[Manga] Chapter 474 Discussion

[The-Wolf-Of-Mibu]

I wish Oro was still a factor. He was a fantastic villain, and the way he got thrown aside was anti-climactic.

Kishi should have given him some more powerups so that he was still able to compete with Itachi/Sasuke.

It would add a very nice layer of complexity to the current events if in addition to Danzo's/Tobi's scheming, Orochimaru was still in the mix.

Also the whole sakura thing is not as absurd as it seems.

I don't think she would simply stand up and say to sasuke "FIGHT ME!", because he is obviously way stronger than her and she knows it.

She would probably appeal to sasuke's friendship, and try to get close to him. And when he accepts her for whatever reason, she waits for the perfect moment to K.O him

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by Slayerx

frankly, i'm still under the impression that kishi just didn't plan this all out... like everything that has to do with itachi and madara was something he made up on the fly, like sometime after the time skip, or possibly later. That's why it doesn't feel like it makes sense, is because kishi is trying to re-write what he has already written and try to make it make as much sense as possible.

I think Itachi's role was planned at the beginning, so that was a steady point of the plot. But of course all the minor plot points can be made up when the time comes, so i guess there can be a lot of minor plot holes. But the magic of shonen manga always comes to the rescue, so Kishi can always invent a new rule in a way that it seems to us that everything makes sense. It's like when we try to defend the plot and think of various reason why a certain event is not a plot hole. For example how can Sasuke survive Orochimaru's body transfer jutsu after being poisoned? Simple, let's make the whole thing a mental process like genjutsu is, and since Uchiha are excellent at genjutsu Sasuke will be able to beat Orochi. How can Orochi's seal be removed by killing Orochi? Let's just pretend that it's connected somehow to Orochimaru and lets kill Orochimaru with never before heard of magical super-items. And we can say that Orochimaru used the power of the cursed seal to generate a hydra body from Sasuke's body with his own spiritual chakra, but in the process Orochi broke his own seal so there's no more cursed seal on Sasuke, what a lucky guy, and also how smart Itachi was that he knows everything about how Orochi's cursed seal works. Or another example: how can Itachi make sure that Naruto is a good/pure hearted guy who will not kill Sasuke just because it's easier that way? Simple, with his sharingan he could analyze Naruto's mind both times he trapped Naruto in his genjutsu (remember how Itachi woke up Naruto's fears when Sakura, Sasuke, Kakashi and even Gaara grew out of Naruto's body). So it's easy to make things "logical" in a shonen manga, but what we like in all this is that it gives almost infinite possible plots, with crazy plot twists and infinite secrets and new powers.

Originally Posted by Slayerx

Even if you say it was just a facade, it still feels horribly out of character for him to use such a facade... and why was madara acting like an underling in his own organization? couldn't he just control things from that shadows; i mean Pain knew he was and that's all madara needed as he could control thing though Pain, and no one else in the organization would even have to know that there was another leader above Pain.

I think it was because of Sasuke, he wanted to see Sasuke's ability by making him fight against Deidara, and he was watching the whole time without being discovered.
Psychologically analyzing we can even say that he wanted to play a loser (that is Tobi) because he knows exactly what a loser he was, he failed so many times in his life that maybe he just wanted to forget the burden of his great goals that he is failing to achieve for almost hundred years.
The resulting plot is cool i think, since i liked Tobi's character, too bad it's gone now in the manga, but we can enjoy it in the anime episodes that air now

Originally Posted by Slayerx

Frankly, i'm thinking that Tobi started off as his own character, but then kishi changed him into madara...

When Tobi was introduced it made no sense that manga pages are filled with a weak and idiotic guy joining akatsuki. So i was sure that the new member has a secret, my assumption was that he is on the level of the then unknown leader. I think that Kishimoto made a clear hint that Tobi has a secret by making Tobi look such a fool, so he invited us to make wild guesses about Tobi's possible secrets and role in the manga.

