StarCraft 2

[Sephi]

Your right Proto. Blizzard selling point has never been the graphics. Though i must say, even though it isn't there selling point. Their games do look good, and aren't to resource hungry.

I wasn't very clear with what i mean. I mean the buildings and units look cartoon-like. I personally don't get a Starcraft feel from seeing what i saw so far. I personally expected the building to look more like something that fits in the SC universe. Instead, it looks more like someting from the Warcraft universe than the Starcraft universie.

How i did expected it? I can't really put it in words, but i'll know it when i see it. But not what i saw so far.

[felix]

I suppose your one of those people that were brought up with the new 3D cartoon(-crap). When you say cartoon a lot of us will understand old school moving drawings (you know like anime). It has been mentioned before and I am sure blizzard is aware of what it is doing. Yes they are a little too round for my licking but then that helps focus on them easier (I guess).

[gummybear]

hmmmmmm did they took out immortals? I was watching the video and notice the toss player never make any immortals to counter those heavy armed soldier thingy.

[felix]

While heavily armored they seem to be still just infantry. (edit: re-watched it, they are indeed just infantry produced from the upgraded barracks)

I like how you can have some dependency on infantry as opposed to full mech war.
I really enjoyed the concept of heavy infantry in C&C3.

[felix]

http://starcraft2.com/features/proto...mplar-vote.xml

[blitz1/2]

Originally Posted by Cats

http://starcraft2.com/features/proto...mplar-vote.xml

I rather have both but as different types of infantry.

[felix]

I like the idea of multiple models for the same unit. I do not know why its has not cought on, I always thought it was great in every instance it was implamented in the past. The male/female unit idea is also pretty cool.

[LoweGear]

Yup, if you can't choose between one, why not both? Besides it adds flavor, instead of having a monotony of unit appearances.

[Scorpian]

The game *looks* pretty decent, but I have a feeling its going to flop... I wish they would have added some more factions though; warhammer now has *9* counting all the expansions - I think they should have at least added 1-2 more factions to the game... It doesn't look like it will do as well as brood war.

[Proto]

*snip*

ninja'ed

[Keroko]

Ninja-thread merge seems to have solved the problem.

Originally Posted by Scorpian

The game *looks* pretty decent, but I have a feeling its going to flop... I wish they would have added some more factions though; warhammer now has *9* counting all the expansions - I think they should have at least added 1-2 more factions to the game... It doesn't look like it will do as well as brood war.

A major difference between DoW and SC is that for DoW the backgrounds and appearances for all the factions were already created. All Relic had to do was 3D and balance them. There is a huge difference between implementing something and creating something. The Warhammer franchise was waiting for the 'new' races, but would the Starcraft franchise be waiting for whatever new race would have been inserted?

Take Red Alert 3 for example, many people think the Empire ruined the game and that they should have stuck to Allies VS Soviets.

[Scorpian]

Originally Posted by Keroko

Ninja-thread merge seems to have solved the problem.



A major difference between DoW and SC is that for DoW the backgrounds and appearances for all the factions were already created. All Relic had to do was 3D and balance them. There is a huge difference between implementing something and creating something. The Warhammer franchise was waiting for the 'new' races, but would the Starcraft franchise be waiting for whatever new race would have been inserted?

Take Red Alert 3 for example, many people think the Empire ruined the game and that they should have stuck to Allies VS Soviets.

Granted. However, I think they had a decent amount of time to create at least 2 new factions, considering the last game came out over ten years ago. And, there was already foreshadowing of different races when recalling the ending of the game. Call it a wild shot in the dark, but I dont think SC fans would mind the addition of a couple new races...

[Keroko]

I agree they had more then enough time, and they certainly had more then enough money.

The problem doesn't lie in the time and money aspect, the problem lies in the fanbase. Starcraft is something of a legacy, even now you can find Starcraft in your regular gamestore. Few are the RTS gamers that haven't heard of Starcraft, whether they played it or not. When making a Starcraft 2 Blizzard had two choices: Do we ponder to the fans of old, or are we going to try something new?

Seeing Starcraft's huge, and still ongoing, success, they chose the former.

You see, a shot in the dark is risky. They would have had enough time to develop a new race, but would the fans accept that new race? The entire franchise could collapse with the addition of a new race, and Blizzard quite frankly was too cautious to take that risk. they decided to pander the safe route and give the fans what they know and love, and introduce and entire new generation of gamers to that very thing.

