(L) Monogatari Series Light Novel discussion

[Casarial]

Originally Posted by iceburgdragon

I just finished reading Zoku Owarimonogatari!
I've written the summary on the Wikia for anyone who's interested! I'm gonna have to make a bunch of edits since I didn't have time to double check what I wrote. I'm gonna go to bed now, and do that tomorrow

http://bakemonogatari.wikia.com/wiki...warimonogatari

Thank you!!! It seems much clearer now


I was sure at some point Koyomi take bath with his sisters or is my brain just playing tricks on me? I was sure that it take place in Tsukimonogatari but I take a look at summary and I didn't find anything... And I was even sure that someone make a comment about how different was Araragi's bathroom in anime and in the novel...

[apr]

Originally Posted by Casarial

I was sure at some point Koyomi take bath with his sisters or is my brain just playing tricks on me? I was sure that it take place in Tsukimonogatari but I take a look at summary and I didn't find anything...

The first 80 pages or so of Tsukimonogatari are about Koyomi and Tsukihi taking a bath together.

[Casarial]

Originally Posted by apr

The first 80 pages or so of Tsukimonogatari are about Koyomi and Tsukihi taking a bath together.

Ach... thank you It's not mentioned at bakemonogatari.wikia... I had to read it somewhere else :P

If they don't skip it in anime... PLATINUM BATH!!!

[Pi-face]

Originally Posted by Casarial

Ach... thank you It's not mentioned at bakemonogatari.wikia... I had to read it somewhere else :P

If they don't skip it in anime... PLATINUM BATH!!!

Maybe you read it here: http://cetranslation.blogspot.ru/201...onogatari.html

They will not. Look at these stained glass windows. This is Shaft's bathroom.

[Pi-face]

Originally Posted by Shikijin

妹達の力を借りずに目覚め、「何者でもなくなった」阿良々木暦が向かいあう、新しい世界とは… …?
Waking up through the energy of his sisters, "he who lost nothing", Koyomi Araragi, faces a brand new world...
Waking up without borrowing his sisters' help, "he who became a nobody", Koyomi Araragi, what new world is he going to face...?

Wow, much better ^^ I always thought that there was something wrong with this phrase. Thanks!
Now, when I have pretty much the whole picture I can finally ask some questions regarding this book and whole series.
About Zokuowarimonogatari:

1. Why Hanekawa in the Shirohebi Shrine is actually 6-year old? I get it, people because of Araragi's oddity become "reversed", but... is she, deep in her heart, wanted to be 6-year old? And she was adult in cat form, yes?
Also - Tsubasa actually was there, in this city (teleported from Afghanistan, or where she is in the end of the series?) or it was some sort of illusion caused by oddity?
2. Tooe already knew about Ougi? How? Or Araragi told her?
3. If the purpose of Gaen family was to create oddities - then why they have not been considered as a threat to the balance? As I remember, Shikijin mentioned that among some specialists in supernatural Araragi was considered as a threat. So why there was a family which is specialises in creating oddities in the first place? They could be a real threat too. And they still lived. For balance..?
4. People who were dragged into this incident - do they remember what have happened in the end? Or their memories about this incident were wiped out with this "20%"?
5. In this novel Yotsugi is still in Araragi's house. So, she is still there? Or she was there because of Araragi's oddity?
While thinking about this I realized that there might be a darker reason for that - for her being in Araragi's house.
Remeber that Ononoki and Kagenui specialises in killing immortal oddities? Maybe she is some sort of overseer for Araragi? In case he will lose control of his abilities. And... well he lost it in this novel, just like Hanekawa in Neko (White).

Thoughts about series in general:
1. Judging from Kaiki's words about Gaen Tooe - I think there is a certain chance that she was, in fact, some leader, or teacher in "oddity club" during young university years of Kaiki, Oshino, Kagenui, Izuko and Tadazuru. Plus Kaiki is younger then Tooe. Could it be a love from pupil to his teacher? Also there is a high chance that his habit of making some "lesson" for him or his interlocutor from every situation is passed to his personality from Tooe's. Remember her saying similar thing at the end of Hana?

