Gundam Seed/Seed Destiny General Discussion Thread

[CBredbeard]

Originally Posted by Aquaman OS

He had Shinn trying to kill him in both other circumstances too, and yet only when the plot and script wants to let him can he make a coherent arguement.

Athrun was at a severe disadvantage while piloting the Gouf. Not so much while piloting the IJ. I mean, really, watch the scene again. Every time Athrun tried to open his mouth, Rey would take a swing at him and tell him to shut up. And it makes perfect sense that Rey would behave as he did.

So stop saying that Athrun acted like an idiot during that scene. He did the best anyone could have done.

[Rising Dragon]

No, I'm with Aqua on this. Too often in Destiny they made the characters idiots to get past whatever plot point was in effect. Athrun, Lunamaria, and Kira all suffered it, especially Kira.

[CBredbeard]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

No, I'm with Aqua on this. Too often in Destiny they made the characters idiots to get past whatever plot point was in effect. Athrun, Lunamaria, and Kira all suffered it, especially Kira.

It was a good scene. No one was an idiot.

[Aquaman OS]

That was not at at all a good scene. Even without the dialogue. And if Athrun had time to get out his "Rey and the chairman want to destroy the whole world!" line, he could have easily just said "I was set up Shinn!" Done. Gets his point across and if Shinn still takes him down at least Athrun didn't waste his breath with some kind of crazy speech.

That's not even counting the Gouf getting stabbed in the cockpit and both surviving, or Kisaka just happening to pop up after being gone all season just to rescue them. (Why was he with the EA? What was he doing there? Nobody knows. Him being there was just a plot convience so he'd be there to rescue Athrun and is never spoken of again) At least Kira's suvival was a stretch but understandable. Freedom's cockpit was higher up and we knew AA was in the area to save him.

I was glad Athrun finally got away from Zaft. But it was in the most contrived manner possible. And just set up more plot convieniences. Oh look Athrun's all beat up so the AA will be sympathetic from the start and not call him out for willingly siding against them earlier. And he's injured, so only Kira can go into space to save Lacus and get SF and nobody will be able to pilot in time to Zaft from invading Orb.

[monster]

Originally Posted by Aquaman OS

That was not at at all a good scene. Even without the dialogue. And if Athrun had time to get out his "Rey and the chairman want to destroy the whole world!" line, he could have easily just said "I was set up Shinn!" Done. Gets his point across and if Shinn still takes him down at least Athrun didn't waste his breath with some kind of crazy speech.

He couldn't say he was set up because he wasn't. He attacked his fellow soldiers, stole government equipment, and deserted. So he's not going to bother trying to defend himself when he is guilty of those things. Instead, he did get to the point of why he can no longer follow the Chairman.

That's not even counting the Gouf getting stabbed in the cockpit and both surviving, or Kisaka just happening to pop up after being gone all season just to rescue them. (Why was he with the EA? What was he doing there? Nobody knows. Him being there was just a plot convience so he'd be there to rescue Athrun and is never spoken of again) At least Kira's suvival was a stretch but understandable. Freedom's cockpit was higher up and we knew AA was in the area to save him.

The Gouf's cockpit was lower than the stab area and we also knew that Kisaka was in the area. As for why he's there, well Durandal did call out for the people to join together to fight LOGOS.

I was glad Athrun finally got away from Zaft. But it was in the most contrived manner possible. And just set up more plot convieniences. Oh look Athrun's all beat up so the AA will be sympathetic from the start and not call him out for willingly siding against them earlier. And he's injured, so only Kira can go into space to save Lacus and get SF and nobody will be able to pilot in time to Zaft from invading Orb.

Even if Athrun wasn't injured, there was only one booster anyway.

[CBredbeard]

Originally Posted by Aquaman OS

That was not at at all a good scene. Even without the dialogue. And if Athrun had time to get out his "Rey and the chairman want to destroy the whole world!" line, he could have easily just said "I was set up Shinn!" Done. Gets his point across and if Shinn still takes him down at least Athrun didn't waste his breath with some kind of crazy speech.

