(L+CR) Overlord Season 3

[eiyuuou]

Brain isn't a hero. he is a merc who kills to make a living.
Death Spreading Brigade main job is raiding in times of peace, including attacking, raping and ransoming their victims. until they met their end with shaltear in S1.
By Metaneo's standards, it is entirely acceptable to rape, kill and kidnap people.

No one is demanding Ainz to act morally, we all knew he was evil from the get go. The issue arose with some people insisting Ainz was in the right for all the evil things he was doing.

on the contrary. read previous posts.

[Endscape]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

That is, unless you think heroism means Human supremacy, the extermination of all non-humans, and legal enslavement of elves.

This is simply not true. There are plenty of characters in Overlord that are heroic, and stand for none of those things.

Blue Rose have literally defended demihuman villages against Slaine Theocracy attack.

There are characters like Climb and Gazef who are willing to put others before themselves and do the right thing even if they could die doing it.

Ainz is taking charge because somebody had to.

Ainz is taking charge because Demiurge low-key per pressured him into doing so. Don't ascribe values to him that aren't actually there.

[Rnzlr]

This thread never ceases to amaze me. Now Brain became a hero. What's next?

[AC-Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Rnzlr

This thread never ceases to amaze me. Now Brain became a hero. What's next?

He is imho more of an Anti-hero, but if there is ever supposed to be a new-world non player hero group fighting Ainz it's likely he'll be part of it.
There is actually a whole bunch of characters that are considered heroes that didn't exactly start out as such.

Take the elder scrolls series for example where you start out as some sort of prisoner in almost every installment.
It's a rare form of character development that has gained popularity recently.

Hero to villain is really just the more common one.

[Endscape]

Originally Posted by Rnzlr

This thread never ceases to amaze me. Now Brain became a hero. What's next?

I'd honestly be OK with calling Brain a hero. He didn't start out that way, of course, but through out the course of the series, he's evolved into a good person, someone that is worthy to be a hero.

[Metaneo]

Originally Posted by Fwarlord

What did they do to deserve the title "hero" anyway? One of them recently committed suicide because of his false sense of loyalty, one is a deluded kid who knows nothing about the world, let alone the liege he serves, another is a literal bandit who lived in cave where they kept females as sex slaves. The rest are biased and racist human supremacists who would attack anything non-human on sight just because of their race.

Gazef's sense of loyalty was in no way false, he kept to his ideals and stayed loyal to the man he served, who by the way, was a good person, he made for a poor king, but a good person. Also no, Gazef did not commit suicide against Ainz, at the very least, that's not what he was planning. Did you even watch the episode? Gazef challenged Ainz there with Brain and Climb present for a reason. He was hoping for them to see the duel and learn something, anything about Ainz that might be used against him. And yes, they DID learn something. Climb's shortcomings do NOT make him less heroic, and Brain's past, terrible as it is, does not detract from the person he is trying to become.

Originally Posted by Fwarlord

But does heroism holds any meaning if there is no power to enforce it? I mean do you see any hero epic where the hero is a weakling who can't do anything?

Spoiler for One Punch:

Mumen Rider. Someone powerless can inspire those with power, but unsure of when/how to use it.

Originally Posted by eiyuuou

Brain isn't a hero. he is a merc who kills to make a living. Death Spreading Brigade main job is raiding in times of peace, including attacking, raping and ransoming their victims.

Every Saint has a past, Every Sinner has a future. I condone Brain's past actions no more than I condone Ainz' present ones. Brain was desperate for power and cast off all morals and everything he held dear for power, and in the end, it made him weaker. He would have failed Sebas' test in S2 whereas the weaker Climb succeeded

Originally Posted by eiyuuou

By Metaneo's standards, it is entirely acceptable to rape, kill and kidnap people.

By my standards people like you who press their own interpretations as facts with nothing to back them up wouldn't be allowed near a computer.

[Fwarlord]

Originally Posted by Metaneo

Gazef's sense of loyalty was in no way false, he kept to his ideals and stayed loyal to the man he served, who by the way, was a good person, he made for a poor king, but a good person.

A man who caused countless meaningless deaths because of his hesitation to act could be considered a good person? Well, it is debatable at best. But he definitely isn't a good ruler who deserves his subjects' loyalty. He fails at ruling his own kingdom and lets the nobles possess too much power, he can't even decide his own successor even though he realizes his first son is a fool who should never be anywhere near the throne.

Also no, Gazef did not commit suicide against Ainz, at the very least, that's not what he was planning. Did you even watch the episode? Gazef challenged Ainz there with Brain and Climb present for a reason. He was hoping for them to see the duel and learn something, anything about Ainz that might be used against him. And yes, they DID learn something.

