Claymore Chapter 98

[Alleluia_Cone]

I enjoy reading many of the arguments that people make here, but sometimes they seem to veer into the land of pure semantics and become overtly and overly technical.

For example, when comparing the "Abyssal Ones" to each other, I think it's both reasonable and generally correct to assume that they are equally as strong as one another. This seems to be the idea that the writer wanted to implant into the minds of his readers over the course of the story. I see no reason to really try to shatter that equilibrium.

Although, if pressed to do so, maybe you could make the argument that Luciela is the weakest of the three, although, only in the sense that she seems to be less cunning and intelligent than the other two. Nevertheless, I think it is probably the case that:

Riful = Isley = Luciela = Rafaela

Personally, I would add Teresa to that chain but then half the forum would cry bloody murder as usual.

In any case, I only delved into the topic to opine that I think it is instructive to view the fight between Riful and Alicia as some sort of barometer in regard to how powerful the latter is compared to Isley.

That being said, certain things need to be taken into account. For one, Riful wasn't facing off against Alicia alone, but with a pack of Abyssal Feeders. Plus, the general chaos following the emergence of Raciela also muddled matters further.

Personally though, I do think that Alicia and Beth are stronger than the "Abyssal Ones." I feel that the both of them together, when fully awakened, could take down Riful, Isley, and Luciela combined. Although, this would not serve much of a purpose for the organization, it would be trading three powerful abominations for two even more powerful abominations.

[Gattberserk]

So now that boil down to a million dollar question:


Who is more powerful, Prisc or the giant Raciela?



Anyway with regard to whether Priscilla has gotten stronger is really unknown at this point. While her mind could have "matured" all these years, it could also mean better understanding of her own power and how to effectively use them. Maybe she was this strong ever since she was awakened, just that in the past she might not know how to tap into her power well hence it make her seem weaker...

[Shiek927]

Originally Posted by Gattberserk

So now that boil down to a million dollar question:


Who is more powerful, Prisc or the giant Raciela?



Anyway with regard to whether Priscilla has gotten stronger is really unknown at this point. While her mind could have "matured" all these years, it could also mean better understanding of her own power and how to effectively use them. Maybe she was this strong ever since she was awakened, just that in the past she might not know how to tap into her power well hence it make her seem weaker...

Priscilla

Putting aside people thinking she's gotten stronger, which I don't agree with(getting stronger is impossible when she had her exponetial growth), we know for certain she is 3 to 4x an AO. Raciella as far as we know, is 2xAO.

The only way Raciella could be stronger is by giving her the benefit of the doubt(Riful saying she's just getting stronger and stronger), which means either Rafaela or Luciella had much bigger potential then we thought which makes for a huge outcome.

Of course, MisterJB has argued before that you can't simply do 1+1=2 with something like this...I forget his exact words, but he said fusion usually worked differently.

Well, until we get something a bit more concrete, definitely Priscilla. We've known how strong she was since Day 1 and although Raciella has really shaken things up, their is still enough data, and of course, the latest chapter, to keep her on the top spot.

Personally though, I do think that Alicia and Beth are stronger than the "Abyssal Ones." I feel that the both of them together, when fully awakened, could take down Riful, Isley, and Luciela combined. Although, this would not serve much of a purpose for the organization, it would be trading three powerful abominations for two even more powerful abominations.

So? They don't care; Alicia and Beth serve under them.

The Abyssals are just mistakes they're cleaning up. All the Org care about is making their ultimate mass-production soldier, regardless of what it is, human or whatever.

Raciella is the biggest monster of all, and Dae was shaken up with admiration and envy.

[HegemonKhan]

priscilla > destroyer

destroyer is-was all hype, which the return of "big bad" priscilla shattered

[Aquillion]

Originally Posted by Gattberserk

Anyway with regard to whether Priscilla has gotten stronger is really unknown at this point. While her mind could have "matured" all these years, it could also mean better understanding of her own power and how to effectively use them. Maybe she was this strong ever since she was awakened, just that in the past she might not know how to tap into her power well hence it make her seem weaker...

Also, we don't really know whether Priscilla had to use her awakened form to beat Isley. She used it, but she was also beating him absurdly easily (just like now), completely ignoring his attacks and regenerating from them instantly.

