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Old 2004-09-03, 21:00   Link #1
Grona
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Join Date: Apr 2004
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Chechnyan Hostage Situation

I'm suprised no one has started a thread on that whole hostage thing started by the Chechnyans. Its unbeleaveable that those animals started the chain of events that led to the explosion at the school by shooting at several children trying to escape.

Any pitty I felt for the plight of the women who lost their husbands and did the same in a theater in Moscow is gone. They're terrorists and I hope any other that attempt anything like this meet the same fate.
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Old 2004-09-03, 23:12   Link #2
Cz
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It sucks that some people resort to such a thing. This one kinda reminded me of the computer game Tom Clancy's Rainbow Six: Rogue Spear. If such a covert organization exists, they should do the job instead of the Russian army, which did not handle the things well. Last I read in the news, at least 200 people were dead.
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Old 2004-09-04, 00:21   Link #3
Lord Raiden
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Well, part of that was because everyone was in tight quarters and the rebels just started blasting people and blowing them away while the special forces tried to break in. The way they apparently had the hostages grouped together if the special forces hadn't come in when they did, the body count would have been MUCH higher. Heck, when the special forces stormed the building these rebels started mowing down kids and throwing grenades into a gymnasium full of them, plus they used bombs and all kinda other stuff. Their soul goal from the beginning I think was maximum terror, death, and destruction. I seriously doubt they had any plans to get out of their alive. They wanted to take the maximum number of people with them and die marters for a madman.
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Old 2004-09-04, 01:51   Link #4
HK anime seeker
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Raiden
Well, part of that was because everyone was in tight quarters and the rebels just started blasting people and blowing them away while the special forces tried to break in. The way they apparently had the hostages grouped together if the special forces hadn't come in when they did, the body count would have been MUCH higher. Heck, when the special forces stormed the building these rebels started mowing down kids and throwing grenades into a gymnasium full of them, plus they used bombs and all kinda other stuff. Their soul goal from the beginning I think was maximum terror, death, and destruction. I seriously doubt they had any plans to get out of their alive. They wanted to take the maximum number of people with them and die marters for a madman.
That’s just sad; all the terrorist want is to kill off people in the name of whatever it is. To me terrorist and militia are just angry unemployed people that release there stress by doing stupid things
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Old 2004-09-04, 03:00   Link #5
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First off, I applaud the Russian President for not negotiating with them. Not only was it the right decision but it will be more benifical in the long run. Even if they kill all the children and hostages they won't have their demands filled and few others will ever consider a similar strategy seeing how poorly it works out. Second of all, what the hell are you people saying? Seriously, I doubt a single one of you has even the slightest of clues as to why the Chechens are doing this. 200 people dead, that's all? To quel the Chechen's indendancy movement the Russians preformed wholesale slaughter of the Chechnens. Over 100,000 have been confirmed dead with an additional ~100,000 still missing, many of which are women and children from a country with a population not much larger than 800,000 when it all started. Did I mention that many of the women who weren't killed were raped and beaten to the verge of death?

A hand grenade in a gymnasium versus the nerve gas the Russians used on Chechen cities, a couple hundred deaths versus the hundreds of thousands of dead, dying and missing. At this point there is little the Chechens can do that would be comparable to what the Russians have done to them. These people want freedom, but those vocal about it tend to be found dead in the morning or just disappear entirely only to turn up in a mass grave a couple months later. Their cities and infrastructure have been destroyed, all their industries have been demolished. The Russians have bombed their hospitals and schools, terrorized their people, done some things that could be considered war crimes and even tried some of their soldier for war crimes.

Correct me if I'm wrong on this but when did independance and freedom from oppression become the goals of madmen and 'angry unemployed people that release [their] stress by doing stupid things'? To think along those lines would undermine some of the greatest moments in American history, the histories of countless other nations and nearly every social revolution in human history.