Originally Posted by Slayerx

hell, i might even say that tobi WAS obito, but then kishi caught on that his fans were already guessing that twist and thus changed him to madara to give them something they wouldn't expect... and i'm not just saying that cause i liked the tobito thoery... certainly not

I was sure that it's a fanfiction simply because Kishi would not want to ruin Obito's "tragic hero who gave his life for his friends" image. The greatness and legend of such characters is created by their heroic death, that death is what defines or redefines their character to us, since their life is not part of the story. For example the epic death of Jiraiya would be ruined if he were resurrected by Nagato, so we can be sure he won't be resurrected ever.

[Cub-Sama]

Originally Posted by The-Wolf-Of-Mibu

I wish Oro was still a factor. He was a fantastic villain, and the way he got thrown aside was anti-climactic.

Kishi should have given him some more powerups so that he was still able to compete with Itachi/Sasuke.

It would add a very nice layer of complexity to the current events if in addition to Danzo's/Tobi's scheming, Orochimaru was still in the mix.

Also the whole sakura thing is not as absurd as it seems.

I don't think she would simply stand up and say to sasuke "FIGHT ME!", because he is obviously way stronger than her and she knows it.

She would probably appeal to sasuke's friendship, and try to get close to him. And when he accepts her for whatever reason, she waits for the perfect moment to K.O him

As for Oro's death I think it was poetic justice and appropriate, he spent his life lusting after the sharingan and the power of the Uchiha but even after all that he wasnt even able to stand against them. Its very similar to Sasuke spending his life wanting revenge on Itachi only to get him killed and find out he was trying to protect him this whole time.

Also about Sakura, why would Sasuke after sinking deeper into hatred and darkness accept Sakura's friendship who was less close to him than Naruto who he considered his best friend and still rejected

[Alleluia_Cone]

Sasuke has hijacked way too much of this story as it is. The writer needs to do a story arc almost completely related to Naruto that has nothing to do with his anguish over Sasuke. Would it kill him to do a "Naruto looking for his mother arc?" Wouldn't this, and shouldn't this, concern Naruto more than Sasuke?

Honestly, I hate how we are supposed to assume that either Naruto doesn't care about his mother, doesn't know about his mother, doesn't even realize he had a mother, etc. but at the same time he is suicidal with anguish about some conceited ninja guy that never really liked him the first place.

[Mr. Johnny 5]

Originally Posted by Alleluia_Cone

Sasuke has hijacked way too much of this story as it is. The writer needs to do a story arc almost completely related to Naruto that has nothing to do with his anguish over Sasuke. Would it kill him to do a "Naruto looking for his mother arc?" Wouldn't this, and shouldn't this, concern Naruto more than Sasuke?

Honestly, I hate how we are supposed to assume that either Naruto doesn't care about his mother, doesn't know about his mother, doesn't even realize he had a mother, etc. but at the same time he is suicidal with anguish about some conceited ninja guy that never really liked him the first place.

Thing is... up untill he met the 4th. He really didnt care about his origin.
He was hated all his life.. and during the begining of the series he started to gain their trust...after he became a genin. His bond he had with all the others already (sort of) started during his time in the academy.

So ofcourse he was happy to meet and hear that his father was Minato Namikaze (The 4th Hokage) but it really didn't motivate or drive him to find out who his mother was...since his "brother" Sasuke concerns him alot more. Ofcourse it is a good idea to do something completely unrelated to Sasuke but Naruto isn't Naruto without Sasuke (unfortunately).

[Cub-Sama]

Originally Posted by Alleluia_Cone

Sasuke has hijacked way too much of this story as it is. The writer needs to do a story arc almost completely related to Naruto that has nothing to do with his anguish over Sasuke. Would it kill him to do a "Naruto looking for his mother arc?" Wouldn't this, and shouldn't this, concern Naruto more than Sasuke?

Honestly, I hate how we are supposed to assume that either Naruto doesn't care about his mother, doesn't know about his mother, doesn't even realize he had a mother, etc. but at the same time he is suicidal with anguish about some conceited ninja guy that never really liked him the first place.

Well it is kind of hard to cut Sasuke off when the whole world of Naruto is related to the Uchiha in some way or form and Sasuke is the last Uchiha along with Madara.