Athrun didn't make a speech. He barely said anything. He wasn't able to say anything.

That's not even counting the Gouf getting stabbed in the cockpit and both surviving, or Kisaka just happening to pop up after being gone all season just to rescue them. (Why was he with the EA? What was he doing there? Nobody knows. Him being there was just a plot convience so he'd be there to rescue Athrun and is never spoken of again) At least Kira's suvival was a stretch but understandable. Freedom's cockpit was higher up and we knew AA was in the area to save him.

None of that has characters acting like idiots though.

I was glad Athrun finally got away from Zaft. But it was in the most contrived manner possible. And just set up more plot convieniences. Oh look Athrun's all beat up so the AA will be sympathetic from the start and not call him out for willingly siding against them earlier. And he's injured, so only Kira can go into space to save Lacus and get SF and nobody will be able to pilot in time to Zaft from invading Orb.

They only had the ability to send one mobile suit into space. Even if Athrun were fit as a fiddle, it'd be a toss up. And I doubt anyone would have held a grudge against Athrun. Frankly, if they were willing to give Cagalli the kid gloves treatment (considering just how big a fuck up she made)...or Mu for that matter and everything he'd done in Europe, Athrun fighting for Zaft was the least controversial thing anyone in the series had done.

[Fireminer]

I always wonder how did they roll out the Dagger and Astray so fast. It isn't like they could use raw data from Strike and the Astray prototypes without processing it first. Even if Dagger and Astray's frames are just simplified versions of the prototypes. So that mean all the data in the pre-production phase is just for tweaks?

[monster]

Originally Posted by Fireminer

I always wonder how did they roll out the Dagger and Astray so fast. It isn't like they could use raw data from Strike and the Astray prototypes without processing it first. Even if Dagger and Astray's frames are just simplified versions of the prototypes. So that mean all the data in the pre-production phase is just for tweaks?

The project actually started in July of C.E. 70. The Strike Daggers and the M1 Astrays were deployed for the first time in May and June of C.E. 71, respectively. While the main development was done at Heliopolis, information were most like sent back to headquarters during that time. Then, after Heliopolis was destroyed in January of C.E. 71, they could use what they've already gained to mass produce a simpler design.

[Fireminer]

How many M1 Astray were presented at ORB again? The first batch after Kira calibered the OS?

[monster]

Originally Posted by Fireminer

How many M1 Astray were presented at ORB again? The first batch after Kira calibered the OS?

I don't know if there's any solid number on this.

[Fireminer]

Hmm...Just want to know how fast is the whole production process. As I remember it, Zeon in three months could produced less or only a bit more than 200 Gelgoog.

[monster]

Originally Posted by Fireminer

Hmm...Just want to know how fast is the whole production process. As I remember it, Zeon in three months could produced less or only a bit more than 200 Gelgoog.

For U.C., the Earth Federation Forces apparently started mass producing mobile suits in October of U.C. 0079. By the end of December, they had won the war.

For C.E., I don't know when the AF and Orb started mass production of mobile suits, only that that they were ready to be deployed 4-5 months after the Heliopolis was destroyed.

[PzIVf3]

I agree Aqua and Rising Dragon. We can blame the poor script writer for making characters immature.

Come to think of it Athrun should be arrested long time ago. Isnt that Luna taking photo to provide intelligent to track down terrorist group?

[monster]

Originally Posted by PzIVf3

I agree Aqua and Rising Dragon. We can blame the poor script writer for making characters immature.

Come to think of it Athrun should be arrested long time ago. Isnt that Luna taking photo to provide intelligent to track down terrorist group?

What do you mean?

