Character Discussion - Kallen

[Lunara]

Depends how far in time the movie, ova, etc. goes. Well if it's like a year after Lelouch's death, then Kallen would probably be enjoying her life as it is, but will still remember Lelouch very dearly.

[linkinstreet]

She'd be this kick ass doctor. Heck, I'd imagine her to be more like Yomako Readman (aka Yoko) of Gurren Lagann

[Inferno Phoenyx]

Originally Posted by linkinstreet

She'd be this kick ass doctor. Heck, I'd imagine her to be more like Yomako Readman (aka Yoko) of Gurren Lagann

That's what I imagined her as! xD
Idk, it would be pretty cool for another epilogue of Kallen.

[Levy]

Originally Posted by Frostfire

There is no unique role for C.C. as a shield, nor for Suzaku as a sword. They simply replaced Kallen, and were beaten by her.

I think you are giving Lelouch - as usual - too much importance. When both Suzaku and Karen begin their fight, Lelouch was enjoying his comfortable life in Ashford, dead to his true soul, and not chosing any side.
When Karen faced Suzaku, she was fighting for herself, not only for Lelouch, or for her pride to be Lelouch's Knight, even if she loves Lelouch and she's so conflicted about him. What she decided to stand up for his her cause, there, and she stand up against Suzaku because Karen and Suzaku have always been the two opposites sides of the same medal. Dealing with Lelouch -both with his plans and privately - brought them to te extreme consequences of their collision of ideals and choices of life, but 'Suzaku VS Karen' is something that has a meaning also by itself, not only because of Lelouch.

About CC I've not really much to say, to none's surprise I basically agree with Nogitsune.

[linkinstreet]

Originally Posted by Levy

I think you are giving Lelouch - as usual - too much importance. When both Suzaku and Karen begin their fight, Lelouch was enjoying his comfortable life in Ashford, dead to his true soul, and not chosing any side.
When Karen faced Suzaku, she was fighting for herself, not only for Lelouch, or for her pride to be Lelouch's Knight, even if she loves Lelouch and she's so conflicted about him. What she decided to stand up for his her cause, there, and she stand up against Suzaku because Karen and Suzaku have always been the two opposites sides of the same medal. Dealing with Lelouch -both with his plans and privately - brought them to te extreme consequences of their collision of ideals and choices of life, but 'Suzaku VS Karen' is something that has a meaning also by itself, not only because of Lelouch.

About CC I've not really much to say, to none's surprise I basically agree with Nogitsune.

Well you can say for the last fight, it's more that she was pissed off Lelouch picked spinzaku instead of her for his personal knight.

[bladeofdarkness]

she didnt seem to express any hostility based on that
she was out to stop lelouch after he basiclly started to act like a monster
and suzaku was standing in her way (as was C.C)
her talk with him was basiclly about why he and lelouch are wrong in their actions and way of thinking
at that point it would be dumb to be angry that lelouch picked suzaku as his knight when the whole point was that she was out to stop lelouch

[yvj]

Originally Posted by linkinstreet

Well you can say for the last fight, it's more that she was pissed off Lelouch picked spinzaku instead of her for his personal knight.

That's part of the reason. A small part of it was that Lelouch chose to open up to C.C and someone who has been trying to kill him for most of the series (Suzaku) instead of her.

That's the "Love, Love Kallen" part

But the crux of her actions were based on "Lioness Kallen" fighting for her ideals.

Though you can argue it's really an equal split and that she cared so much she felt it was her duty to stop Lelouch with her own hands.

[Levy]

Originally Posted by yvj

But the crux of her actions were based on "Lioness Kallen" fighting for her ideals.

When it comes to Suzaku, I think it's more this. Lelouch is certainly a very relevant, but still just one of the elements of the picture that put Karen and Suzaku against each other.