And she was acting completely bizarre in that fight. She might simply have taken her awakened form because she wanted to see what would happen and how she reacted; we don't really know how she thinks or why she does anything. But her general attitude in that fight does seem to say that she didn't think she was in any danger, so I'd tend to assume that she could have beaten him without taking her Awakened form if she really wanted to. She just didn't, for her own bizarre reasons.

[MisterJB]

Originally Posted by Shiek927

Of course, MisterJB has argued before that you can't simply do 1+1=2 with something like this...I forget his exact words, but he said fusion usually worked differently.

Like I had said, IMO, the power of the Destroyer is not simply the power of Luciela added to the power of Raphaela. 1AO + 1AO+ = 2 AOs. I think this is wrong. Using math in order to find out someone's power it's always wrong.

I gave the example of DBZ. Goten and Trunk had no chance in Hell of defeating Majin Buu or even achieving SuperSaiyajin 3 but when they fused, they were able to do that and much more.

Personally, I believe that The Destroyer is the strongest character that was ever born on Claymore. It is a cataclysm, it can give birth to Hellcats that can give the top tiers of the Ghosts a run for their money like if it's nothing, it can spread an infection, one of those spikes were enough to defeat Beth, etc. And we have yet to see the main body move (except when it attacks Clare).

Riful = Isley = Luciela

In any case, I only delved into the topic to opine that I think it is instructive to view the fight between Riful and Alicia as some sort of barometer in regard to how powerful the latter is compared to Isley.

I am interested in how you've reached that conclusion. Because I've always tought of Riful as inferior to Isley, both in power and intelligence.

The figths that involved Riful on this arc only srved to cement my idea.

So, what makes you think that Riful is superior to Isley?

You said that Luciela was the weakest because she was less cunning and intelligent. So, you believe that Riful is more intelligent than Isley?

If so, I strongly disagree with that.
Riful has shown an ability to understand the situation at hand, to think fast and to find a way to use that situation for her purposes. In that, I can agree she is superior to Isley since we haven't seen him doing nothing of the kind with the possible exception of managing to turn Priscilla to his side.

But Riful has shown that she just simply is not good at doing large scale plans that takes years to come to fruition while Isley is a master at this. Riful's biggest plan so far was to Awaken The Destroyer. And it was dumb plan.
First, because it was based on wishful thinking that The Destroyer would be weaker than her and obedient.
Second, because she wanted The Destroyer to be a bit weaker than her. Well, if the Destroyer had indeed been a bit weaker than Riful, then even if they joined their forces, they wouldn't have been able to defeat Isley and Priscilla.
Third, well, it just blew up on her face, didn't it. She was lucky that she wasn't close when The Destroyer Awakened.

While Isley - during the time that it took for Clare to become a Claymore, find Raki, kill Ophelia, etc - manipulated the entire Continent into thinking that Priscilla was weaker than an Abyssal One and managed to gather and army.
Eventually, Isley's large scale plan gave him control of the South and I believe that he and Priscilla would have conquered the entire Continent if they hadn't encontered Raki.

As for the physical power, it's hard to say since they have never squared off. But the truth is that we've seen that Isley had a lot more stamina than Riful, he has healed from wounds far more dangerous that those we've seen Riful suffering (with the exception of those moments where Riful loses half of her head)and still managing to mantain Awakened form.
And this while he was already wounded.

So, why do you think that the Alicia vs Riful figth is a good way to measure their power compared to Isley?

[little_angel]

but there is something that Clare said about Ricilla that it will do it (the cat attack) over and over agian till there is nothing of its power left ..

so this means that Ricilla is getting weaker everytime it uses that cat thing attack so even if Ricilla is stronger it will get weaker everytime it uses that and Pris will be stroger and if Pris is stronger it will be an easy battle for her if Ricilla keep using it ..

[irvinethearcher]

Originally Posted by MisterJB

But Riful has shown that she just simply is not good at doing large scale plans that takes years to come to fruition while Isley is a master at this. Riful's biggest plan so far was to Awaken The Destroyer. And it was dumb plan.

