Magic and Technology of MGLN

[MeisterBabylon]

tl;dr, you guys remember that the TSAB presence on Midchilda were being made lame due to the schemes of the High Council deshou? Had it been any other day, all the proper protocol would've been followed...

...and don't give me anything about how this would've never gotten through in a proper democracy. Prior to mid-StrikerS, TSAB really is a militaristic totalitarian government in disguise.

Oh and don't be so confident about democracies either. Remember our credit crisis? Madoff? Sometimes, it's just humans being stupid.

[Keroko]

By all means, do explain what our current credit crisis, which was caused by banks, has anything to do with democracy?

But no, democracies aren't all powerful either. Our current prime minister is not the most shining example, and yet he managed to get himself elected as such.

Also, a democracy is a form of government elected by the people, something which StrikerS obviously does not have. What it being ruled by the military and all.

[arkhangelsk]

Originally Posted by Keroko

I was also attracted by the military setting, and I don't think it needs to be said that I am hardly a military expert. The logic behind the military setting was most likely to move the series away from the typical Magical Girl feeling and into a more serious tone. However, that doesn't mean that military buffs are suddenly among the target audience, more like people who like a military side-dish. Kind of like how the wide diversity of weapons isn't meant to attract people hell-bent on realistic displays of combat, but who like to see a wide diversity of weapons in combat.

If the military side is a side-dish, it is one that makes its eaters head to the washroom to regurgitate and sours any good the main dish is. Obviously, this is most unacceptable for a side-dish...

Fate has been brought down by more experienced fighters. Her first fight in A's against Signum was not exactly a stunning victory, Lotte in defeated her in a single blow a few episodes later. The manga had her lose against a AA rank teacher and the more experienced Chrono, and StrikerS had her tied up and left to Jail's mercy. Yet, as Jimmy said, all the result was that it made their enemies more powerful or skilled, it did not make Fate incompetent.

Now why is Fate not seen as incompetent? The answer is simple, despite her losses on the field of battle, in the end she always came out victorious. The same thing goes for the TSAB. Despite their loss against Jail's terrorist attack, they came out victorious in the end.

Doesn't the fact that people are still grumbling even after the TSAB won show a dent in this theory - obviously, "acceptable" losses are not quite as clear cut as the final result only.

The biggest part in whether a loss or an un-necessarily hard win is acceptable is whether you can sell your audience into believing that there was nothing that can be done. They didn't manage to do it for Ep16 and Ep21. I'll have skipped your last example because that last one was quite controversial in its own right with its stupid "touching" save and all. It might have passed muster in a pure Magical Girl show but people's mood changed due to its military setting and the fact Fate is now 19, not 9 - now she just looks weak.

But they DID manage to do it for the examples you showed. In fact, the first example in particular was almost written by a lawyer trying to exonerate Fate from any such accusation. We show her doing reasonably against Vita. Then we see Signum being so tough she just stands there and takes direct hits without effect and being able to blast Fate into walls. As if all this wasn't enough, 3 episodes later, Fate gets a rematch armed with cartridges and a toughened device and draws even.

Lotte was pure surprise. Surprise is good. It not only exonerates the hero for the failure, it makes the villain look more villanous. I still have worse vibes of Aria and Lotte than Regius, Graham, Scarlietti and only a bit better than Precia. And they even wrote a lawyer's statement for that one too, about Aria and Lotte hiding so well even ship's scanners can't find them - the implications are obvious.

Chrono's victory was paved carefully too. He's a skilled hero in his own right (he hadn't been sidelined yet). They show him at a higher rank.

The teacher they decided to invert the Show, not Tell rule. This is the final defence. In a situation where you can't plausibly show your characters losing, but it is vital that they do, just SAY they did and make all as murky as possible, and let your readers plot their best rationalization. It is better than drawing it out and f*cking up.

If they did half as well in handling the losses in Ep16 as they did in your examples, it might have escaped such criticisms.

We know the writers did not do their research, we know that realistically speaking the TSAB is horribly incompetent, however for the purpose of the story, the TSAB is competent. It is an organization that has rediscovered dimensional travel

It was lost?

and controls dozens of worlds, while keeping an eye on dozens more. If it was horribly incompetent, it would have fallen long ago, and the story of Nanoha would not exist.

Whatever its competences were, they definitely weren't in the military field. Competence is relative, however, and if everyone is equally incompetent, the most resourceful side (generally the TSAB) wins.

