[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 5 End of the golden witch

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Honestly, it's something he relies on a bit too much, like how in EP6, Dlanor puts a ban on making reds about the window. For no good reason. Just to mess with the reader.

Or how Beatrice dodges Dlanor's supposedly undodgable attack in EP6, because of popcorn... That one was rad.

Rather than messing with the reader, I think it's more that Ryu has Dlanor seal red truths because not doing so would remove conflict from his plot. We never actually get an explanation for why she can do that. We have theories about it though.

[Cao Ni Ma]

Originally Posted by LyricalAura

You know, even if Lambda prevented the red from being used, there wasn't actually anything stopping Piece Erika from pointing it out.

Well, she could if she actually did her job as a detective instead of relying on those three to do the job for her. Its hilarious because sometimes she goes into superhuman mode and does the most obtuse things imaginable to prove her point but cant simply investigate the room and confirm that there was no way for the window could have been open before the room was unsealed. Its was pretty easy to figure that red truth as well!

[AuraTwilight]

Or how Beatrice dodges Dlanor's supposedly undodgable attack in EP6, because of popcorn... That one was rad.

I just want to point out that this one is actually kind of justified. Lambdadelta is a nigh-omnipotent personification/embodiment of Certainty, which Dlanor's undodgeability relies on. If Lambdadelta vetos that, well, fuck you, Dlanor.

Also it was clearly a gag. This is all entirely different from something like just...banning arguments just because, and treating it as a serious obstacle.

Rather than messing with the reader, I think it's more that Ryu has Dlanor seal red truths because not doing so would remove conflict from his plot. We never actually get an explanation for why she can do that. We have theories about it though.

That ultimately amounts to the same thing. Ryukishi is a shitty writer so he applies arbitrary problems in order to ramp up the tension and try and get our goat, because otherwise the obvious solution would be valid (and it ends up being so anyway).

[ErenselTheJester]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

I just want to point out that this one is actually kind of justified. Lambdadelta is a nigh-omnipotent personification/embodiment of Certainty, which Dlanor's undodgeability relies on. If Lambdadelta vetos that, well, fuck you, Dlanor.

Also it was clearly a gag. This is all entirely different from something like just...banning arguments just because, and treating it as a serious obstacle.



That ultimately amounts to the same thing. Ryukishi is a shitty writer so he applies arbitrary problems in order to ramp up the tension and try and get our goat, because otherwise the obvious solution would be valid (and it ends up being so anyway).

I think its obvious he did it on purpose. I think he wants to show us something about the Red Truth that could help us with passed Red Truths.

[AuraTwilight]

Well obviously he did it on purpose, but all it really shows us is that the Red Truth is absolutely arbitrary.

And if the Red Truth IS arbitrary, then he's basically just making a fool of himself. There's nothing clever in going "Hey trust this text" and then going "FOOLED YOU IT'S A RUSE". All it teaches readers is not to trust Ryukishi on anything.

[UsagiTenpura]

I don't think that's really the approach Ryuukishi wanted.
"Anything is subjective" so by definition red "had" to be subjective.
Sure he probably could've tried to make them much more clear, but I think the "problem of the red" is not entirely Ryuukishi's fault, but a basic flaw sorta.

At the same time that you can dodge the meaning of about any red, you can also make a red say things that it didn't intend to say in the first place.
I think Ryuukishi both showed us red used in a tyranical way to mean "too much" and also in a sorta "cheating" way by making them mean basically nothing.
The whole thing was to make us understand, I believe, a point about truth itself.
Basically Red Truth was a self-lesson, not a means of investigation.
Sorta like the Gold. Gold's existence is to teach us a point, it's not something to fight or even to use as a weapon (even tho Battler did, that wasn't the point).
Another example is the Mystery Rules, probably the best one actually. It's so easy to give them a sort of "overkill" meaning to rule out possibilities that they weren't meant to rule out, as much as it's easy to bypass their meaning and still allow the possibilities they were meant to rule out.

[AuraTwilight]

The unfortunate consequence of his making this point, however, is that it makes most of the characters seem like dishonest cheaters even if they don't seem to be intended to be so, and it also invalidates any attempts of deducing any real, meaningful truth.