And what would you have done if you were her?
She was right to try to search for allies and to awaken raciella - the last chapter proved that. Without priscilla riful would have died against the twins and that's for sure. We saw that they could both awaken and that would have been riful's death. She knew instinctively that she was in danger and that she had to search for powerful allies. And if we think about it she would have had enough time to kill raciella if she would have been near her the moment she awakened. She said herself on dauff's shoulders that the chances for defeating the destroyer were 50% but it was still growing and it was already awaken and time had past.
She really showed good intelligence and survival instinct in the last chapters.
IMO she is on pair with easley. riful waited 7 years for raciella to awaken. She couldn't know that clare triggered raciella's awakening that was absolutely not foreseeable so she followed renee.

[HegemonKhan]

If Riful wasn't a sadistic torture BEEP, maybe she'd have more AB forces, like Isley had...

about Luciela, we really can't tell much about her, except this from a close look at the manga scene of their face-off:

Luciela actually did hold her own quite well against Isley. She wasn't instantly defeated, like Alicia was to priscilla. Luciela matched Isley in power. Luciela only slightly ran out of yoki or yoma power, before Isley did. Luciela wisely runs away before she losses her awakened form. Unfortunately, the Organization-Rubel sent Rafaela and she ran into Rafaela, whom killed her.

HOWEVER, immediately after Luciela starts to run away, Isley as well losses his awakened form too. Based on this, Luciela and Isley are equal in power, with maybe Isley just a sliver more powerful. Maybe the only real difference, is that Isley is a better bluffer. Not letting Luciela realize Isley is also about to lose his awakened form.

(what is funny, is that Isley would have been killed too by Riful at probably the same time Luciela dies to Rafaela, lol. except, Isley lucked out that priscilla came to his side....)

I really wish we could have seen more of Luciela, especially her in battle against isley. the few battle images given weren't even close to useful.

[little_angel]

As for the physical power, it's hard to say since they have never squared off. But the truth is that we've seen that Isley had a lot more stamina than Riful, he has healed from wounds far more dangerous that those we've seen Riful suffering (with the exception of those moments where Riful loses half of her head)and still managing to mantain Awakened form.
And this while he was already wounded.

in my opinion , i think that head heal thing made Rufil special because the only weakness that Yoma and AB have is there head .. and Rufil didnt suffer at all from that damage she barely was hurt by that and she was able to change her form .. i dont think that Easely or Lucillia or Pris would survive if they were in that situation ..

[MisterJB]

Originally Posted by irvinethearcher

And what would you have done if you were her?
She was right to try to search for allies and to awaken raciella - the last chapter proved that. Without priscilla riful would have died against the twins and that's for sure. We saw that they could both awaken and that would have been riful's death. She knew instinctively that she was in danger and that she had to search for powerful allies. And if we think about it she would have had enough time to kill raciella if she would have been near her the moment she awakened. She said herself on dauff's shoulders that the chances for defeating the destroyer were 50% but it was still growing and it was already awaken and time had past.
She really showed good intelligence and survival instinct in the last chapters.
IMO she is on pair with easley. riful waited 7 years for raciella to awaken. She couldn't know that clare triggered raciella's awakening that was absolutely not foreseeable so she followed renee.

I was not saying that her idea of looking for allies was a bad one. It's the logical thing to do but the place that she searched for allies was the wrong one and I think I've already proven why. Did you read the rest of my post before answering?

Let's look at this again, ok?

Riful tought that Priscilla had the power of two Abyssal Ones, she knew that she was on Isley's side and that they could come and kill her anytime they felt like. Searching for allies it's te only thing she could do.

But the way she searched for allies was dumb. First of all, her whole oplan was based on wishful thinking that The Destroyer would be weaker than her and obedient. If her best plan was based on wishful thinking, that's already a big problem.

We also know that Riful wanted The Destroyer to be a bit weaker than her. If the The Destroyer had been weaker than Riful like she wanted, then The Destroyer would be useless against Priscilla and Isley.

So, not only was Riful's plan based on wishful thinking, her plan was doomed from the start. Because she wanted The Destroyer to be weaker than her instead of acting like Isley and try to control something that was vastly more powerful that herself.

So, this was Riful's biggest plan. Are you gonna tell me it was smart?