Brute force can make all the difference in melee combat, depending on the weapon. It won't do you any good with a rapier, but with hammers and axes, it can be the decisive key. Zest's weapon type is technically in between, being that it is a polearm-type weapon, range would be important. However, the size of the blade would suggest raw power being the decisive factor. It's weight would make it hard to move it quickly, thereby forcing you to take down your opponents with a low amount of blows to prevent exhausting yourself.

I won't deny the brute force factor when it comes to melee. However, that wouldn't have the effect in the analogy. In fact, losing to brute force is one of the easiest and most "accepted" ways to get your heroes to lose a battle.

That depends on a large amount of unknown factors, one among them being the budget they were working with in the first place. Design, audio, animation, editing, marketing, merchandise, post-production, there are many factors that come into play when making a media production, and budget 101 is quite simple, cut wherever you can. Of course, there are also other factors like time-constrains. Deadlines can do wonders for speeding up the 'shall I commit time to research this?' decision.

How much money does it take to hit the Internet...

[Wild Goose]

Money and time, arky-baby, money and time. That, and most of the relevant internet details are in English - and if these things are already incomprehensible to a casual English speaker, how hard do you think it'll be for a non-native speaker?

Let's not forget that the creative team makes the final call; the Metal Gear Solid series has over the last 5 installments used the services of a military advisor (Paratrooper & SWAT trainer), but Kojima has admitted that when he needs a cool & awesome boss fight, he'll go with cool & awesome, realism taking a back seat. The swordfights in MGS, plus Raiden fighting off a Harrier II Plus, are proof of that. And this is a series that hired a military advisor.

Look, give it a rest - why should you two bang your heads against the walls of each other? Just sit, and wait for the bell to ring.

(Bonus points to whoever who can figure out which poem I'm quoting.)

[MeisterBabylon]

@Keroko: I somehow mixed capitalism for democracy, and both aren't very good examples.

My main idea is to propose human stupidity for it happening as it is. On hindsight things look stupid yes, but at that point in time, either no one noticed, those who noticed didn't open their mouths, or were silenced in one way or another. Then the problem builds, then breaks. That's how crisis happens nowadays I think, and Midchilda isn't exactly immune...

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

Doesn't the fact that people are still grumbling even after the TSAB won show a dent in this theory - obviously, "acceptable" losses are not quite as clear cut as the final result only.

That is your choice. I could go on an on about how Fate 'should' have reacted in her lost fights, and how Seven Arcs 'should' have done research. I don't. The fact that you are grumbling about it is your choice, and your choice alone. There is only a handful of people complaining about it, the rest of the people go 'yeah, it wasn't really an accurate display of military. Oh well.' and move on.

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

But they DID manage to do it for the examples you showed. In fact, the first example in particular was almost written by a lawyer trying to exonerate Fate from any such accusation. We show her doing reasonably against Vita. Then we see Signum being so tough she just stands there and takes direct hits without effect and being able to blast Fate into walls. As if all this wasn't enough, 3 episodes later, Fate gets a rematch armed with cartridges and a toughened device and draws even.

Lotte was pure surprise. Surprise is good. It not only exonerates the hero for the failure, it makes the villain look more villanous. I still have worse vibes of Aria and Lotte than Regius, Graham, Scarlietti and only a bit better than Precia. And they even wrote a lawyer's statement for that one too, about Aria and Lotte hiding so well even ship's scanners can't find them - the implications are obvious.

Chrono's victory was paved carefully too. He's a skilled hero in his own right (he hadn't been sidelined yet). They show him at a higher rank.

The teacher they decided to invert the Show, not Tell rule. This is the final defence. In a situation where you can't plausibly show your characters losing, but it is vital that they do, just SAY they did and make all as murky as possible, and let your readers plot their best rationalization. It is better than drawing it out and f*cking up.

If they did half as well in handling the losses in Ep16 as they did in your examples, it might have escaped such criticisms.

And yet, the logic you used can just as easily be used in defense of the TSAB. They lost horribly against Jail's first assault, but by the time the second battle comes around the corner, very shortly afterwards I might add, their forces are holding of a massive assault of drones, find the enemy base, hold of and infiltrate the enemy flagship and claim victory in the end.

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

It was lost?

Ah, I'm sorry. Backtracking my posts I realize I'm confusing theories with facts here, I was assuming that, with Belka dominating the dimensions for milenia, their loss also meant the loss of dimensional travel. I have no canon evidence for this theory though.

