vice but Shinji they just swordfighted without bankais etc, I'm quite sure.

[sayde]

Originally Posted by SimplyAJ

While we haven't seen Gin's TRUE abilities, we have seen Tousen's, and they aren't that great. Kenpachi pretty much easily overwhelmed him, even when Tousen was using his Bankai. That being said ... Tousen isn't "godly" in the least.

I'm not sure that fight is such a great example of how weak Tousen supposedly is since Ken had such blatant plot protection. IIRC, Tousen had at least 2 extremely easy opportunities to strike a vital point or cut off a limb before Ken started adapting to the situation. Had Tousen dealt with Ken in the same exact manner as he did the Vizards, he more than likely would've won. Why he decided to toy around and monologue to someone who couldn't even hear him in the first place is beyond me.

Originally Posted by SimplyAJ

Later on in the most recent arc, we see Shinji mop the floor with Tousen. Shinji, who has had no time to control his hollow powers, is quickly becoming overwhelmed and mentally weakened by them, knocks around Tousen like nothing.

Point taken, but Shinji was still at least able to benefit from the added strength of his new hollow powers for the time being (as he himself acknowledged). So I'm not sure if Shinji was at a complete and overwhelming disadvantage. Lastly, as Mashda2k6 pointed out, I wonder how things would've turned out if Tousen had just used his Bankai again.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, let's not immediately assume how weak Tousen is just yet. He's got crappy judgment apparently, but his Bankai is pretty cheap if you think about it. So long as he doesn't mess around, he's practically guaranteed at least one open opportunity to strike his opponent immediately after its use while they're undergoing the "wtf!?" phase. Of course, this is all assuming the opponent knows nothing about Tousen or his Bankai prior to fighting him.

IMO, Tousen makes a great assassin and therefore is at his best when he fights like one.

[FanFan]

Its most likely that Tousen just learned his bankai and didn't understand it completely. Since then he has had 100 years to train it. Also it is apparently good enough to get him to Captain. I agree Tousen would make a good assassin he obviously has trouble fighting head on like the fight with Ken.

[Crystal Dreamer]

I think that it would be hard to compare the two due to time and the fact neither has seriously fought one another

Spoiler for TBTP:

Also they don't have to be against one another as Shinji said that he has a debt to both Aizen and Urahara

Though to be honest that is not very likely as Shinji at least seems to hate/distrust Aizen

[Mecha_Trueno]

Originally Posted by Crystal Dreamer

Also they don't have to be against one another as Shinji said that he has a debt to both Aizen and Urahara

... forgive me if I'm misunderstanding your post, but...... do you not understand the concept of sarcasm?

[Crystal Dreamer]

Originally Posted by Mecha_Trueno

... forgive me if I'm misunderstanding your post, but...... do you not understand the concept of sarcasm?

Sorry what i was trying to say was that since the espanda are already so reduce and the vizards also hate the Shinigami (they did try to slaughter them like hollows), the vizards might focus and wiping out the Shinigami first before turning on Aizen
though even i admit this is sot of far out

[Mecha_Trueno]

I was refering to your point about "Also they don't have to be against one another as Shinji said that he has a debt to both Aizen and Urahara"

What shinji meant was that he owes one to Urahara (and means it for real) and to Aizen (in the "it's pay back time!" sense).

Interesting possibility you made here though:

the vizards might focus and wiping out the Shinigami first before turning on Aizen

[Kitsueki]

Originally Posted by Crystal Dreamer

Sorry what i was trying to say was that since the espanda are already so reduce and the vizards also hate the Shinigami (they did try to slaughter them like hollows), the vizards might focus and wiping out the Shinigami first before turning on Aizen
though even i admit this is sot of far out

While its true they were wronged, you can count on some of them becoming wiser through that experience

I know Hiyori is hateful towards shinigami.
However, you could count on Shinji, Rose, Love, and Hachi at the very least to understand that it wasn't the shinigami that did it, it was the people in charge.
They all had people they cared about and the like, they understand lol.

I think they'll measure if they really have to step in.
They'll probably either... wait until no ones left to defend, or they'll cut the top 3 captains a break and make their big "Oh, you remember me? Yeah you do! Im gonna win this fight and dont you step in, I have a debt I must repay to them"
talk.