However I wouldnt mind seeing filler in the actual manga like Soul Eater has a good amount of amusing and fun filler in between their crowning moments of awesome in arcs.

[Slayerx]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

I think Itachi's role was planned at the beginning, so that was a steady point of the plot.

Well, the only thing i thought was not planned was everything from the Sasuke vs itachi and onward from there; smooth sailing up to that point... including the truth of what happened to the uchiha... one thing that really throws me off about Itachi was, as i mentioned before in this thread, was how hard he drove sasuke to be consumed by hatred; particularly because he wanted sasuke to live a good and happy life in kohona... itachi should know himself that you don't need hatred to get great strength; sasuke was already on a bad path to begin with, itachi only made it worse

I think it was because of Sasuke, he wanted to see Sasuke's ability by making him fight against Deidara, and he was watching the whole time without being discovered.

Well two things... first, this still does not give him a reason to play the idiot; he wasn't exactly gonna hold back just because some random person was watching... and hell he kept up that idiot act even while sasuke wasn't around... second of all, he would not need to diecive members of his own organization just so he could watch sasuke; if madara wanted to watch and nothing more, it's not like deidara would refuse to let him... and hell, considering madara's space-time manipulation, i almost find it hard to believe that he wouldn't be able to just watch without being noticed like zetsu does

For example the epic death of Jiraiya would be ruined if he were resurrected by Nagato, so we can be sure he won't be resurrected ever.

Nah, resurrection only takes away from a death if its an ACTUAL resurrection... all nagato does is used corpses as big meat puppets... frankly, i think kishi missed the boat on that as that would have been a great phycological tactic to use... it would have been in character for Pain to do as well as having jiriaya attack you is very demoralizing and painful to watch... granted, it would have to be saved till after he knew his secret was out, as that would have helped give it away; though he could have tried to fool people into thinking jiriaya was still alive and kicking and has turned on them; again bring painful feelings

Originally Posted by Mr. Johnny 5

So ofcourse he was happy to meet and hear that his father was Minato Namikaze (The 4th Hokage) but it really didn't motivate or drive him to find out who his mother was...since his "brother" Sasuke concerns him alot more. Ofcourse it is a good idea to do something completely unrelated to Sasuke but Naruto isn't Naruto without Sasuke (unfortunately).

eh, y'know i do think he would atleast ask the question of his mother... like see if kakashi knows or something
seriously, doesn't take long to ask, and as it stands he doesn't know who she is much less if she is even still alive

but i guess it's not as important as sasuke... it can wait till some other time
Just like talking to hinata about the whole "i'm gonna die just so i can tell you i love you" thing...
they're just not important

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Alleluia_Cone

Sasuke has hijacked way too much of this story as it is. The writer needs to do a story arc almost completely related to Naruto that has nothing to do with his anguish over Sasuke. Would it kill him to do a "Naruto looking for his mother arc?" Wouldn't this, and shouldn't this, concern Naruto more than Sasuke?

Honestly, I hate how we are supposed to assume that either Naruto doesn't care about his mother, doesn't know about his mother, doesn't even realize he had a mother, etc. but at the same time he is suicidal with anguish about some conceited ninja guy that never really liked him the first place.

Naruto doesn't know his mother, has never known his mother, and possibly will never know his mother, so why should he care about her? If an orphan was in a life or death struggle for survival do you really think they will just randomly decide to ignore the immediate threats surrounding them and try to go and find information concerning a person who was never in their life and may not even exist anymore? Naruto knows about Sasuke, he has known him for years, they are almost brothers; the connection between Sasuke and Naruto is legitimate and real. Learning about your origins is nice, but only if you have the time needed to actually worry about said origins.

[Ulquiorra]

Originally Posted by Alleluia_Cone

Sasuke has hijacked way too much of this story as it is. The writer needs to do a story arc almost completely related to Naruto that has nothing to do with his anguish over Sasuke.

