Aldnoah.Zero - generic discussion thread

[Wandering Soul]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Characters effectively helping the male lead succeed = Useless characters?

Frankly, that makes no sense at all to me.


.

I think the problem here is that most people are using Useless when they really mean they think the characters are easily replaceable and not very important. I know you just had a similar argument but I think the problem here is that Inaho's classmates and several people on the ship haven't shown any traits that make them different from any other mook other than having a name and face. The reason they are surviving these encounters is because they are following Inaho's orders where all the other soldiers we have seen getting slaughtered were following someone else's orders. If those mooks were following Inaho's orders then most of the people you are arguing with are saying that wouldn't see any difference in the result.

For example going along with the Lelouch example you used what traits did Lelouch have that made him different than your average black knight? He had the geass, a great strategic mind, connections with Britannia, a relationship with an Immortal being that knew several of Britannia's secrets, the loyalty of an assassin that also had a geass and few other things. A standard black knight either doesn't have these things or not nearly to the extent that Lelouch does.

Or to use L-ELf he was the only one on the module with a military background, was a famous solider, was a great strategist, knew how to run a army, and had connections with Drossia. Not something any one on the module had.

Inaho's observation skills, knowledge,and strategic are things that so far no other solider in Aldnoah zero seems to have.

To make my point clear I am not trying to say Inaho is perfect I fully acknowledge he needed help. My point is that it seems to me that the reason people are dismissing Inaho's friends is that they haven't show any trait other than having a name, a face, and the fact that they are following Inaho's plans that makes them any different from any other mook. Just what I think people mean when they say useless.

[Darthtabby]

You may note I used the word "overshadowed" not "useless." Granted as a main character Inaho may be expected to overshadow the secondary characters to some degree, but he pretty much completely overshadows everyone else on the Terran side. Can you think of anything any of his companions have done which you would actually consider an impressive feat on its own?

That being said, Inaho displaying his tactical brilliance in Episode 3 was a show defining moment for me (even though it felt a bit out of the blue).

[Rokumonsen]

The dynamic between Inaho and Slaine reminds me of Kira and Shinn, for some reason.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by the one above all

For example going along with the Lelouch example you used what traits did Lelouch have that made him different than your average black knight? He had the geass, a great strategic mind, connections with Britannia, a relationship with an Immortal being that knew several of Britannia's secrets, the loyalty of an assassin that also had a geass and few other things. A standard black knight either doesn't have these things or not nearly to the extent that Lelouch does.

Or to use L-ELf he was the only one on the module with a military background, was a famous solider, was a great strategist, knew how to run a army, and had connections with Drossia. Not something any one on the module had.

Did you just compare flawed characters with charismatic personalities like L-Elf and Lelouch with certain someone I wouldn't name?

[Wandering Soul]

Originally Posted by Thess

Did you just compare flawed characters with charismatic personalities like L-Elf and Lelouch with certain someone I wouldn't name?

I was pointing out that all three characters have traits and assets that make them valuable to their army and that is why all three characters aren't seen as easily replaceable or insignificant to the point where they can be replaced by faceless mooks and nothing would change.

No offense but I'm getting the feeling that you ignored the rest of what I typed and sorta focused on the part where I brought up Lelouch and L-Elf. If not I was trying to be clear about what I meant but I guess I wasn't.

[wisteria233]

Originally Posted by the one above all

I think the problem here is that most people are using Useless when they really mean they think the characters are easily replaceable and not very important. I know you just had a similar argument but I think the problem here is that Inaho's classmates and several people on the ship haven't shown any traits that make them different from any other mook other than having a name and face. The reason they are surviving these encounters is because they are following Inaho's orders where all the other soldiers we have seen getting slaughtered were following someone else's orders. If those mooks were following Inaho's orders then most of the people you are arguing with are saying that wouldn't see any difference in the result.

For example going along with the Lelouch example you used what traits did Lelouch have that made him different than your average black knight? He had the geass, a great strategic mind, connections with Britannia, a relationship with an Immortal being that knew several of Britannia's secrets, the loyalty of an assassin that also had a geass and few other things. A standard black knight either doesn't have these things or not nearly to the extent that Lelouch does.

Or to use L-ELf he was the only one on the module with a military background, was a famous solider, was a great strategist, knew how to run a army, and had connections with Drossia. Not something any one on the module had.

Inaho's observation skills, knowledge,and strategic are things that so far no other solider in Aldnoah zero seems to have.