What was the intelligence that she showed on the lastest chapters? To understand that Isley is dead? To understand The Dark Twin's abilities? To use Dauf to attack Beth?
Yes, but like I had admitted, Riful is good at understanding the current situation and make a quick plan of how to use it to her advantage. However, she is not good at making large scale plans.

Also, Riful couldn't have killed The Destroyer even if she was close. When it Awakened, it just blew up everything around himself.

And, first you need to believe on Riful's readings. She also tought that 2 Abyssals could kill Priscilla and that has been proven wrong.

But, even if she was rigth, 50% of chances of killing it, it is not 100%.

Originally Posted by little_angel

in my opinion , i think that head heal thing made Rufil special because the only weakness that Yoma and AB have is there head .. and Rufil didnt suffer at all from that damage she barely was hurt by that and she was able to change her form .. i dont think that Easely or Lucillia or Pris would survive if they were in that situation ..

I didn't say they would survive it but the truth is that Riful got three or four holes on her and she can't no longer maintain the Awakened form.

Isley was stabbed many times by Helen, she blew up half of his torso and he still Awakened. And he was already wounded when she met him.
He never left the Awakened form, not even when he had only one arm and one leg left.

[Joe_fh]

Originally Posted by MisterJB

Personally, I believe that The Destroyer is the strongest character that was ever born on Claymore. It is a cataclysm, it can give birth to Hellcats that can give the top tiers of the Ghosts a run for their money like if it's nothing, it can spread an infection, one of those spikes were enough to defeat Beth, etc. And we have yet to see the main body move (except when it attacks Clare).

I'd like to think that as well and yet if it's ture there's really no why do beat it. Not only that but it's not even atacking in a normal way yet. Oh and let's not forget it's upper body is in the shape of the two godesses which is kind of like a symbol to the series thus giving the "ultimate boss" feel to it. Well we won't know until we see it^^

Originally Posted by MisterJB

I am interested in how you've reached that conclusion. Because I've always tought of Riful as inferior to Isley, both in power and intelligence.

The figths that involved Riful on this arc only srved to cement my idea.

So, what makes you think that Riful is superior to Isley?

You said that Luciela was the weakest because she was less cunning and intelligent. So, you believe that Riful is more intelligent than Isley?

If so, I strongly disagree with that.
Riful has shown an ability to understand the situation at hand, to think fast and to find a way to use that situation for her purposes. In that, I can agree she is superior to Isley since we haven't seen him doing nothing of the kind with the possible exception of managing to turn Priscilla to his side.

But Riful has shown that she just simply is not good at doing large scale plans that takes years to come to fruition while Isley is a master at this. Riful's biggest plan so far was to Awaken The Destroyer. And it was dumb plan.
First, because it was based on wishful thinking that The Destroyer would be weaker than her and obedient.
Second, because she wanted The Destroyer to be a bit weaker than her. Well, if the Destroyer had indeed been a bit weaker than Riful, then even if they joined their forces, they wouldn't have been able to defeat Isley and Priscilla.
Third, well, it just blew up on her face, didn't it. She was lucky that she wasn't close when The Destroyer Awakened.

While Isley - during the time that it took for Clare to become a Claymore, find Raki, kill Ophelia, etc - manipulated the entire Continent into thinking that Priscilla was weaker than an Abyssal One and managed to gather and army.
Eventually, Isley's large scale plan gave him control of the South and I believe that he and Priscilla would have conquered the entire Continent if they hadn't encontered Raki.

As for the physical power, it's hard to say since they have never squared off. But the truth is that we've seen that Isley had a lot more stamina than Riful, he has healed from wounds far more dangerous that those we've seen Riful suffering (with the exception of those moments where Riful loses half of her head)and still managing to mantain Awakened form.
And this while he was already wounded.

So, why do you think that the Alicia vs Riful figth is a good way to measure their power compared to Isley?

Well I don't think anyone vs anyone fight is a good measure unles the fight one on one. Alicia vs Riful wasn't really an even fight and Alicia neve fought Isley in the first place so there's no way to actually compare them with that.