2. Regarding discussion about the relationships between Hanekawa and Araragi. I think he loved her. But his love was just in "first stage", when you might be confused, or just become disappointed, disillusioned in person you have a crush on. I think a big role in that disappointment played Tsukihi's opinion regarding his feelings and, well, this whole situation with Hanekawa's twisted side.
He still adores her. But they had no time to sort out their feelings to the point when we might become a couple while overcoming their fears and beliefs.
But I guess that this is good at least for Araragi. Hitagi is certainly his lifebuoy in this sea of oddities. And if he stayed with Tsubasa-san... I'm afraid Gomi-kun would have drowned. With her.

3. Remember that scene where Ougi and Araragi in his classroom at the end of Onimonogatari? Koyomi said that he is planning to keep his mouth shut about that fact that Hachikuji disappeared, while pretending that she is still in town. I thought that it will eventually lead to her resurrection, or, at least, to proving that Ougi is actually Kuroyami, but then Owari 3 happend. And... well, now what was the purpose of this scene?

I also will be really happy to know what Nisio said in his afterword for this book.

[iceburgdragon]

Originally Posted by Casarial

Thank you!!! It seems much clearer now


I was sure at some point Koyomi take bath with his sisters or is my brain just playing tricks on me? I was sure that it take place in Tsukimonogatari but I take a look at summary and I didn't find anything... And I was even sure that someone make a comment about how different was Araragi's bathroom in anime and in the novel...

Oh yeah, I thought I included it in the summary, but I guess not. I can add that on.

[Shikijin]

Originally Posted by Pi-face

1. Why Hanekawa in the Shirohebi Shrine is actually 6-year old? I get it, people because of Araragi's oddity become "reversed", but... is she, deep in her heart, wanted to be 6-year old? And she was adult in cat form, yes?

I took it as just some kind of fanservice, it didn't have any particular meaning. They just said Hanekawa has many undersides, and the cat is just one of them.

Also - Tsubasa actually was there, in this city (teleported from Afghanistan, or where she is in the end of the series?) or it was some sort of illusion caused by oddity?

Everything was an illusion limited to Araragi's city, so the latter.

The novel also seemed to imply the ghost of Tooe is somehow real, and that's why Kanbaru can hear her in Hana.

2. Tooe already knew about Ougi? How? Or Araragi told her?

Everyone kind of knew about Ougi. Probably it meant the world was trying to fix itself somehow.

3. If the purpose of Gaen family was to create oddities - then why they have not been considered as a threat to the balance?

Yeah, that's kind of a plothole, but you have also to consider that Gaen Izuko became an influential boss, and people were probably afraid to mess with her.

4. People who were dragged into this incident - do they remember what have happened in the end? Or their memories about this incident were wiped out with this "20%"?

I think it was mentioned but I don't remember this part too well. Probably they have a foggy memory of it.

5. In this novel Yotsugi is still in Araragi's house. So, she is still there? Or she was there because of Araragi's oddity?
While thinking about this I realized that there might be a darker reason for that - for her being in Araragi's house.
Remeber that Ononoki and Kagenui specialises in killing immortal oddities? Maybe she is some sort of overseer for Araragi? In case he will lose control of his abilities. And... well he lost it in this novel, just like Hanekawa in Neko (White).

Yes, Ononoki is always there. It's explicitly stated it is to observe Araragi.

3. Remember that scene where Ougi and Araragi in his classroom at the end of Onimonogatari? Koyomi said that he is planning to keep his mouth shut about that fact that Hachikuji disappeared, while pretending that she is still in town. I thought that it will eventually lead to her resurrection, or, at least, to proving that Ougi is actually Kuroyami, but then Owari 3 happend. And... well, now what was the purpose of this scene?

It showed Araragi was mistrusting Ougi. It created suspense. Basically, it had no real purpose.