Who knows, unless this game flops, we might see a new race somewhere along the lines still. The Xel'Naga are out there, somewhere, after all.

[Klashikari]

Actually, I'm too concerned of a possible additional race or so.
The strength of starcraft was the moderately well geared balance between the races (mind you, I won't state that some tactics are largely favored or so).

Adding new races might not only be ticky lore wise (though Blizzard was never frugal in term of debatable and borderline ludicrous lore retcon with WoW), but gameplay wise, it is rather difficult to give a broad strong different gameplay (yes, I know warhammer has nine races that are pretty different each other).

I would rather prefer polished gameplay and balance (even if there is always pseudo balance for RTS) instead of gimmick new race that will either ruin the balance shift, or turns rather bland.
of course, they might be successful if they try hard, but well I don't think most SC veterans would really mind the lack of a new race.

[Clarste]

Originally Posted by Scorpian

Granted. However, I think they had a decent amount of time to create at least 2 new factions, considering the last game came out over ten years ago. And, there was already foreshadowing of different races when recalling the ending of the game. Call it a wild shot in the dark, but I dont think SC fans would mind the addition of a couple new races...

A rather large portion of Starcraft fans appreciate it for the fact that all the races are both extremely distinct and somewhat balanced. The more races you add the harder it becomes to balance them and the more likely you are to get some thematic overlap. Also, last I checked, games with large numbers of races end up with 4-5 races that are completely useless and that no one ever uses. Can you say that developing the useless races was actually a good use of development time?

Also, your argument assume that "more races = better game" which is frankly silly. It's certainly possible to have more than three races and have a great game, but it's just as easy to have a great game with only three races. Fundamentally this kind of argument annoys me a lot. People say things like "Oh, Warhammer will be better than WoW because it has 25 different classes!" or whatever they say. And then it turns out that the designers were forced to cut quite a few of them for the purpose of making a decent game. More is not better. It never has been.

Edit: Oh yeah, and WC3 is a good example of "more is not better" on Blizzard's side. They added a whole bunch of features and had more races, but in terms of lasting popularity it was completely overshadowed by their older Starcraft. I'm pretty sure Blizzard is taking that lesson to heart with SC2.

[Scorpian]

Originally Posted by Clarste

A rather large portion of Starcraft fans appreciate it for the fact that all the races are both extremely distinct and somewhat balanced. The more races you add the harder it becomes to balance them and the more likely you are to get some thematic overlap. Also, last I checked, games with large numbers of races end up with 4-5 races that are completely useless and that no one ever uses. Can you say that developing the useless races was actually a good use of development time?

@bolded text: No. But then again, who suggested that they should develop useless races?

You’re assuming the new races will be “useless”; it doesn’t necessarily have to be that way. Im not saying they should make 9+ new races, it was just a comparison to make a point. I implied that a couple(2 btw) of new races wouldn’t hurt as is would be refreshing lore wise and gameplay wise. The three races were very balanced and was a great back then(in fact, it is my favorite rts of all time), however, I think the developers should introduce some new elements besides improved graphics and new race abilities…

Originally Posted by Clarste

Also, your argument assume that "more races = better game" which is frankly silly.

Where did you get this equation from? When I compared SC to warhammer, that was simply for illustrating the point that it couldn’t hurt to introduce perhaps 2 new races into the game. I think it is “silly” to base your argument on assumptions rather than the necessary facts to make such a statement.

Originally Posted by Clarste

It's certainly possible to have more than three races and have a great game, but it's just as easy to have a great game with only three races. Fundamentally this kind of argument annoys me a lot.

I really don’t know what to tell you about that; but I think you’ve misinterpreted my post to some degree(not to say its completely your fault btw).

Originally Posted by Clarste

People say things like "Oh, Warhammer will be better than WoW because it has 25 different classes!" or whatever they say. And then it turns out that the designers were forced to cut quite a few of them for the purpose of making a decent game. More is not better. It never has been.

@bolded text: …Not I. I never said more was necessarily better, but I would have like to have been able to play some new factions rather than seeing the same three from the original starcraft(even thought they have new and improved abilities and units). If it was possible (and it is btw) to create a starcraft game with 5-6 races –which of course, include the original 3- and still maintain a good balance between the races, would you not prefer it over a version that is equally well balanced but with 3 races?