Now don't misunderstand, I don't support their current actions (I honestly believe they should all be lined up and publicly executed for endangering the lives of children). But to blame one side exclusively when boths sides of the conflict have been terrorizing each other for years is a large over sight. Also, I would strongly advise against comparing the situation to one you saw in a game.
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Old 2004-09-04, 03:43   Link #6
LoveOfAnime
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr_Paper
First off, I applaud the Russian President for not negotiating with them. Not only was it the right decision but it will be more benifical in the long run. Even if they kill all the children and hostages they won't have their demands filled and few others will ever consider a similar strategy seeing how poorly it works out. Second of all, what the hell are you people saying? Seriously, I doubt a single one of you has even the slightest of clues as to why the Chechens are doing this. 200 people dead, that's all? To quel the Chechen's indendancy movement the Russians preformed wholesale slaughter of the Chechnens. Over 100,000 have been confirmed dead with an additional ~100,000 still missing, many of which are women and children from a country with a population not much larger than 800,000 when it all started. Did I mention that many of the women who weren't killed were raped and beaten to the verge of death?

A hand grenade in a gymnasium versus the nerve gas the Russians used on Chechen cities, a couple hundred deaths versus the hundreds of thousands of dead, dying and missing. At this point there is little the Chechens can do that would be comparable to what the Russians have done to them. These people want freedom, but those vocal about it tend to be found dead in the morning or just disappear entirely only to turn up in a mass grave a couple months later. Their cities and infrastructure have been destroyed, all their industries have been demolished. The Russians have bombed their hospitals and schools, terrorized their people, done some things that could be considered war crimes and even tried some of their soldier for war crimes.

Correct me if I'm wrong on this but when did independance and freedom from oppression become the goals of madmen and 'angry unemployed people that release [their] stress by doing stupid things'? To think along those lines would undermine some of the greatest moments in American history, the histories of countless other nations and nearly every social revolution in human history.

Now don't misunderstand, I don't support their current actions (I honestly believe they should all be lined up and publicly executed for endangering the lives of children). But to blame one side exclusively when boths sides of the conflict have been terrorizing each other for years is a large over sight. Also, I would strongly advise against comparing the situation to one you saw in a game.
Thank You ~ Very well said. I agree completely!
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Old 2004-09-04, 06:28   Link #7
HK anime seeker
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr_Paper
First off, I applaud the Russian President for not negotiating with them. Not only was it the right decision but it will be more benifical in the long run. Even if they kill all the children and hostages they won't have their demands filled and few others will ever consider a similar strategy seeing how poorly it works out. Second of all, what the hell are you people saying? Seriously, I doubt a single one of you has even the slightest of clues as to why the Chechens are doing this. 200 people dead, that's all? To quel the Chechen's indendancy movement the Russians preformed wholesale slaughter of the Chechnens. Over 100,000 have been confirmed dead with an additional ~100,000 still missing, many of which are women and children from a country with a population not much larger than 800,000 when it all started. Did I mention that many of the women who weren't killed were raped and beaten to the verge of death?

A hand grenade in a gymnasium versus the nerve gas the Russians used on Chechen cities, a couple hundred deaths versus the hundreds of thousands of dead, dying and missing. At this point there is little the Chechens can do that would be comparable to what the Russians have done to them. These people want freedom, but those vocal about it tend to be found dead in the morning or just disappear entirely only to turn up in a mass grave a couple months later. Their cities and infrastructure have been destroyed, all their industries have been demolished. The Russians have bombed their hospitals and schools, terrorized their people, done some things that could be considered war crimes and even tried some of their soldier for war crimes.

Correct me if I'm wrong on this but when did independance and freedom from oppression become the goals of madmen and 'angry unemployed people that release [their] stress by doing stupid things'? To think along those lines would undermine some of the greatest moments in American history, the histories of countless other nations and nearly every social revolution in human history.

Now don't misunderstand, I don't support their current actions (I honestly believe they should all be lined up and publicly executed for endangering the lives of children). But to blame one side exclusively when boths sides of the conflict have been terrorizing each other for years is a large over sight. Also, I would strongly advise against comparing the situation to one you saw in a game.
Games are games. It doesn't matter who is killing who or how many are killed.

In this age it’s about negations over a table without hostages. The terrorist are stressed and pissed that no one is listening to them either because they are going through the wrong channels or there cause is wrong in the first place. There is the U.N to go to and even the press if you want to free you country forms your oppressors. If it doesn’t help then just live with it, you’re dealing with Russia now and they aren’t affected by causalities and other mumbo jumbo that the media conjure up.

If this was like the Taiwan / China situation then this would have been different but your talking about a bunch of unemployed against a government here.
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Old 2004-09-04, 06:48   Link #8
Ending
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I have said my piece HERE.