And what did they learn anyway? Except that Gazef fell to death on his own in a very funny style? His death achieved nothing, he chose it on his own even though he could live on and do more meaningful things. It means he committed suicide.

Climb's shortcomings do NOT make him less heroic become.

Somehow I can convince myself to accept the idea that a manipulated pawn could be considered a hero.

and Brain's past, terrible as it is, does not detract from the person he is trying to

So you agree with my argument? That as long as Ainz pursuits the noble goal of establishing an utopia for all, all of his misdeeds, if there is any at all, could be dismiss and he is a legitimate hero?

Mumen Rider. Someone powerless can inspire those with power, but unsure of when/how to use it.

It means there must still be a power to enforce his ideal of heroism. He just doesn't use his own, but other's through proxy. Let's face the truth, no power means no heroism.

[blakstealth]

[Metaneo]

Originally Posted by Fwarlord

A man who caused countless meaningless deaths because of his hesitation to act could be considered a good person? Well, it is debatable at best. But he definitely isn't a good ruler who deserves his subjects' loyalty. He fails at ruling his own kingdom and lets the nobles possess too much power, he can't even decide his own successor even though he realizes his first son is a fool who should never be anywhere near the throne.

I literally said he wasn't a good King. None of what you describes makes him a bad person in the least.

Originally Posted by Fwarlord

And what did they learn anyway? Except that Gazef fell to death on his own in a very funny style? His death achieved nothing, he chose it on his own even though he could live on and do more meaningful things. It means he committed suicide.

Gazef's plan failed because he didnt know Ainz had a Time Stop spell, however, while Brain and Climb couldnt make any sense of what they saw, they could always relay said info to an actual spell caster. Seeing Gazef fall to his death on his own is evidence enough to a knowledgeable spell caster that a Time Stop spell was cast. There's also other info I could tell you, but it might be considered spoiler territory.

Originally Posted by Fwarlord

Somehow I can convince myself to accept the idea that a manipulated pawn could be considered a hero.

Yes, I understand the age old saying "The Path to Hell is Paved with Good Intentions," but as manipulated as he is, his actions in and of themselves are Heroic. Climb has done nothing wrong and actively stands up for what he believes is right and just. His manipulator's intentions may not be in the right place but that doesnt apply to the actions Climb chooses to make when not under her orders.

Originally Posted by Fwarlord

So you agree with my argument? That as long as Ainz pursuits the noble goal of establishing an utopia for all, all of his misdeeds, if there is any at all, could be dismiss and he is a legitimate hero?

Except there's a massive difference between the two. Brain got his lifestyle shoved in his face, saw his mistakes and is trying to better himself. Ainz's actions are determined by layers of superficial acting, self doubt, and fear. Before I finish this I'd like to say this first, I do not consider Ainz a Hero nor his actions Heroic nor do I believe his means justify the ends if he DOES create his fair and good Utopia. What Ainz does is based off of 3 things; What makes him look good to his subordinates, because he's afraid of not being a proper lord to them. The combination of his Undead species AND his former human nature. And most important, What would make him look bad to his former guild-mates. If he didnt think a lot of things would be considered too extreme to his former companions, things would be A LOT more brutal.

Originally Posted by Fwarlord

It means there must still be a power to enforce his ideal of heroism. He just doesn't use his own, but other's through proxy. Let's face the truth, no power means no heroism.

Spoiler for One Punch:

Except in Mumen's case, what I said second doesnt apply to his situation. It was Mumen's complete and total lack of power that allowed him to be a hero. It was the fact that he was completely powerless that allowed him to save lives.

[Sixth]

Originally Posted by Rnzlr

This thread never ceases to amaze me. Now Brain became a hero. What's next?

Better than Ainz being a benevolent person.

Brain realized his shortcoming and now he is trying to better himself up.

[moridin84]

You guys should certainly read the online novel https://practicalguidetoevil.wordpress.com/ if you haven't already.

The main character ends up working as a "villain" for a benevolent evil empire. Although they never claim to be anything but evil so maybe that won't appeal.

Originally Posted by kari-no-sugata II

First thought that came to mind on reading this is: Oda Nobunaga.

Of course, it hasn't happened yet in Ainz's case, which is a problem I have some portrayals of Ainz: how reasonable is it to credit him with things he hasn't achieved yet?

...


Oda Nobunaga is generally considered to be a villain though.

