Fate/Zero - Episode 17 Discussion / Poll

[Haak]

Kotomine's backstabbing scene sent a shiver down me spine when it was happening.

[Dr. Casey]

Originally Posted by Forever

Hmm on other news, I find the nurse, pretty cute....

Damn right she is

It brings me great sadness that she clutched the clipboard to her chest almost the entire time so we could never get a good look at her rack

edit: Wait, you posted this in the wrong thread. lol

[AmeNoJaku]

I have no idea how the pacing in the novels worked, but in the anime, it's quite awkward. The first season and the first couple of episodes in the second were spent on built-up, fillers, and pointless over-animated battles. Now we skip development and fast forward to resolution (one episode for the whole Team-Lancer and another for Tousaka).

That aside, the episode itself was excellent, having knowledge of F/SN (the game) helps a lot with the Tokiomi/Rin scene, and Kirei's treachery... but for fresh viewers it would be very hard to understand.

Anyway, I hope Team-Berserker is eliminated ASAP, to have more episodes to work with Team-Berserker and Kotomine vs. Kiritsugu.

In between, Kiritsugu really taught Shirou all his harem-management skills, and even passed on one of his members

[Forever]

Originally Posted by Dr. Casey

Damn right she is

It brings me great sadness that she clutched the clipboard to her chest almost the entire time so we could never get a good look at her rack

edit: Wait, you posted this in the wrong thread. lol

Oops didnt realise I post it in the fate/zero. Opening too many windows at a time might be a bad idea after all..

[Kanon]

Obligatory.



I find the original face even funnier though. Tokiomi never saw it coming and even as he died, he could not comprehend what had just happened to him. Why did his loyal student stab him? Why did his servant not intervene? He had no clue. Well, that's what you get when you try to screw the King of Heroes over.

Tokiomi's farewell to Rin was quite touching knowing what was going to happen. I too think he cared for his daughters in his own way, he was simply the kind of man who did not know how to display his affection. And he made horribly bad decisions, like giving his daughter up to an incredibly suspicious and ugly old man (surely, nothing bad was going to happen to her). Kirei must have had a hard time repressing his laugh when Tokiomi offered him a dagger of all things as a farewell gift. Geez, that was almost an invitation to kill him. Horrible decisions, I tell you. Staying locked up in his basement sipping wine was probably the smartest thing he's ever done in this show.

[ars89]

Kirei and Gil were awesome this ep. Little Rin was so cute.

[Vicious108]

Originally Posted by Kanon

Tokiomi's farewell to Rin was quite touching knowing what was going to happen. I too think he cared for his daughters in his own way, he was simply the kind of man who did not know how to display his affection. And he made horribly bad decisions, like giving his daughter up to an incredibly suspicious and ugly old man (surely, nothing bad was going to happen to her). Kirei must have had a hard time repressing his laugh when Tokiomi offered him a dagger of all things as a farewell gift.

And turning his back on him as soon as he does so, no less.

That's Tokiomi for you though. He was one of the most warped and out of touch characters in the show, never once questioning his tunnel vision of an archetypal magus. In the end, his unwavering sense of self-righteousness, that which had given him strength up until then, was also his downfall.

It's interesting to observe how, in two episodes, both Kayneth and Tokiomi, the two most exemplary magi in the show and the ones most in favor of the Mage's Association, have met pitiful ends. One can only speculate what's in store for those on the other end, Kiritsugu and Kariya, who are completely against the magus world.

[Student no.0]

Well that was a pretty disturbing episode near the end, and a step down for me too. Kirei's finally let his true colors show and taking the initiative as the main villain.

I don't recall they've ever straight up showed what Tokiomi and the Church were planning to do with the Grail together, unless I missed that. If not, I guess it'll be explained in later episodes.

[FlareKnight]

Well in the end Tokiomi being an absolutely horrible judge of character did him in. Couldn't see anything suspicious about the creepy Zouken when he handed his kid over and never grasped what was really going on in Kirei's mind to the very end. Just so focused on himself and his view of being a mage. Literally handed the knife that kills him and guardianship to his other daughter to Kirei. In this case can really consider him to be too stupid to live. Everything backfired on him including aiming for Gilgamesh as a servant instead of someone that might have lined up with his thinking far better.

Fairly worried for Rider's group in all of this. While there is all the fear about Kiritsugu going against Kirei, how fast would Waver get killed if either went after him? Rider's got a lot of work cut out for him fighting against the strong opponents left while not letting his master get massacred.

[chaos_alfa]

Originally Posted by Mare Boy

Well that was a pretty disturbing episode near the end, and a step down for me too. Kirei's finally let his true colors show and taking the initiative as the main villain.

I don't recall they've ever straight up showed what Tokiomi and the Church were planning to do with the Grail together, unless I missed that. If not, I guess it'll be explained in later episodes.

The Church didn't have an interest in the Grail. They just wanted to prevent it from falling in to the wrong hands.

They already had a working relationship with Tokiomi and they knew Tokiomi's goal for the Grail wasn't a destructive one. That's why they choose to support him.

[Altima of the Gates]

Originally Posted by FlareKnight

Well in the end Tokiomi being an absolutely horrible judge of character did him in. Couldn't see anything suspicious about the creepy Zouken when he handed his kid over and never grasped what was really going on in Kirei's mind to the very end. Just so focused on himself and his view of being a mage. Literally handed the knife that kills him and guardianship to his other daughter to Kirei. In this case can really consider him to be too stupid to live. Everything backfired on him including aiming for Gilgamesh as a servant instead of someone that might have lined up with his thinking far better.