[iceburgdragon]

Originally Posted by Pi-face

1. Why Hanekawa in the Shirohebi Shrine is actually 6-year old? I get it, people because of Araragi's oddity become "reversed", but... is she, deep in her heart, wanted to be 6-year old? And she was adult in cat form, yes?
Also - Tsubasa actually was there, in this city (teleported from Afghanistan, or where she is in the end of the series?) or it was some sort of illusion caused by oddity?
2. Tooe already knew about Ougi? How? Or Araragi told her?
3. If the purpose of Gaen family was to create oddities - then why they have not been considered as a threat to the balance? As I remember, Shikijin mentioned that among some specialists in supernatural Araragi was considered as a threat. So why there was a family which is specialises in creating oddities in the first place? They could be a real threat too. And they still lived. For balance..?
4. People who were dragged into this incident - do they remember what have happened in the end? Or their memories about this incident were wiped out with this "20%"?
5. In this novel Yotsugi is still in Araragi's house. So, she is still there? Or she was there because of Araragi's oddity?
While thinking about this I realized that there might be a darker reason for that - for her being in Araragi's house.
Remeber that Ononoki and Kagenui specialises in killing immortal oddities? Maybe she is some sort of overseer for Araragi? In case he will lose control of his abilities. And... well he lost it in this novel, just like Hanekawa in Neko (White).

I just editted my summary of Zoku. I realized that I forgot to include a few key details. This includes how Tsukihi was unchanged because she's perfectly happy with who she is and she has no hidden desires, and how Ougi is dressed in a boy's school uniform, in reference to Suruga Devil.

To answer your questions to the best of my knowledge:

1. Hanekawa has multiple different personalities. One of them is that of a six-year-old. Her desire to stay in the town with her friends was an immature desire so it manifested itself as a six-year-old girl. Hanekawa actually did leave the country, right after the graduation. Araragi was literally crying when saying goodbye at the airport. He was clinging to her legs, begging her to stay lol (I didn't include this detail in the summary).

2. I think the author wanted to show that Tooe is a genius. You know how Gaen Izuko always says she knows everything? Well Tooe is even more ridiculous than her sister. Gaen knows everything presumably because she has a large network. Tooe understands everything about that person just by talking to that person.

3. This question I'm not so sure about, but I'm assuming they can create Oddities without breaking the balance. On a side note, a whole lot of Oddity specialists weren't happy about Araraki saving a dangerous Oddity like Ougi. They were worried that Ougi will cause harm again. But since this time around, Ougi was the one who solved the problem, Ougi deduced that those specialists will trust her more now.

4. Yeah, people basically have no memories of this event.

5. Remember in Owari 3, Kagenui was fighting with polar bears in the North Pole? Well she's still fighting polar bears lol. Ononoki can't leave without her master, so she continues to stay at Araragi's house. But like you said, she could also be monitoring the town to see if there are any more Oddity-related issues.

[iceburgdragon]

Originally Posted by Shikijin

妹達の力を借りずに目覚め、「何者でもなくなった」阿良々木暦が向かいあう、新しい世界とは… …?
Waking up through the energy of his sisters, "he who lost nothing", Koyomi Araragi, faces a brand new world...
Waking up without borrowing his sisters' help, "he who became a nobody", Koyomi Araragi, what new world is he going to face...?

Thanks Shikijin,
Can I use your translation to edit that section on the Wikia page? I only editted the summary section so that "Publisher's Summary" section wasn't translated by me. That section has been there for a while.

[Shikijin]

Ah ok. I did hope it wasn't you the one who wrote that.

[iceburgdragon]

Originally Posted by Pi-face

Thank you! I hope it'll recover broken hearts of some series fans regarding last book and Nisio's "brilliance as a writer" in general.
BTW What are your thoughts about this book?

I thought this last book was a good way to end the series. Owari 3 was pretty conclusive, so I was wondering what Zoku could be about. After graduation, Araragi wasn't quite ready to move on from his high school life. He still had regrets, worries, and uncertainties, which brought about this whole event. It was really interesting to see all the characters with altered appearances and personalities. I especially enjoyed seeing (reading?) Oshino Shinobu as a human. She was extremely polite and kind, and I love how Araragi was constantly like "I should kill myself for troubling her Majesty! Wait a minute, why do I have to kill myself, what's wrong with me?" I would try to guess what form each character will take as I was reading, but I was never able to correctly predict anything. The entire story was ridiculous with repeated WTFs, it was awesome. And I was totally not expecting to see Gaen Tooe. She was pretty badass. You can obviously tell the author was having too much fun writing this. I would have also liked to see more of the specialists like Oshino Meme and Kaiki Deishu, but I guess that would be asking for too much.