Regardless, this not being the case makes Mid's progress even more admirable. Had they been the first to re-discover dimensional travel, they would be able to spread their influence much faster then any other world. However, if this is not the case, then Mid being both the most dominating magic style and the biggest fish in the pond becomes far more admirable.

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

Whatever its competences were, they definitely weren't in the military field. Competence is relative, however, and if everyone is equally incompetent, the most resourceful side (generally the TSAB) wins.

And yet again I will point out that the TSAB operates in areas filled with severe conflict, doing so while incompetent in the area of military is certainly not something that strikes me as easy.

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

I won't deny the brute force factor when it comes to melee. However, that wouldn't have the effect in the analogy. In fact, losing to brute force is one of the easiest and most "accepted" ways to get your heroes to lose a battle.

Certainly. In this scenario it also happens to be somewhat likely. Pure coincidence, I'd say.

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

How much money does it take to hit the Internet...

It takes time, and time equals money in more ways then just hourly pay.

[Wild Goose]

If it can be accepted that the writers are idiots and did not do the research, it also stands to reason that it can also be accepted the animators did not do a full on job. Hell, compare the animation quality between StrikerS and Macross Frontier. Even with a bigger budget, the animators on Frontier still screwed up a few times (like vapor trails from wingtip vortices forming in space. And no, official schematics rule out coolant being ejected from the wingtips.

[arkhangelsk]

Originally Posted by Wild Goose

Money and time, arky-baby, money and time. That, and most of the relevant internet details are in English - and if these things are already incomprehensible to a casual English speaker, how hard do you think it'll be for a non-native speaker?

Quite frankly, the average field manual or web page is hardly difficult to read. And considering Japan is home to a vibrant otaku culture, I'll be surprised if a lot of material wasn't available in Japanese. In fact, when it comes to accessing non-English material, sometimes it seems like the Japanese have a easier time of it.

Originally Posted by Wild Goose

If it can be accepted that the writers are idiots and did not do the research, it also stands to reason that it can also be accepted the animators did not do a full on job. Hell, compare the animation quality between StrikerS and Macross Frontier. Even with a bigger budget, the animators on Frontier still screwed up a few times (like vapor trails from wingtip vortices forming in space. And no, official schematics rule out coolant being ejected from the wingtips.

That'll be an interesting canonicity dispute

Originally Posted by Keroko

That is your choice. I could go on an on about how Fate 'should' have reacted in her lost fights, and how Seven Arcs 'should' have done research. I don't. The fact that you are grumbling about it is your choice, and your choice alone. There is only a handful of people complaining about it, the rest of the people go 'yeah, it wasn't really an accurate display of military. Oh well.' and move on.

Interesting. And this is the thread we grumble in.

And yet, the logic you used can just as easily be used in defense of the TSAB. They lost horribly against Jail's first assault,

Which did not exactly have overwhelming force. They did have surprise, but it doesn't buy them as many points because Jail didn't have the superiority to turn his surprise into shock - a proper defense plan and response would have at least clipped a much bigger tail off him, affecting operations henceforth. In short, it fails to meet the usual conditions for an "acceptable" defeat.

but by the time the second battle comes around the corner, very shortly afterwards I might add, their forces are holding of a massive assault of drones, find the enemy base, hold of and infiltrate the enemy flagship and claim victory in the end.

Well, they were doing somewhat better in their 2nd fight, but the 1st fight was so bad that it was out of zone, so this isn't saying much. For the 2nd fight, from a WHOLE PLANET they squeezed out a battalion or so worth of ground troops and less than that for air. Finding the enemy base would have been a nicer accomplishment if they hadn't spent 6 months on it already. If the drones were more aggressive, holding them off might have looked better. And the infiltrate the enemy flagship bit almost un-necessarily caused the lives of two extremely precious mages (extremely precious because the TSAB seems to prefer to rely on elite mages than institutionalizing capability).

To say that was some kind of redemption is like saying a good landing is one that you walk away from (even if the plane collapses on its landing gear).

Regardless, this not being the case makes Mid's progress even more admirable. Had they been the first to re-discover dimensional travel, they would be able to spread their influence much faster then any other world. However, if this is not the case, then Mid being both the most dominating magic style and the biggest fish in the pond becomes far more admirable.

What makes you think that it didn't come because of diplomatic efforts instead of military action.

And yet again I will point out that the TSAB operates in areas filled with severe conflict, doing so while incompetent in the area of military is certainly not something that strikes me as easy.

Yes, the operative word is "operate". They don't, however, control.