Hell, Beatrice has lied in the red, but we've already had that argument in this thread.

[WitchOfDoubt]

[quote]Well obviously he did it on purpose, but all it really shows us is that the Red Truth is absolutely arbitrary.

And if the Red Truth IS arbitrary, then he's basically just making a fool of himself. There's nothing clever in going "Hey trust this text" and then going "FOOLED YOU IT'S A RUSE". All it teaches readers is not to trust Ryukishi on anything.

It's not arbitrary, it's "literal truth." However, some people use literal truth to tell implicit lies, or use their power to keep other true statements from being made by bullying and coercion.

But I think we're talking confusingly about two different scenes. Are we talking about the scene where Kinzo is trying to get out of the study, or the giant dramatic Logic Error? Because I can see a psychological reason for the Red Truth abuse in the first case, and a contextual reason to use it in the second case. But a discussion of the second case probably belongs in the EP 6 thread.

I don't think that's really the approach Ryuukishi wanted.
"Anything is subjective" so by definition red "had" to be subjective.

The Red Truth is only as arbitrary as "literal" truth is. When agreement exists between the reader and the author as to what entities the Red Truth is referring to, the Red Truth must communicate true facts. For example, if both of us agree who "Shannon" is, then using "Shannon" to mean "Mick Jagger" in a Red Truth statement would break the rules.

Even when this is not the case - for example, when two readers disagree about what "24:00" means - the contradiction can be a signpost to an author or character's real intent.

For example, if I post, in Red, that "chips are generally round and flat/wrinkled," and another reader posts in Red that "chips are generally long and thin," we might realize that we are discussing different things.

The Browth Truth is something like Fridge Horror on TV Tropes (of which I will not link here as I do not want people disappearing for several months into that site... :3). Basically, it's something that is said which may or may not seem innocuous, but ultimately causes you to go "Oh SH--" through the horror of dawning realization. And thus the color, brown. How's that? 8)

False.

In my opinion, that's sort of lame, since it's entirely dependent on subjective emotional responses.

Yes. If I make a Brown Truth statement, the emotional response of the person hearing will NOT retroactively change it to not be Brown Truth.

I could make a Brown Truth statement even if nobody were present but me. People actually do that, in a sense.

I will post more later, and I will post a satisfactory 'knock-exists' resolution to the knock and letter. I will also -

Officially, the change to and from DST takes place at 2:00 am local standard time (which is 3:00 am DST) on the appropriate Sunday.

That blow hit me, but I'm glad that you're choosing that avenue of attack! I can easily -

Indeed. However... The WST established by Japan in 1895 and the modern WST, which denotes Australian Western Standard Time, are not the same legal entity, even though they both refer to the UTC+8:00 time zone. Daylight Saving Time in particular is a feature of national policy and has no connection to which zone the nation is in.

So, why would Kinzo choose to align himself with western Australia (which only occasionally feels like trying out DST anyway)?

Shit.

(This is the sound of a stake hitting the Witch of Doubt really hard.)

[AuraTwilight]

It's not arbitrary, it's "literal truth." However, some people use literal truth to tell implicit lies, or use their power to keep other true statements from being made by bullying and coercion.

Shannon is dead. Except, no, she can get up and be alive any time she wants. Oops, literal my fucking ass.

Also can you please define with Brown Truth is?

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by WitchOfDoubt

The Red Truth is only as arbitrary as "literal" truth is. When agreement exists between the reader and the author as to what entities the Red Truth is referring to, the Red Truth must communicate true facts. For example, if both of us agree who "Shannon" is, then using "Shannon" to mean "Mick Jagger" in a Red Truth statement would break the rules.

Even when this is not the case - for example, when two readers disagree about what "24:00" means - the contradiction can be a signpost to an author or character's real intent.

For example, if I post, in Red, that "chips are generally round and flat/wrinkled," and another reader posts in Red that "chips are generally long and thin," we might realize that we are discussing different things.

You might be up on something as, during the game, they spent time checking some definitions that actually seemed obvious at first glance.