(Some news links there too )
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Old 2004-09-04, 16:37   Link #9
Mr_Paper
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HK anime seeker
The terrorist are stressed and pissed that no one is listening to them either because they are going through the wrong channels or there cause is wrong in the first place.
It's not that no one is listening to them, the issue is that when they speak out they're killed - no one is given the chance to listen. The wrong channels? Shortly before the beginning of the decade long conflict the government of Chechnya held a referendum about whether to seek independance from Russia or not after the collapse of the Soviet state. When the motion passed by majority in a state wide vote the proposal was put before the Russian government and their response was to send in the military and crush them. They persued independance through legal and internationally accepted methods, they didn't use the wrong channels.

I'll ignore your statement about freedom from oppression (a basic human right) being a wrong cause as it sounds like blatany ignorance.

Quote:
There is the U.N to go to and even the press if you want to free you country forms your oppressors. If it doesn’t help then just live with it, you’re dealing with Russia now and they aren’t affected by causalities and other mumbo jumbo that the media conjure up.
Haha... Go to the UN...

Here's the thing, only independant nations can take part in the UN. The state of Chechnya, if it desired representation in the UN, would have to do so through the Russian government they're currently in conflict with. Wouldn't that just be their best chance to have their situation told in an objective and non-biased manner? How should they go about securing media support? The Russian government has strictly enforced a policy of allowing absolutely no media coverage of the situation within Chechnya. You can face jail time for just bringing a camera into the country, of course you're more like to be shot and killed by them before they arrest you. Then again, that too could just be dismissed as 'mumbo jumbo that the media conjure up.'

Quote:
If this was like the Taiwan / China situation then this would have been different but your talking about a bunch of unemployed against a government here.
Yes if this was an independant nation claiming that another independant nation was part of it it would be different. But this is a state wishing to seperate from a country they didn't want to be part of in the first place. Yes they're unemployed, but why? Before the conflict the state had an unemployment rate below 3%. As the state is now, largely under Russian military rule, with their industries in ruins the unemployment rate is a staggering 90%, this is largely and almost entirely due to the Russians. They can't help being unemployed, their current cirmunstances were not by their choosing.
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Old 2004-09-04, 17:24   Link #10
Ialdaboth
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Terrorism = weapon of the poor. Some countries have uranium enriched bullets and bombs, others have not. Both kill innocent people.

This being said, i would say like Mr_paper i'm glad that mr Poutin didn't negociated with them. No russian schools would be safe anymore if he had.
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Old 2004-09-04, 17:27   Link #11
Mr_Paper
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ialdaboth
That being said, i would say like Mr_paper that i'm glad that mr Poutin didn't negociated with them. No russian schools would be safe anymore if he had.
If he had I could see it becoming very much like the airline hijackings in the sixties and seventies.
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Old 2004-09-04, 19:19   Link #12
ElvenPath
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It looks like the chechen rebels are hanging with the wrong people.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CNN
In addition, 26 hostage-takers -- including 10 people from Arab countries -- and at least 10 Russian Special Forces troops died.
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Old 2004-09-04, 19:42   Link #13
Grona
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ialdaboth
This being said, i would say like Mr_paper i'm glad that mr Poutin didn't negociated with them. No russian schools would be safe anymore if he had.
Exactly, it isnt like the country is well off enough to do what a country like Canada or the usa would. Its lose lose, it might of saved lives this time but trash like that would just keep doing it over and over if they got any slack.


And am I the only one who thinks that a certain warmonger is probably drooling over the prospect of people "from Arab countries" involved?
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Old 2004-09-04, 20:09   Link #14
Voltage
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Russia is going through sort of a civil war within their own country. It's not like another country from outside their borders are attacking them. The chechens want independence, but I do disagree with what they did. Basically they stuffed everybody into the gymnasium, so imagine being worse off than a sardine. Most of the survivors came out with no clothing, they took them off since it was so hot in the gymnasium. If what mr_paper said was right, that the Russians killed 100's of thousands of chechens, then they too, have a fault in this. The first recorded use of Guerilla tactics was by the United States of America during the revolutionary war, against England. I find it surprising that Chechens use women as suicide bombers though.
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Old 2004-09-06, 09:24   Link #15
Grona
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Old 2004-09-07, 17:28   Link #16
Green˛
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If there's anything that I have learned, it is that time can be the greatest of enemy. I've seen the video recordings that the media displayed that was confiscated from those terrorist. Those trip wires and pressured switched mines take a long assed time to properly set up.