Besides, as I said, it is all relative competence. If the Orusians are no smarter at the game, then with an adequate commitment of numbers, the TSAB can probably maintain order.

[Jimmy C]

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

What makes you think that it didn't come because of diplomatic efforts instead of military action.

Whether it involved lots of military action or diplomatic efforts, it's still admirable progress.

[arkhangelsk]

Won't deny that. In fact, most people will grade the latter higher of the two, but Keroko seems to just want to see the former...

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

Won't deny that. In fact, most people will grade the latter higher of the two, but Keroko seems to just want to see the former...

How kind of you to draw that conclusion before giving me a say in the matter.

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

Which did not exactly have overwhelming force. They did have surprise, but it doesn't buy them as many points because Jail didn't have the superiority to turn his surprise into shock - a proper defense plan and response would have at least clipped a much bigger tail off him, affecting operations henceforth. In short, it fails to meet the usual conditions for an "acceptable" defeat.

He did have a shock ellement. As soon as his drones were within striking range, the magic of many of those mages present was rendered useless. Having an amry of drones barreling towards you and finding out that you can do nothing against them would generate quite a shock I'd say. Do remember that not all the troops stationed there were necissarily briefed on the capabilities of the drones, as Regius didn't really have a reason to suspect Jail to attack him and -though I have to double check this- RF6 itself was also not certain it would be Jail whom would attack. An unknown enemy enters through a line of defense you'd thought present and renders you and most of your comrades useless.

Suddenly the panic attacks of the mages present become a lot easier to understand.

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

Well, they were doing somewhat better in their 2nd fight, but the 1st fight was so bad that it was out of zone, so this isn't saying much. For the 2nd fight, from a WHOLE PLANET they squeezed out a battalion or so worth of ground troops and less than that for air. Finding the enemy base would have been a nicer accomplishment if they hadn't spent 6 months on it already. If the drones were more aggressive, holding them off might have looked better. And the infiltrate the enemy flagship bit almost un-necessarily caused the lives of two extremely precious mages (extremely precious because the TSAB seems to prefer to rely on elite mages than institutionalizing capability).

To say that was some kind of redemption is like saying a good landing is one that you walk away from (even if the plane collapses on its landing gear).

And yet most movies featuring airplane troubles will have some form of crash to make the landing more spectacular, and the pilot more heroic.

Remember what I said about nitpicking? You're doing it again. I could sit here and nitpick any of the melee casts victories and throw in the same analogy, but the end result is simple:

They won.

They held of and defeated an enemy that had trampled them before. Sure, if you nitpick you can say 'but it wasn't perfect!' but they won nonetheles.

Why is it that everything else is reasonable, and excusable, but military tactics must be ground into the dust?

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

What makes you think that it didn't come because of diplomatic efforts instead of military action.

All the more credit to them, then. I never said the TSAB gained all those worlds by conquering them with an iron boot. However, there are hundreds of worlds out there. Do you really think all of them would just role over and accept TSAB rule? Some won't.

The simple fact is that the TSAB still has conflicts to deal with. That's why the Navy draws in all the elites. Not to have them roam around on a ship with nothing to do, but because they're needed.

If the TSAB fails to be a competent military organization, how do you explain its existence for 150 years?

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

Yes, the operative word is "operate". They don't, however, control.

I was unaware that operating in hostile teritory required less military competence then operating on home ground.

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

Besides, as I said, it is all relative competence. If the Orusians are no smarter at the game, then with an adequate commitment of numbers, the TSAB can probably maintain order.

Or they could simply not control it out of diplomatic reasons. The country is embroiled in a civil war after all. The TSAB as it stands needs not necisarily be a dictatorship that conquers all who opose.

[arkhangelsk]

Originally Posted by Keroko

How kind of you to draw that conclusion before giving me a say in the matter.

In the absence of the ability to read your mind, all I can do is go based on your known past history in making this estimate (note the "seems").

He did have a shock ellement. As soon as his drones were within striking range, the magic of many of those mages present was rendered useless. Having an amry of drones barreling towards you and finding out that you can do nothing against them would generate quite a shock I'd say. Do remember that not all the troops stationed there were necissarily briefed on the capabilities of the drones, as Regius didn't really have a reason to suspect Jail to attack him and -though I have to double check this- RF6 itself was also not certain it would be Jail whom would attack. An unknown enemy enters through a line of defense you'd thought present and renders you and most of your comrades useless.

Suddenly the panic attacks of the mages present become a lot easier to understand.