I think Zoku teaches an important lesson too, which is to be able to move forward, and realize that there's no use regretting because what's done is done. Araragi felt like he lost his identity by graduating. I guess the reason why Zoku was written was because Araragi himself wasn't ready to move on. But by the end he becomes willing to move forward to begin a new chapter in his monogatari (story), along with Hitagi. It was a good conclusion

I'm wondering if Shaft will make this into another season, or a movie like Kizu.

[Rost-Light]

Wow, thank you very much for this summary and a lot of details.
But actually I was very confused when read all of this. I can't properly sort out my own feelings.
I already talked about Classical Theory Of The Plot, about Climax and Denouement. In that case my hopes were justified. It is epilogue, but it includes a little part of Denouement. The last scene perfectly fits protagonist's plot line and bridge between Pre-Owari Koyomi and Koyomi in Hana was finally established.

Spoiler for IMHO:

*I can't help myself but make a remark, about this scene. The answer about "how to step forward" was given to Koyomi by Hitagi. Yes, I know it is very subjective, but it coincides with my view of Koyomi's character and motivation so much... I almost hear "click!" of completely solved puzzle*

And idea of "last look" at our beloved characters is not bad at all. It is good for epilogue...
But... But.
But I found out, that I'm not so happy about realization of this idea. It seems we have a lot of plot holes here. Reasons which moves Araragi around the city is very vague... It's seems Nisio lead the protagonist from point A to point B just to show to the reader as much "revealed" characters as he can. This is an exaggeration, because some characters weren't shown for reasons (And it is actually good, I think. Kaiki and Oshino are not needed here, for so many reasons...). But I can't stop feel hackwork here.
This novel is well embedded in the overall plot structure of the series, but has some troubles with its own plot. Yeah, Nisio created good puzzle about "not so mirror world" and "your partner, but not Shinobu", but this is decorations - not the foundation. Plot is not simple sequence of events but sequence of events which influence on character's motivation. I can find only two events like this here: conversations with Tooe and answer from Hitagi. Yeah, actually I have no right to judge this, because I didn't read the book, but I can't see the place for plot related events here. It's seems like reverences to the fans, but not like complete story. And I try with all my volition not to take this like "I just write again about the characters for people who have no eyes and ears". Because, o Lord, all this regrets and stuff... we already know about almost all of them. Slowraragi-kun is the only one who can be surprised by them.
Yeah, this novel is still fun and interesting, I'm sure. But it seems to me it has fatal lack of independence.

I'm wondering if Shaft will make this into another season, or a movie like Kizu.
or a movie like Kizu.
a movie like Kizu.
like Kizu.
Kizu

No, no, no, no! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! Be carefull what you wish for! Totally NOT like Kizu, o Lord, please... One KizuNever is already too much... O_o

[Guernsey]

Is there a 'wrong' way to interpret this series? It seems as though that some things in the story can only be interpreted one way or else you will 'miss' the point entirely.

[iceburgdragon]

Originally Posted by Rost-Light

But I found out, that I'm not so happy about realization of this idea. It seems we have a lot of plot holes here. Reasons which moves Araragi around the city is very vague... It's seems Nisio lead the protagonist from point A to point B just to show to the reader as much "revealed" characters as he can. This is an exaggeration, because some characters weren't shown for reasons (And it is actually good, I think. Kaiki and Oshino are not needed here, for so many reasons...). But I can't stop feel hackwork here.

Spoiler for spoiler:

Araragi seeming to move from one place to the other without good reasons is partially my fault. I wanted to skip minor details in order to keep the summary relatively short, but it looks like what I did hurt the logical flow of the story a little bit. Araragi woke up in the morning after graduation. He felt like going cycling to help clear up his mind. He goes to the bathroom to wash his face, and the strange occurrences begin. He's kind of freaked out by the changes he sees in Karen and Ononoki, but he decides to stick with his original plans of going outside. He doesn't want Karen or Ononoki to notice and be concerned about how freaked out he is, so he tries to leave the house as soon as possible. He calls for Shinobu from his shadow, to see if she has any clues about this issue, but no one responds. He then decides that the only other person he can talk to about Oddity-related issues is Hachikuji, since she just became god. He figured she must know something about what's going on.