Well this does sound like something Ainz would do

Beginning on September 29, Nobunaga's men attacked the town of Sakamoto at the base of the mountain before moving up towards the Tendai temples. He then destroyed the Hiyoshi shrine honoring the kami of the mountain, Sannō. Nobunaga's massive force encircled the mountain and gradually moved upwards, killing and destroying anyone or anything in their way. Eventually, they made their way to Enryaku-ji, the powerful and famous temple at the summit, which was razed to the ground. His arquebusiers then formed search parties and eliminated anyone who had previously escaped their attack.[2]

George Sansom states, "The whole mountainside was a great slaughterhouse, and the sight was one of unbearable horror."[3]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Mount_Hiei

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

I do wonder; how would one start to ban slavery in the New World, if they want to do it as a hero?

One thing that was brought up in other places, was that modern Isekai stories almost NEVER ban slavery. The alleged hero may buy and free a slave or two, but slavery itself is just assumed to be something that can't be fought. That it is out of the hero's hands.

Yes, Reener tried to ban slavery in her nation, but it was still happening. And her nation was about to be destroyed by Empire and Theocracy, neither ban slavery as long as only Elves are enslaved.

I guess what I am saying, is that slavery can only be combated by actual military might and subjugation of peoples. People needed to be forced against their will to stop keeping slaves. And the traditional "Hero", could never do such a thing.

[Metaneo]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

I do wonder; how would one start to ban slavery in the New World, if they want to do it as a hero?

One thing that was brought up in other places, was that modern Isekai stories almost NEVER ban slavery. The alleged hero may buy and free a slave or two, but slavery itself is just assumed to be something that can't be fought. That it is out of the hero's hands.

Yes, Reener tried to ban slavery in her nation, but it was still happening. And her nation was about to be destroyed by Empire and Theocracy, neither ban slavery as long as only Elves are enslaved.

I guess what I am saying, is that slavery can only be combated by actual military might and subjugation of peoples. People needed to be forced against their will to stop keeping slaves. And the traditional "Hero", could never do such a thing.

Banning slavery for Ainz would be simple, his word would be law and anyone who goes against it would die/suffer horribly, examples would be made, and given enough time, slavery not being around would become the norm.

And probably the reason why most Isekai stories contain slavery is because it makes sense given how most settings resemble our own world about 500 - 600 years ago. I mean yeah, the author could just not include slavery in the narrative and it could fit just fine, but honestly, humans love enslaving each other for little reasons other than it's cheap, effective labor. And when you include sentient races that arent human, we would probably have tried to enslave them if they existed in our world as well.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

I do wonder; how would one start to ban slavery in the New World, if they want to do it as a hero?

One thing that was brought up in other places, was that modern Isekai stories almost NEVER ban slavery. The alleged hero may buy and free a slave or two, but slavery itself is just assumed to be something that can't be fought. That it is out of the hero's hands.

Yes, Reener tried to ban slavery in her nation, but it was still happening. And her nation was about to be destroyed by Empire and Theocracy, neither ban slavery as long as only Elves are enslaved.

I guess what I am saying, is that slavery can only be combated by actual military might and subjugation of peoples. People needed to be forced against their will to stop keeping slaves. And the traditional "Hero", could never do such a thing.

Is that so? Is it really? Is that how slavery fell out of favor in our countries?

[Metaneo]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Is that so? Is it really? Is that how slavery fell out of favor in our countries?

We fought an entire war over slavery in the US, can't speak for other countries though.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Metaneo

We fought an entire war over slavery in the US, can't speak for other countries though.

Slavery was on its way out in the US and it was its death throes. I mean, why did the North go for the ban in the first place? They weren't forced at gun point.

[moridin84]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

I do wonder; how would one start to ban slavery in the New World, if they want to do it as a hero?

One thing that was brought up in other places, was that modern Isekai stories almost NEVER ban slavery. The alleged hero may buy and free a slave or two, but slavery itself is just assumed to be something that can't be fought. That it is out of the hero's hands.

Yes, Reener tried to ban slavery in her nation, but it was still happening. And her nation was about to be destroyed by Empire and Theocracy, neither ban slavery as long as only Elves are enslaved.

I guess what I am saying, is that slavery can only be combated by actual military might and subjugation of peoples. People needed to be forced against their will to stop keeping slaves. And the traditional "Hero", could never do such a thing.

Umm, when the British Empire decided to ban slavery they "purchased" all the slavery that people had and set them free. I believe the mentality was they were property until the slavery ban and it was not appropriate to take them without compensation. I suppose you could claim that it was a "tyrannical act" but in that case, many actions taken by many governments are "tyrannical".

Ultimately a "hero" could only do it for countries he was in charge or, or for countries where he was able to convince them in charge to ban it.

Or lead a revolution. That is certainly hero-like.

[Fwarlord]

Originally Posted by Metaneo

I literally said he wasn't a good King. None of what you describes makes him a bad person in the least.