For example Battler and Beato discuss the definition of a closed room and later Lambda will explain what she means with knocking sound (and there are other istances but I can't remember them right now).

Now, some things that are said in the definitions can be of some value (es: the knocking sound can't be the recording of a knocking sound) but others are pretty obvious.

It could have been a hint to the fact we were supposed to assume words in red might not have the most obvious meaning.
However, the definitions given HAD THE MOST OBVIOUS MEANING so it sounded more like confirming this than making us wary.
Plus we can't check the meaning of each word and Battler doesn't check the meaning of each word.
If the meaning of each word that hadn't been defined is questionable then the red truth becomes garbage, the game loses its rules and it can't be played anymore.

[WitchOfDoubt]

Shannon is dead. Except, no, she can get up and be alive any time she wants. Oops, literal my fucking ass.

Episode 7 tries to explain this; one of the main purposes of Episode 7 is to explain how this can literally work. It does so clearly and succinctly.

---

A metaphor:

A kid watches Hamlet with his parents. At the end, he asks his mother, "Is Hamlet really dead?"

"Yes," replies his mother. "Hamlet is dead."

This seems like a literal fact about how the play ends. The kid contemplates his mortality, until the actor playing Hamlet gets up and takes a bow.

"Is he alive?" asks the kid.

"Yes," says his mother.

Later in life, the kid watches Hamlet again, with a different cas. At the beginning of the play, he finds it amusing that the very same person who died and gave him his first existential crisis is now walking around. Hamlet is alive, he thinks to himself. And this is also literally quite true.

If we do not allow "Hamlet is dead/alive" to be a literally true statement, then, by analogy, any statement about characters in Umineko is "not literally true."

But Shannon is an especially tricky case, and the best answer might to be to never make Red Truth statements about her at all. But I don't see how Ryukishi07 could have possibly pulled that off without giving the whole game away.

---

If the meaning of each word that hadn't been defined is questionable then the red truth becomes garbage, the game loses its rules and it can't be played anymore.

We don't get Red Truth in real life, but we can still seek understanding. We can still be honest or dishonest, we can still make good guesses, and we can still follow the weight of probabilities.

We also don't get Red Truth in many novels with unreliable narrators, but it's possible to read between the lines.

--

Also can you please define with Brown Truth is?

In case unsuspectingVisitor ever rejoins this discussion, no. That would defeat the point.

The Brown Truth does not usually declare its rules. Even explictly coloring certain statements as Brown Truth is more than Ryukishi07 does.

And I suspect you already know. Of all the people here, you probably need to have the Brown Truth explained to you the least.

[unsuspectingvisitor]

Originally Posted by WitchOfDoubt

In case unsuspectingVisitor ever rejoins this discussion, no. That would defeat the point.

Im not sure what you mean about that.

anyways, Can you guys please stop talking about the Red truth like it's all lies. If you already Played Pheonix wright, I think you already know that the Red truth was similar to the Red text in that game. The Red text was used to give hints to the player for those who didn't know. Now don't you think that The Red text in pheonix wright games was explored and copied by Ryukishin? Its possible since Even the Blue text in Pheonix wright was copied and Battler's pointing gesture similar to pheonix wright Objection.

Off topic. i think if you played Pheonix Wright ; Umineko will be easy to understand

[AuraTwilight]

We understanding, unsuspectingvisitor. And no one's saying the Red Truth is literally all lies; we're just bringing up the point that Ryukishi ended up ruining it's integrity with how he abused it.

[unsuspectingvisitor]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

We understanding, unsuspectingvisitor. And no one's saying the Red Truth is literally all lies; we're just bringing up the point that Ryukishi ended up ruining it's integrity with how he abused it.

how did Ryukishin abused the use of Red truth? i have no idea what your talking about sorry.


Anyways, I have read the Ep5 manga and i noticed something important. Krauss and Natsuhi left the Dining hall. Natsuhi heard the clock at that time While in the second floor hallway. This confirmed the Red truth that Natsuhi ,Krauss , and genji was located in the second floor hall way at 12:00.
Another one was We didn't even know when Shannon and Kanon entered the Dining hall so it's possible that the person that called Natsuhi on the phone was Yasu.
Lastly, The knock just like everyone have guessed was a lie. yeah i admit it. I didn't know that there's a Cassette tape in there. It's possible that the Cassete tape was used to record the knock. The Red truth about how everyone can never misidentify a knock was useless since They can't even identify that the sound that they heard was a knock to begin with.