We just had one. It was the Pain Arc. Naruto was the star of it. We saw him react to Jiraiya's death. We saw him train with the toads. We saw him crap on everyone in Konoha and be told how he was the only one who could face Pain. We saw him find out a girl loves him and talk to his father. We saw him beat Pain. We saw him bond with Nagato. It was all about Naruto and nothing to do with Sasuke. What more could you want?

Now that he is done with the Kage Summit, I'd rather Kishi focus on other characters like Kakashi, Danzou, the Konoha 12, or Madara since I don't find Team 7 very appealing now. Each one of them has become drama queens since the Kage Summit Arc started. I want the old fun Team 7 back!

[Shining Celebi]

Itachi had to push Sasuke toward hatred so he could unlock the Mangekyou Sharingan. Sasuke wouldn't have been able to kill someone close to him (like Itachi) without hate. And Sasuke needs the Mangekyou because of Madara.

Itachi's mistake was that he thought Sasuke would end it there. He didn't realize, and had no way of knowing, that Sasuke was a "true avenger" who inherited the evil of the first son of the Sage of the Six Paths. And if we think about it, it is entirely illogical for Sasuke to do what he's doing, especially now that he knows Itachi's real motives. Sasuke is only acting this way because of the unpredictable influence of the "evil" chakra combined with Madara. Itachi couldn't have really fully anticipated it, he could have only worried that Sasuke was naive enough to be led down the wrong path by Madara.

I think this is one of the few points of the plot that was actually thought out. I think the vague idea of Itachi as a good guy was probably around from the beginning.

Now, Orochimaru, his end was just crap. This is the guy that had Kakashi shaking in fear, gave Ibiki, the hardened torture guy, the creeps, and totally owned Anko the way Itachi owned Deidara. In Part 1, Orochimaru is all godly, and in Part 2, he's just a complete embarrassment that doesn't even deserve the title of Sannin.

[SpyderSidiouss]

Originally Posted by Alleluia_Cone

Sasuke has hijacked way too much of this story as it is. The writer needs to do a story arc almost completely related to Naruto that has nothing to do with his anguish over Sasuke. Would it kill him to do a "Naruto looking for his mother arc?" Wouldn't this, and shouldn't this, concern Naruto more than Sasuke?

wow that would be so boring... imo things are really getting interesting; and its usually better if a plot involves more than just the main character. I don't see that big problem here. Lets say he finds his mother or finds out about her origin? Then what? Even better, who cares? Neither of us (the readers or naruto) know anything at all about his mother and to our knowledge shes not important in regards to... Well, anything... The way the story is going is a decent mix of the two main characters and to a lesser degree, people that are around the main characters (I'll admit I wish we seen more shika and neji, but elegantly involving everyone like that is extremely hard). I mean, things can be better, no ones perfect, but you think a "find naruto's mom" arc would be better than this? We might as well start a search for Sakura's second cousin while we're at it

Originally Posted by Alleluia_Cone

Honestly, I hate how we are supposed to assume that either Naruto doesn't care about his mother, doesn't know about his mother, doesn't even realize he had a mother, etc. but at the same time he is suicidal with anguish about some conceited ninja guy that never really liked him the first place.

Despite all the interesting developments and buildups going on, you sound strangely concerned about this guys mom... But anyway, sadly, that conceited ninja guy has had more involvement in his life than either of his parents and I guess he considers him his best friend. Naruto is the type of person that wouldn't give up on saving any of his friends, or and innocent stranger, let alone someone he considers his best friend. I don't think we should look at it as "he doesn't care about his mother"; he never knew them....

[Slayerx]

Originally Posted by Ulquiorra

We just had one. It was the Pain Arc. Naruto was the star of it.

... And that was also the last time this manga was truly epic... (though it did meh a bit at the end)
Coincidence?

though really, i would like to see focus on other characters... just not sasuke... most anyone but sasuke...

Originally Posted by Shining Celebi

Itachi had to push Sasuke toward hatred so he could unlock the Mangekyou Sharingan.

problem with that is the simple fact that it turns out itachi was able to just GIVE Sasuke the MS... so Sasuke didn't need to gain MS himself and thus did not need all that hatred...