Also I don't think Luciela was weaker than Isley. They said he defeated her but it really didn't seem like it.
We see them fighting and they were evenly matched. After the fight we only saw Luciela and she was alive thus Isley didn't win since he couldn't finsih her off. The only reason he ended up wining the fight for the South was because Rafaela "killed" Luciela thus leaving the South wide open for Isley. As we know by know if you don't actually kill a strong AB let alone an AO it will regenerate and be good as new given enough time. So since he failed to kill her on the sot he didn't win. ISley also didn't go after her meaning he probably couldn't so the most natural outcome would have been a draw.

As for intelligence Riful tried to do the only thing she could do. First she tried awakeining strong Claymores to become ABs which was really a smart move next she tired gathering AB's which didn't work out so she moved on by trying to awaken Raciela.
She said that if The Destroyer was stonger meaning she would sense it's potential the same way Teresa sensed Priscilla's she would have killed it. And she could have or at least she stood a chance against it. It was her last resort. I mean what did you expect going against everyone on her own?
On that note wasn't Riful looking for a storng Yoki sensing Claymore even before Luciela and Rafaela merged? Can't really remember but I think she was. If anyone remembers would you mind sharing?
Either way those moves were the most logical and they were her only options. The only other thing she could have done was go against Isley after his fight with Luciela but she knew about Prissy thus that wasn't a logical move. (but hey if she did she would have won )

Isley on the other hand did exactley wat the organization wanted him to do. Go and fight the other AOs thus they would end up killing each other and they'll mop up the remains. And they did so starting with him and the AF. That wasn't really a smart move on his part since by doing this it was natural that the organization would target him first. Isley relied too much on raw power and not strategy in my oppinion. Otherwise he would have atacked the Organization and Alicia and Beth first since hew knew about them. I would imagine one would notice if his army gets wiped out by something with yoki of an AO level.

With all this said plus the things mentioned before I do indeed believe Rafaela ~Lucieala~Alicia~Beth~Isley~Riful in terms of power. They are all AO level and as such even if one has slightly more power than the rest it doesn't really matter since overall their level is very similar. In Teresa's and Prissy's case the gap between their and an AO's power is too much to simply cover with more expirience and the like.

[little_angel]

Well I don't think anyone vs anyone fight is a good measure unles the fight one on one. Alicia vs Riful wasn't really an even fight and Alicia neve fought Isley in the first place so there's no way to actually compare them with that.

well the org chose Rufil to be killed by Alicia because Alicia is the only one suitable to kill her .. just like Rufil said her body shape is perfect for cutting things into tiny pieces which is Rufils only weakness .. and Easley is so different from her .. his body can change .. and every weopen he uses needs a new fighting style to kill him .. which is not what Alicia is made for ..

[MisterJB]

Originally Posted by Joe_fh

Well I don't think anyone vs anyone fight is a good measure unles the fight one on one. Alicia vs Riful wasn't really an even fight and Alicia neve fought Isley in the first place so there's no way to actually compare them with that.

That migth be true but we can compare other things. We saw that Isley can tank much more damage on his human form that Riful can on her Awakened form.

And Helen and Deneve did say that Isley's Yoki was stronger. This is not a very good proof becaus Riful is always hiding her Yoki but I tought this was Yagi's way of telling us who was the stronger.
He had already planned to have Isley perishing and he wanted to cement the idea that Isley was the stronget AByssal One.

would have been a draw.

If we start figthing over something and I force you to run away if you don't want to die, then who won the figth?
Isley was very tired but Luciela was the one running away.

She said that if The Destroyer was stonger meaning she would sense it's potential the same way Teresa sensed Priscilla's she would have killed it. And she could have or at least she stood a chance against it. It was her last resort. I mean what did you expect going against everyone on her own?

Look, what Riful truly wanted was for The Destroyer to be a bit weaker than himself. She wanted The Destroyer to be weaker.
If The Destroyer had been weaker than Riful, then it would have been useless against Isley and Priscilla.

The idea of gathering allies was a good one but she needed one ally that was much stronger that herself but that she could control, like Isley had one.
The fact that she wanted an ally that was weaker than herself, proves that she didn't think all the way through.

On that note wasn't Riful looking for a storng Yoki sensing Claymore even before Luciela and Rafaela merged? Can't really remember but I think she was. If anyone remembers would you mind sharing?

No, she was just loking for strong Claymores to Awaken.