Yeah, but I agree that the entire plot was pretty random. It feels like Zoku was created as a fanservice for those of us who don't want to let go of the Monogatari series. Hey! Sort of like how Araragi didn't want to let go of his high school days. So maybe Nishio wrote Zoku in order to tell us the series is over and it's time to move on just like how Araragi moved on? haha just a random thought.

Spoiler for Ending:

I really liked how the novel ended with Hitagi jumping forward. I thought it was a great way to end things.

lol and yeah definitely not like Kizu

[Crossheart]

Thanks for the summary.

And after reading, my first guess from the spoilers seems to be truth. This a epilogue of the type: "The adventure is endless so keep moving!", nothing more to discuses there.




And Shaft, for God's sake, give Kizu a 5 episode special like Neko Kuro, Hana and Tsuki and finish this!!!

[iceburgdragon]

I added the summary for the newest short story in Kanbaru's heroine book, "Rouka God".

http://bakemonogatari.wikia.com/wiki...ries#Rouka_God

Pretty interesting read

[Casarial]

Thank you for summary

Indeed it looks interesting. That made up story with clear reference to Hitagi Is it pointed there if Numachi already have some Devil's part at this moment or Kaneki point her first one?

When I think about it Kaiki has manipulated events in some way (somehow like Izuko did) which in the end leads to resolve of Devil's matter. (Things which he said to Numachi here and to Kanbaru in Hanamonogatari)

[Rost-Light]

Originally Posted by iceburgdragon

Yeah, but I agree that the entire plot was pretty random. It feels like Zoku was created as a fanservice for those of us who don't want to let go of the Monogatari series. Hey! Sort of like how Araragi didn't want to let go of his high school days. So maybe Nishio wrote Zoku in order to tell us the series is over and it's time to move on just like how Araragi moved on? haha just a random thought.

Yeah, it is a good point. But I would accepted it better if all this "next season" stuff just didn't exist. If this "see your later" is just a trolling it would be unpleasant but OK. I can tolerate this. If it is new main plotline and new main conflict it would be right and actually good. But if it is not, this epilogue, all this "last looks", "fanservice for those of us who don't want to let go" would become pointless nonsence.
May be because of it I want to criticize this novel so much. Speaking of this...

What about conflict in this novel? I guess even perfect summary can't reflect this properly (no offence, I think your summary is great and I'm very grateful), but how does it feel when you actually read this? Koyomi started with doubts about his past and future and ends up with this doubts until Hitagi gives him the answer. What lies between? Is there some escalation or development? Is there any Climax here? The escalation of the conflict is the thing which brings tension into the story and makes it interesting. But I hardly feel something like this here... This novel just seems very... peacefull and smooth O_o

Spoiler for Ending:

I really liked how the novel ended with Hitagi jumping forward. I thought it was a great way to end things.

Yeah, I find it great as well. I have no idea why this scene was ignored in all summaries and spoilers before. Because it is what I looked for in this novel and without it I can't feel relieved.

And Rouka God seems to be great story. I almost see this conversation. Not only details but the entire situations is just hilarious. Liar told the truth (almost truth) to the fake advisor for the sake of deceiving, and gets a really helpfull advice in return. Brilliant.
And this thing boosts my sympathy to the Kaiki by many reason. The fact that I like to lie using the truth is only one of them

[Pi-face]

Originally Posted by iceburgdragon

I added the summary for the newest short story in Kanbaru's heroine book, "Rouka God".

http://bakemonogatari.wikia.com/wiki...ries#Rouka_God

Pretty interesting read

Thank you for this summary! I was surprised to see Kaiki once again. At the begining I thought "Wow, this mught be the continuation of Suruga Devil?!" But no, still this is satisfactory ^^
And... "Rouka God", "Suruga Devil". Damn you Nisio, so good!

I was сurious about one thing for a while - who actually created Yotsugi and who not? I know for sure that it was Tadatsuru, Kagenui and Izuko. And they became cursed. But what about Oshino and Kaiki? They also took part in it?

Originally Posted by Casarial

Indeed it looks interesting. That made up story with clear reference to Hitagi Is it pointed there if Numachi already have some Devil's part at this moment or Kaneki point her first one?