[iBeast]

Originally Posted by Slayerx

... And that was also the last time this manga was truly epic... (though it did meh a bit at the end)
Coincidence?

though really, i would like to see focus on other characters... just not sasuke... most anyone but sasuke...


problem with that is the simple fact that it turns out itachi was able to just GIVE Sasuke the MS... so Sasuke didn't need to gain MS himself and thus did not need all that hatred...

Itachi was trying to measure Sasuke's capacity...Sasuke had to be indeed worthy...thats why throughout the fight "you've gotten stronger etc."

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Slayerx

problem with that is the simple fact that it turns out itachi was able to just GIVE Sasuke the MS... so Sasuke didn't need to gain MS himself and thus did not need all that hatred...

Itachi didn't just give the MS to Sasuke, rather Itachi provided the scenario by which Sasuke could potentially accquire a MS (Madara even helped to spur the process onward by forcing Sasuke to deal with his emotions sooner rather than later).

The MS can only be attained by sacrifice, and without the hatred, Sasuke would have never sacrificed Itachi (case and point, he could not kill Naruto when he had the chance, thus proving that Sasuke couldn't bring himself to truly sacrifice the ones he (platonically) loves without a real cause). So, by torturing Sasuke, Itachi was then able to provide a scenario by which Sasuke might eventually gain the MS (by killing Itachi).

[The-Wolf-Of-Mibu]

Originally Posted by james0246

Itachi didn't just give the MS to Sasuke, rather Itachi provided the scenario by which Sasuke could potentially accquire a MS (Madara even helped to spur the process onward by forcing Sasuke to deal with his emotions sooner rather than later).

The MS can only be attained by sacrifice, and without the hatred, Sasuke would have never sacrificed Itachi (case and point, he could not kill Naruto when he had the chance, thus proving that Sasuke couldn't bring himself to truly sacrifice the ones he (platonically) loves without a real cause). So, by torturing Sasuke, Itachi was then able to provide a scenario by which Sasuke might eventually gain the MS (by killing Itachi).

This brings up an interesting point. We had to swallow the lame deux ex machina which kishimoto pulled out of his arse in order to explain why Itachi killed his entire clan. Because he was "forced" to do so by the elders due to Uchiha's planning a rebellion.

But this makes me wonder about 2 things. Perhaps they are obvious and im just dumb, or they may have been mentioned and i just missed it.

1) How does madara end up helping Itachi? Did the elders know madara was still alive? As sasuke figured out "Even you[itachi] couldn't have killed the entire Uchiha police force by yourself". And Itachi smiles and tells him he figured it out. And we learn that Madara helped Itachi. What were the elders thinking when they gave itachi the job of going to kill the whole clan? When/why did madara enter the scene as itachi's murder assistant?

2) We know Mangekyo-Sharingan can only be achieved if you kill someone who is close to you. Sasuke's Mangekyo awakened because he killed itachi, and when he learned the truth about Itachi, at that moment itachi was his best friend, so the MS awakened. And Itachi himself had to kill shisui to get MS. So what does that say about itachi's personality?

Did he purposely killed Shisui in order to gain the MS, which would make him more evil than he is portrayed. Or did he accidentally get it? EG. maybe he confronted shisui about something like the uchiha coup and Shisui wouldn't listen to reason so Itachi killed him. Or did he purposely kill shisui because without MS he would not be able to kill his clan as per the Konoha orders?

[Slayerx]

Originally Posted by The-Wolf-Of-Mibu

1) How does madara end up helping Itachi? Did the elders know madara was still alive? As sasuke figured out "Even you[itachi] couldn't have killed the entire Uchiha police force by yourself". And Itachi smiles and tells him he figured it out. And we learn that Madara helped Itachi. What were the elders thinking when they gave itachi the job of going to kill the whole clan? When/why did madara enter the scene as itachi's murder assistant?

if i recall, Madara said that "somehow" itachi managed to figure out that he was still alive and sought him out to help him kill the uchiha... Madara wanted revenge against both kohona and the uchiha and thus agreed so that he could get his revenge on them... Though this came with the agreement that he would leave kohona alone...

granted, i recall people pointing this out before, but ya that doesn't quite make sense... for one, i don't think madara would choose to kill the uchiha and not kohona... and second of all, a war between the two would be within his interests and probably make things easier for himself in the long run for his plans.

and it does seem atleast Danzou knew about madara... in this chapter, madara says that he had not seen Danzou since the uchiha massacre. Granted, this is questionable as madara would be considered the highest level of threat... though it is possible they worked with him not knowing who he was; though that is even more questionable as they are entrusting him with a top secret mission...