Isley on the other hand did exactley wat the organization wanted him to do. Go and fight the other AOs thus they would end up killing each other and they'll mop up the remains. And they did so starting with him and the AF. That wasn't really a smart move on his part since by doing this it was natural that the organization would target him first. Isley relied too much on raw power and not strategy in my oppinion. Otherwise he would have atacked the Organization and Alicia and Beth first since hew knew about them. I would imagine one would notice if his army gets wiped out by something with yoki of an AO level.

Isley's plan was very intelligent. He wanted to keep Priscilla a secret until Luciela was dead because the only chance tha they had of defeating her was for Riful and Luciela to join forces. Now we know that not even that would have worked.
And in order to ensure that his battle with the AO of the South wouldn't be interrupted, he sent his troops to the East and the West to buy him time.

After Luciela was dead, then he had already won because Riful would enver join forces with the Organization and therefore, no one could defeat Priscilla.
That way, he could destroy the Organization and Riful anytime he felt like it.

Unfortunately for him, he could not finish Lucila off and, tragedy amongst tragedies, he grew fond of both Priscilla and Raki and he stopped dreaming about world conquest. That was what caused his death, if Isley had not start thinking of Priscilla as family, if she kept on being nothing more than his superweapon, no one would ever manage to defeat

So, personally, this is how I rank the AOs.

Luciela = Riful < Alicia = Isley.

[Gattberserk]

Originally Posted by MisterJB

And, first you need to believe on Riful's readings. She also tought that 2 Abyssals could kill Priscilla and that has been proven wrong.

To be fair, She said that the only chance to defeat Priscilla would be to team up with another AO...


She only mentioned it was a chance... meaning she might have anticipated that 2 AO against Priscilla isn't sufficient as well...


Another thing is that she didnt really measure Priscilla power... Hence she was shocked at her sheer power at the last page... She didnt expect Priscilla to be this strong...

[MisterJB]

Originally Posted by Gattberserk

Another thing is that she didnt really measure Priscilla power... Hence she was shocked at her sheer power at the last page... She didnt expect Priscilla to be this strong...

Clearly, Priscilla was just trying to do this.



But she can't control her strength and Alicia lost her head.

[Ryuken]

The "familiar yoki" thing was the best bit for me and right at the end too, very Yagi like. Prissy proves yet again just how strong she is unlike before. So the big one is about to begin.

[HegemonKhan]

galatea slammed Clare's head into the ground too... !!!

it's a good thing Clare is so stubbornly thick-headed!

i swear though, i think clare's head is made out of the same material as the claymore's swords!

Dauf's hardness or Riful's doesn't even come close to Clare's skull strength!


CLARE'S ULTIMATE ATTACK:

HEADBUTT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Alleluia_Cone]

Actually, I argued that all the "Abyssal Ones" were roughly equal to each other; not that either one was stronger than the others.

I did concede, however, that Luciela did seem the less intelligent of the lot. She was never as manipulative or cunning as the other two, and she was the sole one without a long term plan to break the deadlock between the three.

So, if pressed, I would identify her as the weaker one.

Now, as for a comparison between Riful and Isley, I actually think, that when it comes down to it, Riful proved superior to Isley, because she showed herself to be more ruthless than the latter.

While Isley became attached to his new "family," which ultimately proved to be his undoing, Riful has not shown that kind of weakness yet.

And there is also something said to be said for the fact that she is the sole survivor of the group; unless you want to include Raciela.

Nevertheless, I may be inherently partial to Riful, since she, along with Galatea, is one of my two favorite characters.

But my general point is, this has nothing to do with raw power--in that regard, I really do believe that all the "Abyssal Ones" were/are equal.

So if Alicia is literally more powerful than Riful, I think she is more powerful than Luciela and Isley by proxy. If nothing else, the "Abyssal Ones" themselves back this line of argument since if either of three was definitively more powerful than the other two, they would never have been in the stalemate they were in for so many years. And I have to think that Isley at least regarded Riful as his equal since he never bothered to attack her before Priscilla despite having the more powerful ally in Rigardo (compared to Duff).

[Shiek927]

While Isley became attached to his new "family," which ultimately proved to be his undoing, Riful has not shown that kind of weakness yet.

Chapter 94, page 25 says otherwise.