To make my point clear I am not trying to say Inaho is perfect I fully acknowledge he needed help. My point is that it seems to me that the reason people are dismissing Inaho's friends is that they haven't show any trait other than having a name, a face, and the fact that they are following Inaho's plans that makes them any different from any other mook. Just what I think people mean when they say useless.

I think this in general is one of the biggest criticisms I have the head writer Takayama is his need to have Inaho be the absolute best at everything, I think that's the silent ace soldier trope too far. Usually most mecha anime give characters specialties and give the main tactician deficiencies for good reason, because you want to make the whole cast shine, but it seems like Takayama either forgot or wasn't aware of that. But then again that's just my gripe about the writing in general.

[desrtsku]

Originally Posted by the one above all

-snip-

Yes, yes, that's exactly how I perceive it. That's a pretty clear explanation you get there.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by the one above all

I was pointing out that all three characters have traits and assets that make them valuable to their army and that is why all three characters aren't seen as easily replaceable or insignificant to the point where they can be replaced by faceless mooks and nothing would change.

No offense but I'm getting the feeling that you ignored the rest of what I typed and sorta focused on the part where I brought up Lelouch and L-Elf. If not I was trying to be clear about what I meant but I guess I wasn't.

I'm not ignoring anything. Lelouch and L-Elf had good narrative reasons to be who they are and balanced their competence from lacking something deeply. Lelouch was show as a genius, son of a family of geniuses and conquerors since the beginning. L-Elf was a child soldier who was a member of an elite army squad group who had a high military ranking at his age since introduction. Lelouch was a poor fit physically and didn't pilot to balance his strategy genius; L-Elf was kept from piloting the Valvrave (and any robot even if he was the obvious superior pilot) in the show to balance him plus his people's skills were atrocious until the very end (cd drama) that he's learning... so atrocious Saki called on him in that cd drama about how he can't communicate and this generated problems to them.

Inaho's an "ordinary high school student" without any background or special backstory to support his valuable asset card. In fact, he lacks the flaws and challenges those two characters have (and any sort of charisma which also played in how they wormed themselves a place) yet he's obeyed and followed unquestionably for no reason. L-Elf didn't count with help until episode 8 and even then, he didn't gain everyone's trust until the Earth mission in season 2. Lelouch had his low and ups including betrayal within his faction. Neither Lelouch nor L-Elf counted with support as easily as Inaho since the beginning. Any opposition he had was dismissed immediately. He can also do anything: he can pilot the robot, he can get a group of friends despite his "personality" and their blind trust.

No offense, but your examples are poorly chosen and I find offensive to compare two beloved characters with you know who.

[vieri32]

no point in insisting, it is clear that the preference of the User above
is by characters who possess master and servant relationship.
Mentions several times that the character to be well written precissa errs, as a certain character that makes bullshit in all episodes.
The case fan Slaine exceeded all bounds, turned fanaticism.
A lot of lack of respect, I think everyone has the right to enjoy his character. Remembering only that amount of fans, is not a sign of quality, if that were true China would be world champion football all year.
No one is obligated to like a character 'Emo' suffering torture and humiliation fan of children's fairy tale, and who knows nothing about the real world. A character who has a history of fairy tale, as if by magic, one fugete falls in the bathroom of a princess who saved his life story typical shoujo manga, there is amiginho the princess, and teaches on the land, a land wonderful and magic, without wars, betrayals among other things reiais more things taken from a fairy tale.
Slaine would be a good protagonist for shoujo manga because its history background fits well, more geared towards the female púlblico.
Forgive me most in my opinion, Slaine is one of the worst anime character I've ever watched.

No use telling me that to be well-written character precissa, failing in all attempts to do, be a loyal servant, suffer torture and humiliation.

[Sixth]

Lelouch is king of ground. He exploits ground attack to defeat his opponents, even if you are at the sky.

How about Inaho? Is he King of Sea? So far, he defeated 2 opponents by exploiting the sea. I wonder, will he put the same feat as Lelocuh; using sea to defeat flying units.

[Alf]

Originally Posted by noobita

Lelouch is king of ground. He exploits ground attack to defeat his opponents, even if you are at the sky.

How about Inaho? Is he King of Sea? So far, he defeated 2 opponents by exploiting the sea. I wonder, will he put the same feat as Lelocuh; using sea to defeat flying units.