2) We know Mangekyo-Sharingan can only be achieved if you kill someone who is close to you. Sasuke's Mangekyo awakened because he killed itachi, and when he learned the truth about Itachi, at that moment itachi was his best friend, so the MS awakened. And Itachi himself had to kill shisui to get MS. So what does that say about itachi's personality?

This working off of jame's post provides a problem actually... namely that you say the MS awakened in sasuke when he learned the truth about itachi... however, Itachi intended the truth to remain hidden. Meaning if THAT was the way itachi planned to give Sasuke the MS, it shows off a contradiction in itachi's plan...

Originally Posted by james0246

Itachi didn't just give the MS to Sasuke, rather Itachi provided the scenario by which Sasuke could potentially accquire a MS (Madara even helped to spur the process onward by forcing Sasuke to deal with his emotions sooner rather than later).

First off, if that truly was the case it would show how flawed itachi's plans were for sasuke... to kill somone close to him would mean killing someone from kohona... the way he drove sasuke, he came within inches of killing naruto so that he could gain the MS for himself (sasuke would never imagine that Itachi would count); had sasuke done so, it would have been impossible for him to ever live a happy life in kohona, which is what itachi had hoped for

Second of all, there's a difference between killing itachi and killing naruto... at the time, Sasuke still CARED about naruto, where as with itachi he had severed all ties and became consumed with hatred for him (killing someone you HATE is not much of a sacrifice). The only time sasuke started caring about itachi was when he found out the truth, but as i said above, that provides a contradiction in itachi's plans... in fact, if itachi really did want sasuke to gain the MS by killing by having him kill him, he should have NOT used hatred; engineer a scenerio where sasuke still retains some love for him, but at the same time makes sasuke feel he has no choice but to kill itachi; that would work better and fits in the normal scheme of making a sacrifice to gain MS

but its pretty irrelevent because, third-
Madara:"Itachi did something to you just before he died right? (sasuke recalls the forehead poke) Somehow at that last second Itachi transfered all of his eye techniques to you"

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Slayerx

First off, if that truly was the case it would show how flawed itachi's plans were for sasuke... to kill somone close to him would mean killing someone from kohona... the way he drove sasuke, he came within inches of killing naruto so that he could gain the MS for himself (sasuke would never imagine that Itachi would count); had sasuke done so, it would have been impossible for him to ever live a happy life in kohona, which is what itachi had hoped for

Itachi has the power of a seer, because he knew Sasuke wouldn't kill Naruto . Seriously though, I am not claiming that Itachi's plan was, you know, "smart", I'm just explaining what happened. Itachi delibrately played the part of the villain to "help" Sasuke, and since Sasuke wanted the devil, Itachi gave him the devil.

Originally Posted by Slayerx

Second of all, there's a difference between killing itachi and killing naruto... at the time, Sasuke still CARED about naruto, where as with itachi he had severed all ties and became consumed with hatred for him (killing someone you HATE is not much of a sacrifice). The only time sasuke started caring about itachi was when he found out the truth, but as i said above, that provides a contradiction in itachi's plans

From the data book (tora-chan's translation): "Itachi sacrificed himself, and by having his brother witness his death with his own eyes he left him the "Mangekyou Sharingan". " The data book makes it clear that Itachi planned for the eventuality that Sasuke might need MS in the future, how that correlates to what Madara says concerning Itachi not wanting Sasuke to know about Konoha's involvement is unknown (considering that Madara seems to have directly influenced Sasuke's emotionally state, causing him to gain the MS possibly prematurely (i.e. instead of Sasuke coming to the conclusion that Itachi was a sacrifice, he was lead to that conclusion by Madara)).