[Gundamx]

Originally Posted by PzIVf3

Come to think of it Athrun should be arrested long time ago. Isnt that Luna taking photo to provide intelligent to track down terrorist group?

not really,
1- he didn't give them any secret info neither help them, actually he was trying to help ZAFT by asking them to leave the battlefield

2-she find proof that their lacus was fake (her leader was out right lier= can't used it court without altering the info)

3-basically it was Durandal making sure that his black sheet stay hiding.
after all he try to kill real lacus (Idol and leader of one of strongest military faction don't to mention she was love by PLANTs civilian)
(it's like one of Republican/Democrat try to kill one of biggest Democrat/Republican opponent because he can change civilian opinion and have power to back his word -> yes Lacus from same country as Durandal )

4-you can't have terrorist group with country leader on board don't to mention that
+
they are more like private army

[Aquaman OS]

Originally Posted by PzIVf3

I agree Aqua and Rising Dragon. We can blame the poor script writer for making characters immature.

Come to think of it Athrun should be arrested long time ago. Isnt that Luna taking photo to provide intelligent to track down terrorist group?

That at least was addressed in series. Luna was tailing him to make sure Athrun was still on their side. And he was in that coversation, as he defended Zaft and told Kira and Cagalli to stop interfereing with them. So Talia was satisfied he could be trusted because Luna brought back an audio recording of that.

Durandal just later used the photos of out context, ignoring the report and audio tape, to set Athrun up after he'd decided he wanted Athrun out of the picture because he wasn't playing the game. Something that, had he used the full info, he'd have to let Athrun off on, because there was no standing order to attack AA until 10 episodes after that meeting, and he can't hold it against Athrun for being diplomatic and non hostile to even an enemy force when he was on his own in their territory.

The bad writing kicks in because Luna buys the "Athrun was selling us out to Logos and the pictures prove it" hook link and sinker even though she took those photos herself and should have known that wasn't the case. Talia gets a pass because it looks like she doesn't really believe Durandal but due to fear and feeling she's come to far in service she has no choice but to keep following his path.

[CBredbeard]

Did she think that maybe he was selling ZAFT out because of his friendship with Archangel's crew? He wasn't happy with Angel Down and Kira's alleged death which is why Durandal wanted him out of the picture in the first place.

Pinning a revenge motive on Athrun wouldn't have been hard at that point, because he was truly angry and disillusioned by it.

[Aquaman OS]

But she knows he wasn't because she heard (and recorded) the entire conversation and knows he wasn't doing any selling out. She knows exactly what Athrun said which was in short "Stop attacking us. We're the good guys. I trust the chairman."

That meeting happened way before Angel down. And they all know this because again LUNA WAS THERE and because they all think Kira's dead.

She knows there was no conspiring because she knows what was said. She knows he didn't even sneak off because he specifically told Talia where he was going.

[S.Freedom]

Only the Archangel wasn't in any way, shape or form associated with LOGOS. Which she'd know because she heard most if not all of the conversation between Athrun/Kira. And the implication that Orb was connected to LOGOS wasn't really brought up until an episode or two after Athrun's defection.

If anything she should have thought he was returning to Orb/Archangel/Cagali. And while I get her emotions over Meyrin's "death" clouded her reasoning abilities. There's no reason after the initial shock for her not to remember her spying on Athrun much less wanting to ask Shinn/Rey about the whole Lacus/Meer thing.

[weirdguy]

Originally Posted by S.Freedom

Only the Archangel wasn't in any way, shape or form associated with LOGOS. Which she'd know because she heard most if not all of the conversation between Athrun/Kira. And the implication that Orb was connected to LOGOS wasn't really brought up until an episode or two after Athrun's defection.

If anything she should have thought he was returning to Orb/Archangel/Cagali. And while I get her emotions over Meyrin's "death" clouded her reasoning abilities. There's no reason after the initial shock for her not to remember her spying on Athrun much less wanting to ask Shinn/Rey about the whole Lacus/Meer thing.

Regarding about Luna's spying mission, whe was told to forget every detail of it. Even if she brought it up to Rey and Shinn, Rey will just talk her out of it.