I think he really did pushed her to collect more of devil parts. But, as I recall - she had the first part from her sister. And by that time she (before or after taking this part) commited suicide. So she already became the collector.

Originally Posted by Rost-Light

But I would accepted it better if all this "next season" stuff just didn't exist. If this "see your later" is just a trolling it would be unpleasant but OK. I can tolerate this. If it is new main plotline and new main conflict it would be right and actually good. But if it is not, this epilogue, all this "last looks", "fanservice for those of us who don't want to let go" would become pointless nonsence.

Relax, if Nisio is really not just troll us by exploiting this joke about "onemoremonogatari", I'm sure he'll make one good spin-off series, as he already did with Ningen Series for Zaregoto.

[iceburgdragon]

Originally Posted by Casarial

Thank you for summary
Indeed it looks interesting. That made up story with clear reference to Hitagi Is it pointed there if Numachi already have some Devil's part at this moment or Kaneki point her first one?

I need to go back and watch Hanamonogatari again because I don't remember the exact chronology. It could be that the "client" that Kaiki wants to introduce is Kanbaru, and Numachi already started collecting the Rainy Devil Parts before meeting Kaiki. But most likey, Numachi has only been collecting misfortunes before meeting Kaiki, and the "client" that Kaiki wants to introduce is the first person with the Devil part. My guess is that Gaen Tooe asked Kaiki to collect the parts, so Kaiki decides to manipulate Numachi into doing the job for him.

What about conflict in this novel? I guess even perfect summary can't reflect this properly (no offence, I think your summary is great and I'm very grateful), but how does it feel when you actually read this? Koyomi started with doubts about his past and future and ends up with this doubts until Hitagi gives him the answer. What lies between? Is there some escalation or development? Is there any Climax here? The escalation of the conflict is the thing which brings tension into the story and makes it interesting. But I hardly feel something like this here... This novel just seems very... peacefull and smooth O_o

Spoiler for Spoiler:

There was a certain amount of suspense. At the beginning when Araragi thinks that he entered the mirror world, he pointed out how lighthearted the situation was. So the author seems to be aware of how non-serious the plot is. But then, Araragi goes to visit Kanbaru, and he's suddenly attacked by Rainy Devil Kanbaru, so there's some conflict there. The first real tension we see is when Shinobu tells Araragi to leave the "mirror world" as soon as possible. Otherwise Araragi can unintentionally destroy the foundation of the world. At the time, Araragi's attitude was already having adverse effects on Oikura. When Araragi and Oikura were hanging out, Oikura said, "I'm so happy right now, but somehow I think this is all a lie". If Araragi stays any longer, Oikura might find out the truth and become devastated. Shinobu believes Araragi can have a similar influence on the other characters in this world, and this can eventually lead to the world falling apart. So things start to get serious from this point.

The other worry that Araragi has throughout the novel is the whereabouts of Araragi in the "mirror world". He thinks that if the mirror Araragi is not in this world, he must be in the "real world", so they switched places. Araragi suspects that the mirror Araragi is Ougi, so trapping Araragi in the mirror world might be a form of Ougi's revenge. He worried that mirror Araragi/Ougi might be causing havok in the "real world". This also motivates Araragi to find a way to solve the problem as soon as possible.

When Araragi sees Ougi's uniform in his closet, he mistakenly believes that he's slowly turning into Ougi. Shinobu told him that he's having adverse effects on the mirror world. But at this point, Araragi thinks that the mirror world is having adverse effects on him. The thought of himself slowly turning into someone else terrifies him. This fear acts as an even bigger drive for him to escape this world.

Of course Ougi's uniform in the closet was a joke on Ougi's part so Araragi was worrying for nothing. In fact the entire novel builds up a good suspense, but once Araragi meets Ougi, Ougi reveals that it was nothing serious, and the whole thing can be resolved easily. Ougi even trolls Araragi (and the reader) by saying, "What if I told that everything you've experienced from turning into a vampire during spring break to graduating high school was a dream, and this mirror world is actually the real world"? Araragi was like, "WHAT NO WAY", and Ougi was like "just kidding!".

So like I said, there is definitely suspense and conflict building up, but since it's revealed in the end that the situation wasn't as serious as Araragi thought, it seems like a very lighthearted story overall