Fairly worried for Rider's group in all of this. While there is all the fear about Kiritsugu going against Kirei, how fast would Waver get killed if either went after him? Rider's got a lot of work cut out for him fighting against the strong opponents left while not letting his master get massacred.

Like Kirei said, Tokiomi, for all intents and purposes, was a magus. He may have cared for Rin and Sakura, but he cared as the head of a magus family would. He took things to an extreme in his way of thinking, so when Kirei stabbed him, it was not about it being unexpected, in his mind it was totally unheard of. An apprentice murdering his trusted master? There is no logic behind it for him. Just like any magus family would love to have powerful potential like Sakura to tap and mold, they could never do something like experiment on them, except wait, there are people who do that...

His unwavering naivete and alien way of thinking make him the perfect sucker, because he doesn't have a flexible mindset.

As for Waver, well, at the very least he has a Servant who has a good head on his shoulders and a very flexible way of thinking, which has kept him alive thus far. And in a sense preparing him for what's to come by boosting his confidence.

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by FlareKnight

In this case can really consider him to be too stupid to live. Everything backfired on him including aiming for Gilgamesh as a servant instead of someone that might have lined up with his thinking far better.

well the toshksa family motto is "we screw up" the entire family is know for screwing things up.

[Haak]

Let's not be too harsh on Tokiomi. He really had no reason to suspect that a trusted student and friend would go and do that especially since Kotomine is from the church which Tokiomi has always had good relations with. I even wonder if Kotomine would have done that had Gilgamesh not shown an interest in him from the beginning. Kotomine did consider Tokiomi a friend as well. The only way Tokiomi could've seen it coming is if he was perceptive enough to realise there was something odd about Kotomine and that's asking a lot. After all, not even Kotomine's own father truly understood him. Bazette never suspected a thing either. The only one's who suspected so far are Kiritsugu and Gilgamesh and only because they're slightly warped in their own ways.

But yeah Tokiomi giving a dagger as a sign of trust to a guy that chooses to literally back-stab him with said sign of trust, mere seconds later...
If there was a stat for "Irony" then that scene would get an EX Rank...

Tokiomi clearly isn't very Genre Savvy, but then again if he were then he probably would've realised he was already raising his own death flag when he gave that book to Rin.

[erneiz_hyde]

I don't know if this is a spoiler or not, and I'm leaving it in the hands of the mod to decide. but I'm curious:

Spoiler for in case:

So, did Tokiomi manage to plant the Tohsaka magic crest on to Rin? When is that?

[Vicious108]

Originally Posted by Haak

The only way Tokiomi could've seen it coming is if he was perceptive enough to realise there was something odd about Kotomine and that's asking a lot.

Really? A lot? Their very first scene together in this episode consisted of Tokiomi being overcome with anger and revolt at Risei's death, whereas Kirei, the man's own son, did not bat an eye and remained completely impassive when faced with the loss of his father.

Moreover, in the very first episode, Tokiomi confessed that it was almost unsettling how easily Kirei accepted participating in the Holy Grail War, considering he was essentially being dragged into a conflict which had nothing to do with him. Maybe that should have tipped him off a little that his dear student might actually possess or eventually develop some personal interest in it.

Now I wasn't expecting Tokiomi to take severe precautions against him or anything, but it really would've been common sense to slightly suspect something was off about the guy. But, of course, Tokiomi and common sense - really - don't go hand in hand.

[mAc Chaos]

^Well, at that point they had already been friends for three years. And people react differently to death. Maybe Kotomine was just numb from shock.

[DragoZERO]

Whoa. A lot happened in this episode even though it didn't feel like it. Really sucks how Tokiomi just died like that without getting into the fray more.

This episode was too very focused on Kirei. Even the end. We didn't get a scene change to Rin or anything to incur sadness, instead we saw Kirei fall even deeper. I'm not complaining since it fits quite well, mind you.

I will complain about one thing (as I usually do) his eyes bugged out a bit too much.

Anyway, next episode will be good. Finally something that we won't know is going to happen.

Originally Posted by Haak

Kotomine's backstabbing scene sent a shiver down me spine when it was happening.

My heart was beating really fast. I was waiting for it to happen, wondering how he'd do it.

[ChronoReverse]

Originally Posted by Endless Twilight

Now I wasn't expecting Tokiomi to take severe precautions against him or anything, but it really would've been common sense to slightly suspect something was off about the guy. But, of course, Tokiomi and common sense - really - don't go hand in hand.

The most important thing is that Archer was with Tokiomi. As mentioned, Tokiomi would've had his guard up otherwise if he wasn't in his own home with Archer sitting right there. If Archer had been loyal, even if someone fired bullets at Tokiomi from behind it would've been useless.

[Aqua Knight]

Why save Kariya only then to kill Tokiomi?

Yeah, and episode felt really rushed.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by Aqua Knight

Why save Kariya only then to kill Tokiomi?

.

Save Kariya then kill Tokiomi to troll Kariya for maximum lulz. That's what I am guessing. I mean, Kariya would jump at the chance to take revenge on Tokiomi if Kotomine tells him that he have Tokiomi, and omit to tell him he is already dead. He saved Kariya, he knows the weaker links in the Tohsaka family, and he knows where the Einzbern are hiding. He have all the cards in hand for the master troll plan to amuse Gilgamesh.