That means that should any similar incidents take place, one could expect the law enforcement to charge in immediately with guns blazing. It also means that the victims should do everything possible to slow down the terrorist operation. Thus to prolong the terrorist attempt of control and minimizing the risk of further victim casualties as the law enforcement engages the terrorist,.. unless it's a air attack, then the victims will need to fend for themselves.
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Old 2004-09-08, 00:12   Link #17
Kamui4356
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Voltage
The first recorded use of Guerilla tactics was by the United States of America during the revolutionary war, against England.
Actually germanic people used guerilla tactics to ambush and destroy 3 roman legions in the 3rd century. There were, of course, earilier uses, but it's the eariliest time I can think of without doing any research.


Anyway the Chechnen rebels are not using guerilla tactics, they have resorted to terrorism. If they were planting bombs on military bases, assassinating russian soldiers in the street, or blowing up a russian weapons factory, then their actions could be considered a part of a guerilla campaign against an occupying power. However, when they blow up apartment buildings, planes, and subway stations, when they take hostages in a theater or school, then they are just terrorists who should be hunted down.
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Old 2004-09-10, 07:09   Link #18
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Gurella tactics I respect and admire. It shows a dedication to your cause, often putting your soldiers in great harm to kill off important enemies.

Terrorism I see as simply foolish. You loose more support than you would ever gain doing so. God, I wish I could remember the country. I was having a discussion with a professor on terrism therories, who did contract work for the goverment occasionly. He mentioned the only terrorist group to succecced in thier goals.

they wanted to over throw the newly elected goverment, as they saw it as a puppet goverment. so they did the standard killing of civilians, bombing busses and bussness ect. The goverment was ineffective at stoping them using currently leagle means. So a military Coup took place. A general proclamed himself as a dictatory, and systmaticly hunted down and killed every one associated with the terroists. . . They got what they wanted, the newly elected but weak goverment was outsed, and a strong military dictator was setup in place.

If you are willing to stand up, fight and die for what you belive in, GREAT. Only be sure the people you are fighting aginst are the people trying to deny you want you want. Less you are just going to gain support aginst yourself, bringing about your own downfall.
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Old 2004-09-10, 17:29   Link #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ialdaboth
Terrorism = weapon of the poor. Some countries have uranium enriched bullets and bombs, others have not. Both kill innocent people.

This being said, i would say like Mr_paper i'm glad that mr Poutin didn't negociated with them. No russian schools would be safe anymore if he had.
i see a few discrepancies here(other than typographical), abd i just thought you should be made aware of them.

1) enriched uranium isnt used in the making of any bullets, that would be depleted uranium, but i think you meant to say that anyway.... right?

and just because some less fortunate countries dont have uranium bullets or bombs, doesnt mean they both kill innocent people- japan and austraila dont have Nukes, but their homicide rate is astoundingly low.

yes [/critique]

is it just me or is it that only in russia do a large amount of people die when the situation goes south. (kursk, the theater incident, this one, cherynobyl...)

gripe about news:

while the incident was in progress, i traveled up to Northern california to do some camping. the only paper available was the "san fransisco chronicle (i think)"... while this terrorist situation was playing out, what was on the front page? little kids crying? troops storming the school? nope.. ... it was a Political rally. the hostage article was smashed in the bottom corner.

anyone know why this was so?
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Old 2004-09-10, 19:56   Link #20
Grona
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hobobaggins
gripe about news:

while the incident was in progress, i traveled up to Northern california to do some camping. the only paper available was the "san fransisco chronicle (i think)"... while this terrorist situation was playing out, what was on the front page? little kids crying? troops storming the school? nope.. ... it was a Political rally. the hostage article was smashed in the bottom corner.

anyone know why this was so?
Small papers dont usualy (i'm assuming its a small paper) just dont cover that sort of thing. Our only paper around here never even had it on the front page at all. I guess they just dont bother since people hear about it from larger sources, and local news is just in more demand. Of course I hardly heard anything about the rape comitted by american solders on any of the news stations (except Newsworld twice) and certanly not in print. So I guess its a matter of what they want to print.
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