Originally Posted by Slayerx

and third-
Madara:"Itachi did something to you just before he died right? (referring to itachi's forehead poke) Somehow at that last second Itachi transfered all of his eye techniques to you"

And that, my friend, is what is known as a bad translation (we should know, we get quite a few in the One Piece forum). But, even if you do not trust me (and I certainly do not feel like going through the trouble of walking through the translations once again), one need only look to the data books which gave the title for the "poke" as well as the description: Tensha Fūin: Amaterasu ~ Transcription Seal: Amaterasu - "Amaterasu is a Katon-type ninjutsu of the highest rank, exclusively accessible to those who have awakened to Mangekyou Sharingan. The act of sealing that effect into someone else's sharingan is called Tensha Fuuin: Amaterasu. When the image of the specified target is reflected into the pupil the jutsu was sealed in, the seal will unbind, and "the Black Flames that devour fire itself" will swoop down on their prey!!" (a Gottheim translation, but others concur).

So, Itachi only sealed an Amaterasu into one of Sasuke's eyes. Everything else you see is completely Sasuke.

[Slayerx]

Originally Posted by james0246

Itachi has the power of a seer, because he knew Sasuke wouldn't kill Naruto . Seriously though, I am not claiming that Itachi's plan was, you know, "smart", I'm just explaining what happened. Itachi delibrately played the part of the villain to "help" Sasuke, and since Sasuke wanted the devil, Itachi gave him the devil.

From the data book (tora-chan's translation): "Itachi sacrificed himself, and by having his brother witness his death with his own eyes he left him the "Mangekyou Sharingan". " The data book makes it clear that Itachi planned for the eventuality that Sasuke might need MS in the future, how that correlates to what Madara says concerning Itachi not wanting Sasuke to know about Konoha's involvement is unknown (considering that Madara seems to have directly influenced Sasuke's emotionally state, causing him to gain the MS possibly prematurely (i.e. instead of Sasuke coming to the conclusion that Itachi was a sacrifice, he was lead to that conclusion by Madara)).

either translation error, or retcon =p

granted i still don't see how Itachi's death alone would count as MS is supposed to be obtained by killing someone you care about, not someone you HATE; so being consumed by hatred as sasuke was and itachi intended would only make the MS less likely to pop up... it does make more sense that the MS would awaken when Sasuke found out the truth, but again, that just points to a condradiction in itachi's plans


Well part of my point was trying to say that i don't think kishi planned some of this stuff ahead of time... and horribly flawed plans and what not are evidence of either bad writing or poor planning... though thanks for the databook reference... that if nothing else, atleast adjusted my reasons for my feelings on kishi's writing

[The-Wolf-Of-Mibu]

Originally Posted by Slayerx

This working off of jame's post provides a problem actually... namely that you say the MS awakened in sasuke when he learned the truth about itachi... however, Itachi intended the truth to remain hidden. Meaning if THAT was the way itachi planned to give Sasuke the MS, it shows off a contradiction in itachi's plan...

Not sure what my post had to do with Itachi *wanting* to give sasuke MS upon his death. Even if itachi never expected sasuke to learn the truth, the fact remains that before the fight with itachi, and up to the point where he learns the truth , sasuke didn't have the MS. He gained it once he learned the truth about itachi. And from what itachi said regarding how one gets MS, it would make sense it is because Itachi was now sasuke's closest friend, and he had just killed him.

I'm not saying itachi planned for sasuke to get MS that way. Merely that that is how Sasuke ended up getting it.

[Haak]

Originally Posted by The-Wolf-Of-Mibu

Did he purposely killed Shisui in order to gain the MS, which would make him more evil than he is portrayed. Or did he accidentally get it? EG. maybe he confronted shisui about something like the uchiha coup and Shisui wouldn't listen to reason so Itachi killed him. Or did he purposely kill shisui because without MS he would not be able to kill his clan as per the Konoha orders?

I thought that maybe Shisui was involved in Itachi's cause too and had Itachi kill him so Itachi could get the MS.