[bladeofdarkness]

she didnt seek out suzaku
she was after lelouch from the start (she freaking broke into the avalon to get to him
suzaku was in her way
she did say that its time to settle things in ep 24
but right after that she tells him that she always believed that even if their metodes differed he did what he did for japan
she didnt deceide that there is no other way but to fight him until he made her think that he was really only after more power

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

but right after that she tells him that she always believed that even if their metodes differed he did what he did for japan
she didnt deceide that there is no other way but to fight him until he made her think that he was really only after more power

But that happened almost automatically when Lelouch convinced her that he was just an evil tyrant bent on world domination.
From her point of view, Suzaku was supporting a monster, which means she inevitably had to fight him sooner or later; because even if she had managed to get past him and just kill Lelouch, his Knight of Zero would still have been a threat.

Oh, and I completely agree with Levy, but I guess that's no suprise. xD

[Lie]

Originally Posted by Nogitsune

But that happened almost automatically when Lelouch convinced her that he was just an evil tyrant bent on world domination.
From her point of view, Suzaku was supporting a monster, which means she inevitably had to fight him sooner or later; because even if she had managed to get past him and just kill Lelouch, his Knight of Zero would still have been a threat.

Oh, and I completely agree with Levy, but I guess that's no suprise. xD

Cut of the snakes head and the body will eventually die.
Without Lelouch commanding, without an army, Suzaku becomes a minor annoyance. He is a single soldier, no matter how powerful, there are more than enough other soldiers to best him.

[Levy]

I doubth that any of the BK, altought skilled, could match with Albion and Suzaku's skills, but anyway, I was thinking of a more general aspect of Suzaku VS Karen - the fact that their different routes in life put them against each other from long before the ZR.

Karen did not went specifically after Suzaku, but in the moment she had to fight him, it's a lifetime of opposing each other that came up with that fight - and at least to me the dialogue made it pretty obvious. ZR is just a part of that story.

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by Levy

I doubth that any of the BK, altought skilled, could match with Albion and Suzaku's skills, but anyway, I was thinking of a more general aspect of Suzaku VS Karen - the fact that their different routes in life put them against each other from long before the ZR.

Karen did not went specifically after Suzaku, but in the moment she had to fight him, it's a lifetime of opposing each other that came up with that fight - and at least to me the dialogue made it pretty obvious. ZR is just a part of that story.

I agree!
...Oh, wait. I guess that was obvious. xD
But I think it's really interesting how things developed for those two. Both wanted the best for their people and had such a long way to go, and yet they viewed the world so very differently.

[demon_god04]

Originally Posted by Levy

I doubth that any of the BK, altought skilled, could match with Albion and Suzaku's skills, but anyway, I was thinking of a more general aspect of Suzaku VS Karen - the fact that their different routes in life put them against each other from long before the ZR.

Karen did not went specifically after Suzaku, but in the moment she had to fight him, it's a lifetime of opposing each other that came up with that fight - and at least to me the dialogue made it pretty obvious. ZR is just a part of that story.

First off, Suzaku is one man, no matter how powerful his machine and his abilities are there are limits that both cannot surpass. He can't fight continuously without pause for rest, his machine cannot run indefinitely without supplies and maintenance.

Now to the bolded part. Their different routes in life put them against each other? Since you brought up the dialogue, personally at least I thought that she was talking how they were both working towards the same goal, despite being on opposing sides. Much like the contrast of Lelouch and Suzaku from the start, Kallen and Suzaku were basically on the same side in what they wanted for Japan, only that they came at the problem from different standpoints as well as different standpoints regarding nationalism. So no, I'd have to disagree that they were "against" each other from the get go, more like a rivalry of their mecha and ideology.

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by demon_god04

First off, Suzaku is one man, no matter how powerful his machine and his abilities are there are limits that both cannot surpass. He can't fight continuously without pause for rest, his machine cannot run indefinitely without supplies and maintenance.

No, but he would still have been a threat.
He could have found someone else to support him, he could have killed important people, he could have had the key for an ultimate weapon created by Lelouch and Nina.
Of course he had limits, but no one could have felt save with him around if they thought him a powerhungry monster.