Originally Posted by Clarste

Edit: Oh yeah, and WC3 is a good example of "more is not better" on Blizzard's side. They added a whole bunch of features and had more races, but in terms of lasting popularity it was completely overshadowed by their older Starcraft. I'm pretty sure Blizzard is taking that lesson to heart with SC2.

Granted; however I don’t think it would be fair to place the blame for the game’s relative “unpopularity” compared to SC solely on the addition of new races. And, you seem to be very adamant about getting your “more is not better” point across, but I’m afraid your efforts are completely useless here, as I don’t believe it to be nor have I claimed it to be so.

Like you said above, it is entirely possible (even if more difficult) to create a good game with more than three races… So, why not? They certainly had the time for it; and in my opinion, it would be refreshing to play starcraft with some new races; I only suggested one or two new races in my post, I really don’t see what would be so horrible about that. More races is not necessarily better, but if implemented right, it can be.

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by Scorpian

Where did you get this equation from?

Erm... wasn't the entire point of your post that you'd prefer the addition of another faction?

[Scorpian]

Originally Posted by Keroko

Erm... wasn't the entire point of your post that you'd prefer the addition of another faction?

"Erm", more races alone does not automatically make for a better game; which is what he is implying my logic is.

Originally Posted by Keroko

Do we ponder to the fans of old, or are we going to try something new?

Actually its not as black & white as you’re making it seem and, they’ve already tried many new things – simply adding new units and abilities will radically affect the old balance of the game. Even so, as far as I can see, the game has retained much of its look and feel; it actually looks like a refined version, and I like that. I also like that they haven’t chosen the completely 3d route and it has kept its classic feel to a degree. A couple of new races would be different, but that’s not to say that the old fans wouldn’t enjoy it – especially if they took time to do it right.

Originally Posted by Clarste

The entire franchise could collapse with the addition of a new race, and Blizzard quite frankly was too cautious to take that risk. they decided to pander the safe route and give the fans what they know and love, and introduce and entire new generation of gamers to that very thing.

Even so, by the same token, not adding a new race could very possibly have the same potential to destroy the franchise. They need to find a balance between the old elements and some new ones since we are in a very different gaming scene today. The possibility of new races are as good (if not better) than any to work on. New and well implemented races would definitely please a lot of old fans out there.

(….But, on a side note, between you and I, do you really believe Blizzard to be “that” cautious? With the way they’ve been patching Warcraft, and the types of radical changes made to the game? )

[Clarste]

Originally Posted by Scorpian

Like you said above, it is entirely possible (even if more difficult) to create a good game with more than three races… So, why not? They certainly had the time for it; and in my opinion, it would be refreshing to play starcraft with some new races; I only suggested one or two new races in my post, I really don’t see what would be so horrible about that. More races is not necessarily better, but if implemented right, it can be.

Uh... this is exactly where your argument assumes that more is better. You say "why not?" while I say "why?" Even if they can make an equally good game, the fact that it has more races would have no bearing on its goodness, so why bother when it makes it more difficult for them?

You seem to have the unspoken assumption that a well-balanced game with more races is better than a equally well-balanced game with less races. Am I wrong? You say that, all else being equal, the game would be improved in your eyes if it had more races? Is that a misinterpretation?

Adding more races is a gamble. It increases development time exponentially because of the necessity of balancing them all. Quite frankly, there's no reason whatsoever to take this risk unless you assume that having more races makes for a better game, all else being equal. That's what I was arguing against, and I don't see how that's not your point. Maybe I confused the point by bringing up my past frustration where "more ____" has been repeatedly brought up as a selling point. But my main point was simply that adding more of something does not make it better in any way. Not only does more not guarantee a better game, it adds nothing to the quality of a game.

[felix]

Originally Posted by Scorpian

I implied that a couple(2 btw) of new races wouldn’t hurt as is would be refreshing lore wise and gameplay wise. The three races were very balanced and was a great back then(in fact, it is my favorite rts of all time), however, I think the developers should introduce some new elements besides improved graphics and new race abilities…

And the rest of us think you are wrong! They've already changed a lot, if they want to introduce a new race it better be in a expansion when the current elements have settled in balance quicksand.