But you said Gazef's loyalty wasn't misplaced. The problem is you should only loyal to a good leader, not a random good senile old man, it tends to not work well.

Gazef's plan failed because he didnt know Ainz had a Time Stop spell, however, while Brain and Climb couldnt make any sense of what they saw, they could always relay said info to an actual spell caster. Seeing Gazef fall to his death on his own is evidence enough to a knowledgeable spell caster that a Time Stop spell was cast. There's also other info I could tell you, but it might be considered spoiler territory.

That's too much of a stretch. There are countless conclusion could be taken from that outcomes: Ainz has an eye power that can kill just by looking, Ainz can kill just by his thought, Ainz used an underhanded method to poison Gazef before the duel, one of Ainz's henchmen possesses invisibility and killed Gazef, etc... All they saw was Gazef's humiliated defeat. Nothing good can be learnt from it.

Yes, I understand the age old saying "The Path to Hell is Paved with Good Intentions," but as manipulated as he is, his actions in and of themselves are Heroic. Climb has done nothing wrong and actively stands up for what he believes is right and just. His manipulator's intentions may not be in the right place but that doesnt apply to the actions Climb chooses to make when not under her orders.

If personal belief is the standard to evaluate one's worth, I can also say Demiurge is also pretty heroic at well. He also does what he believes to be right and just trying his best to be loyal to his liege and his comrades.

Except there's a massive difference between the two. Brain got his lifestyle shoved in his face, saw his mistakes and is trying to better himself. Ainz's actions are determined by layers of superficial acting, self doubt, and fear. Before I finish this I'd like to say this first, I do not consider Ainz a Hero nor his actions Heroic nor do I believe his means justify the ends if he DOES create his fair and good Utopia. What Ainz does is based off of 3 things; What makes him look good to his subordinates, because he's afraid of not being a proper lord to them. The combination of his Undead species AND his former human nature. And most important, What would make him look bad to his former guild-mates. If he didnt think a lot of things would be considered too extreme to his former companions, things would be A LOT more brutal.

The same can be applied to Ainz too. He also got his position shoved to his face, he made mistakes and tried his best to fix them, to better himself. Why do you think Brain's past misdeeds can be cancelled out by his future good deeds but the same thing can't be applied to Ainz?

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

I do wonder; how would one start to ban slavery in the New World, if they want to do it as a hero?

One thing that was brought up in other places, was that modern Isekai stories almost NEVER ban slavery. The alleged hero may buy and free a slave or two, but slavery itself is just assumed to be something that can't be fought. That it is out of the hero's hands.

Yes, Reener tried to ban slavery in her nation, but it was still happening. And her nation was about to be destroyed by Empire and Theocracy, neither ban slavery as long as only Elves are enslaved.

I guess what I am saying, is that slavery can only be combated by actual military might and subjugation of peoples. People needed to be forced against their will to stop keeping slaves. And the traditional "Hero", could never do such a thing.

Yes, slavery in isekai is a big problem to me as well. I can never understand why someone who was born and raised in the modern society wouldn't try to ban that barbaric act when they had the chance and the power to do so. Many of isekai protagonists became literal gods but still did nothing about it. That's why I like Ainz, he is one of the few who really tries to make a better world for all instead of just defeating the dark lord, then wandering around and letting the people at the mercy of the rotting feudal system .
I mean, it shouldn't be that hard when they have the power to save or destroy the world. They can demand countries to ban slavery or face their wrath, or they can lead a worldwide revolution against it and topple any government that chooses to keep it, but they don't. In many case, heroes commit mass genocide and ethnic cleansing on entire races like demon, demihuman or anything non-human but still have an issue with forcing humans to abandon inhuman practice. It's some twisted morality.

[moridin84]

I think don't that Climb's explanation for Gazef's actions is right. I think that explanation is just something Climb came up with because it suits him. He actually does that kind of rationalization all the time.

If the options of Gazef or (a) join Ainz or (b) die then I could understand him choosing (b).

Ainz didn't say "join me or die" but I guess that was implied?

[dwm042]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Slavery was on its way out in the US and it was its death throes. I mean, why did the North go for the ban in the first place? They weren't forced at gun point.

A bit of history. On the threat of a President being elected who would ban the expansion of slavery, the slave states seceeded and committed acts of war against the Northern states, starting the American Civil War. You can say, "well, if they had been more patient", but the folks running the slave states were anything but patient.

So, the North didn't "go for a ban". The South forced a war because slaves were so important to them. During the war, to make the political point that the war was about slavery, to even idiot Europeans, we get things like the Emancipation Proclamation.

I wouldn't have spoken, but a bit too much "Lost Cause" propaganda being tossed around..