No, he's the Hero of Thousand Faces, using different weapons everytime. From sea water, cargos, to plain choice of bullets and armours

By the way, I'm not sure how did Lelouch learn to blow up the map, surely not from chess

[Thess]

Originally Posted by Alf

By the way, I'm not sure how did Lelouch learn to blow up the map, surely not from chess

He was the heir apparent of an Empire before his exile. He had the education for it.

[wisteria233]

Originally Posted by Alf

No, he's the Hero of Thousand Faces, using different weapons everytime. From sea water, cargos, to plain choice of bullets and armours

By the way, I'm not sure how did Lelouch learn to blow up the map, surely not from chess

In Code Geass it seemed like certain members of the royal family received that kind of education. I remember there being something about Lelouch giving information to Genbu in return for him not marrying Nanally

[Alf]

Yet no other royal member used such tactic. That's alright.

Yeah, Inaho just learned all his combat skills by military training at school.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by Alf

Yet no other royal member used such tactic. That's alright.

Except all his siblings (or at least the talented ones) conquered several territories? He was also the heir to the throne for a while.

[wisteria233]

Originally Posted by Alf

Yet no other royal member used such tactic. That's alright.

Yeah, Inaho just learned all his combat skills by military training at school.

The ones who were involved in the military did.

But to get that good you would have to have some kind of training specializing in that field, it seems and Inaho doesn't have that.

[Spags]

Originally Posted by Thess

Inaho's an "ordinary high school student" without any background or special backstory to support his valuable asset card.

Can we drop this whole "Ordinary High School Student" bullcrap. Ordinary High School students don't get Military Training and Kat Piloting Classes. Inaho just paid attention unlike 90% of most students who goof off during classes. (As explained by Inko, when Calm didn't make Pilot, and Inaho himself while giving CPR) Now I'm not saying Inaho should be perfect just because he paid attention in school, but if you look at Inaho you can always see him browsing for knowldge. He is constantly reinforcing what he knows, and looking for things he doesn't know. This is the biggest difference between him and his classmates, and what I believe to be his biggest strengh. His mind is constantly thinking and evaluating and learning, and this is why he is able to approach situations the way he does. Otherwise hes not really that perfect of a character, his supporting crew just doesn't do enough to not make him look less amazing, and on that point I agree with the majority that they could have been written better.

Originally Posted by wisteria233

The ones who were involved in the military did.

But to get that good you would have to have some kind of training specializing in that field, it seems and Inaho doesn't have that.

Again this is incorrect their school life consist mostly of this training... Its explained in Episode 1, Earth for 15 years has been preparing for this and that does include high school students who would undoubtly be drafted. Read my point above on why I believe Inaho to be above his average classmates though!

[Thess]

Originally Posted by Spags

Can we drop this whole "Ordinary High School Student" bullcrap. .

Not really, his education was ordinary in his world, so he's an ordinary high school student.

[wisteria233]

Originally Posted by Spags

Can we drop this whole "Ordinary High School Student" bullcrap. Ordinary High School students don't get Military Training and Kat Piloting Classes. Inaho just paid attention unlike 90% of most students who goof off during classes. (As explained by Inko, when Calm didn't make Pilot) Now I'm not saying Inaho should be perfect just because he paid attention in school, but if you look at Inaho you can always see him browsing for knowldge. He is constantly reinforcing what he knows, and looking for things he doesn't know. This is the biggest difference between him and his classmates, and what I believe to be his biggest strengh. His mind is constantly thinking and evaluating and learning, and this is why he is able to approach situations the way he does. Otherwise hes not really that perfect of a character, his supporting crew just doesn't do enough to not make him look less amazing, and on that point I agree with the majority that they could have been written better.

Normality is defined by the norm set up by the world building for a series. In A/Z a normal high school student has military training, that was established from episode 1.

Also going by the writer's interviews it seems as though they did want to him to be normal and yet also a take on the silent mecha anime protagonist trope. How well they are actually doing in depicting that type of character is up for you to decide.

Again this is incorrect their school life consist mostly of this training... Its explained in Episode 1, Earth for 15 years has been preparing for this and that does include high school students who would undoubtly be drafted. Read my point above on why I believe Inaho to be above his average classmate though!

Again no, Inaho never received any more training than his other classmates. Thing is Inaho received general military training, not specialized.

[Thess]

L-Elf had a more intense and specialized training under Cain himself ("greatest masterpiece") than his companions (who at times were capable of match him as A-drei demostrated) while Lelouch had to survive without royal support and he was the next-in-line heir to the throne for a while, so he received specialized education (whose siblings at times matched or suppressed him like Schneizel demonstrated).