Now to the bolded part. Their different routes in life put them against each other? Since you brought up the dialogue, personally at least I thought that she was talking how they were both working towards the same goal, despite being on opposing sides. Much like the contrast of Lelouch and Suzaku from the start, Kallen and Suzaku were basically on the same side in what they wanted for Japan, only that they came at the problem from different standpoints as well as different standpoints regarding nationalism. So no, I'd have to disagree that they were "against" each other from the get go, more like a rivalry of their mecha and ideology.

Well, rivals can be against each other.
Kallen was a terrorist, Suzaku was fighting for the very empire she wanted to get rid of. They may not have hated each other, but they were more or less standing in each other's way from the very start and could have killed each other any time, be it on purpose or by accident.
Hell, Kallen even tried to assassinate him in the first season.
Kallen was on the side of Japan, Suzaku tried to protect people in general, and that alone wouldn't have put them against each other, no. But they were also a terrorist/member of the Black Knights and a Britannian soldier/pilot of the Lancelot.
Until Zero Requiem, Lelouch and Suzaku, too, fought on different sides. Yes, they wanted the same thing and weren't always deliberately trying to kill each other, but they were still inevitably "enemies" on the battlefield - at first without even realizing it.

[demon_god04]

Originally Posted by Nogitsune

No, but he would still have been a threat.
He could have found someone else to support him, he could have killed important people, he could have had the key for an ultimate weapon created by Lelouch and Nina.
Of course he had limits, but no one could have felt save with him around if they thought him a powerhungry monster.

The entire world was against Lelouch, if Lelouch lost, well that was it. There is no one he can find to back him, nor can there be one that could even hope to measure up to the task, which is a point the series pretty much hammers into you. The point is that Suzaku is just one soldier, someone who only knows how to fight and despite being damned good at it, will not allow him to fight the world.

Well, rivals can be against each other.
Kallen was a terrorist, Suzaku was fighting for the very empire she wanted to get rid of. They may not have hated each other, but they were more or less standing in each other's way from the very start and could have killed each other any time, be it on purpose or by accident.
Hell, Kallen even tried to assassinate him in the first season.
Kallen was on the side of Japan, Suzaku tried to protect people in general, and that alone wouldn't have put them against each other, no. But they were also a terrorist/member of the Black Knights and a Britannian soldier/pilot of the Lancelot.
Until Zero Requiem, Lelouch and Suzaku, too, fought on different sides. Yes, they wanted the same thing and weren't always deliberately trying to kill each other, but they were still inevitably "enemies" on the battlefield - at first without even realizing it.

They are not so much against each other as their ideology is. They are not against each other as I said from the get go, they were working towards the same goal. So they are not so much working against each other as basically running towards the same point using different routes that converge with each other at certain points. Hell Suzaku even kept it secret that she was in the Black Knights and they agreed to act like nothing while at school when she found out she was Zero's body guard and Gurren's pilot.

And Kallen tried to assassinate Suzaku for Lelouch (or rather Zero at the time) not because he was in her way.

As for Lelouch and Suzaku it was not that they were on different sides that drive them to regard each other as enemies, it was the Euphie incident that did that and the subsequent rampage and events that followed that drove them to be enemies.

[linkinstreet]

That and jealousy lol

[Levy]

Originally Posted by demon_god04

They are not so much against each other as their ideology is. They are not against each other as I said from the get go, they were working towards the same goal. So they are not so much working against each other as basically running towards the same point using different routes that converge with each other at certain points.

But this is my point also. Call it "different" or "conflicting" routes is not so crucial in the end, what I wanted to stress is that Karen and Suzaku have something to 'argue'- to say it in a very inappropriate way but it's early morning and I'm sleepy =.= - that is not limited to be Leouch's more trusted soldier and favourite weapon, moreover when Suzaku throw apparently all his old self away in the ZR, and that's all.

And, yes, they are natural rivals in the battlefield because - moreover with Seiten and Albion - they are the only real match for each other and everybody knows, them included.

[dec4rhapsody]

Hmm, I've got another nick for Kallen, ??-tan.
LOL~

[Lolipopo]

Originally Posted by dec4rhapsody

Hmm, I've got another nick for Kallen, ??-tan.
LOL~

Give it to us :P

We already got : Q1, Crimson Lotus, Ace, Badass mother *off*...we need more.