[AuraTwilight]

how did Ryukishin abused the use of Red truth? i have no idea what your talking about sorry.

I've explained this many times in this thread. For instance, the Red Truth has abused the meaning of Death for the characters Shannon and Kanon.

[LyricalAura]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

I've explained this many times in this thread.

This is the EP5 thread, AT.

[unsuspectingvisitor]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

I've explained this many times in this thread. For instance, the Red Truth has abused the meaning of Death for the characters Shannon and Kanon.

Refer me to one of your Post so that i can see your reasoning.

[Kealym]

Originally Posted by unsuspectingvisitor

how did Ryukishin abused the use of Red truth?

Eh, well, the limits of what counts as abuse seems to vary from reader to reader. I think the thick of it, is Ryukishi knocking us over the head about how we're supposed to trust him, but then you get these egregious moments wherein Shannon and Kanon can be declared dead while still physically alive.

Originally Posted by unsuspectingvisitor

Anyways, I have read the Ep5 manga and i noticed something important. Krauss and Natsuhi left the Dining hall. Natsuhi heard the clock at that time While in the second floor hallway. This confirmed the Red truth that Natsuhi ,Krauss , and genji was located in the second floor hall way at 12:00.
Another one was We didn't even know when Shannon and Kanon entered the Dining hall so it's possible that the person that called Natsuhi on the phone was Yasu.
Lastly, The knock just like everyone have guessed was a lie. yeah i admit it. I didn't know that there's a Cassette tape in there. It's possible that the Cassete tape was used to record the knock. The Red truth about how everyone can never misidentify a knock was useless since They can't even identify that the sound that they heard was a knock to begin with.

I usually try to avoid sounding like a jerk on this board, but you do realize that everything you pointed out is the same in the VN, as well. right?

Also, WitchofDoubt, could you reconsider just defining what this brown text is supposed to be? Or, hell, I'm curious - just send me a message explaining your intention? It's almost impossible to reason it out without a direct definition or stronger comparative contexts.

[AuraTwilight]

Originally Posted by LyricalAura

This is the EP5 thread, AT.

D'oh, I accidentally messed up my tabs when I made that. Alright, well, to make it brief since this isn't really the thread for it.

Spoiler for For Brevity:

Basically the Red Truth isn't reliably true because any word can mean anything Beatrice wants it to, and it's completely arbitrary and the same word doesn't have to mean the same thing in different sentences. For examples, You can say in red that Kanon and Shannon are dead, even though they aren't; they're just faking it by virtue of being the same person.

Also, WitchofDoubt, could you reconsider just defining what this brown text is supposed to be? Or, hell, I'm curious - just send me a message explaining your intention?

Ditto. In all sincerity, it's not accomplishing anything but distracting people from your arguments. It's hard to listen to a guy if he's wearing a bright pink blazer with swear words stitched all over it.

[unsuspectingvisitor]

Originally Posted by Kealym

Eh, well, the limits of what counts as abuse seems to vary from reader to reader. I think the thick of it, is Ryukishi knocking us over the head about how we're supposed to trust him, but then you get these egregious moments wherein Shannon and Kanon can be declared dead while still physically alive.

Well the one that was alive was Yasu not Shannon or Kanon. Also those two are just personality created by Yasu and i think the only way kill them was to make everyone believe that those two are dead .

The Red truth about Kanon or Shannon being Dead was said by Beatrice. That's what she believed and that's what everyone on the island believed. It can also means that the Red truth was the truth that Everyone on the island believed.

anyways, I think that the Red truth was Based on someone else POV. In that case i think every Red was based from Yasu's POV.

I usually try to avoid sounding like a jerk on this board, but you do realize that everything you pointed out is the same in the VN, as well. right?

Yeah i know that. I never mention it but i compared the manga to the VN .
The only difference is the lack of Narrator in the manga. But that makes it more easier.