While it is true that having your shots bounce harmlessly or even refuse to fire can be quite the morale-depresser, as far as we can see, it never even got to that stage. Here's what we saw: See drone -> rout.

Anything else is fanciful wishing. Double the points taken off for this being the battalion assigned to guard HQ, thus presumably an elite battalion (at least among GF), which means most of the GF units are below on the scale.

As an elite battalion, what we SHOULD have been seeing is some moral fibre even AFTER the (nonexistent) first attacks don't work. What we should have been seeing, at the very least, are them trying stuff similar to what the Forwards did when they did. Commanders should be taking charge, and if they can't think of something imaginative they can at least try concentrating a squad's fire onto one. What we certainly shouldn't be seeing, even from a bunch of complete military ignoramuses, is them running without a fight, unless the intent is indeed to make them look like d*umb*sses.

At least the air mages actively closed, but there is a point in "rapid defeat by the enemy" where what people think is no longer "Man, the enemies are strong", but "Man, the good guys are weak."

And before you blame the budget or the timeframes (as you tend to do when what is seen start going against you), do note that things do change when you add the military - you have to show them trying, or at least NOT show them wimping out so blatantly. And don't say 7Arcs is too dumb for this. While the attempt was crude, they were smart enough to do something like that for Ep23.

And while you are right that RF6 isn't sure whether it'll be Jail, but if anything, Jail's guys coming would be something of a morale booster to them because they'll be fighting what they've fought and practiced against for months.

And yet most movies featuring airplane troubles will have some form of crash to make the landing more spectacular, and the pilot more heroic.

Such movies will probably involve the plane being badly damaged or it being driven by an unqualified person.

Remember what I said about nitpicking? You're doing it again. I could sit here and nitpick any of the melee casts victories and throw in the same analogy, but the end result is simple:

They won.

They held of and defeated an enemy that had trampled them before. Sure, if you nitpick you can say 'but it wasn't perfect!' but they won nonetheles.

Why is it that everything else is reasonable, and excusable, but military tactics must be ground into the dust?

How does "they won" mean that they are competent?

All the more credit to them, then. I never said the TSAB gained all those worlds by conquering them with an iron boot. However, there are hundreds of worlds out there. Do you really think all of them would just role over and accept TSAB rule? Some won't.

Idea 1: The trade sanctions idea.
Idea 2: The Arcenciel idea.
Idea 3: Leave such worlds as non-management.

The simple fact is that the TSAB still has conflicts to deal with. That's why the Navy draws in all the elites. Not to have them roam around on a ship with nothing to do, but because they're needed.

What kind of conflicts? Can't be very big ones. Seeing that they get only about a company's worth of troops and one ship even for a high-ranked LL. It seems more like they occasionally have big Lost Logia to investigate, rather than them having real actions to fight.

If the TSAB fails to be a competent military organization, how do you explain its existence for 150 years?

Whatever theory you use to explain this one, it will HAVE to take into account of its present incompetence, rather than pretending it doesn't exist.

Most likely, after so many years of war, they got so sick of it that they were willing to have peace, and eventually, an intricate web of economic and other mutual interests makes war an unsavory prospect.

I was unaware that operating in hostile teritory required less military competence then operating on home ground.

There are many kinds of presence in hostile territory. You can be absolutely dominating, one step below control, patrolling the streets almost like you own it - any enemies don't really fight you head on, but just at most risk a snipeshot here. You can have a power. Maybe you can temporarily dominate an area with a concentrated effort but when you are few in number your enemies will hit you and win. Or maybe you just are hiding out in bunkers and defending a few key points because you are too weak to do anything else. Or maybe you operate covertly. All of these levels can be said to be "operating", but the level of relative competence is clearly different.

Or they could simply not control it out of diplomatic reasons. The country is embroiled in a civil war after all. The TSAB as it stands needs not necisarily be a dictatorship that conquers all who opose.

It is amazing you don't think of that when trying to say that the fact the TSAB hadn't collapsed for 150 years = competence.

[al103]

Ehm... TSAB is 75 years old in Strikers. And have usual "3rd generation" problems. Revolutioners of 1st and builders of 2nd generation are out of play mostly and it's 3rd generation who are bureaucrats and/or careerist are in play which is highly visible... It's actually entirely possible that TSAB would selfdestruct as many other countries/cultures/organizations which didn't overcame 70years barrier - most visible example in modern times was USSR...

[Avatar_notADV]

Well, the TSAB has the advantage of having at least some of the founding members still around, even if they're not on active duty anymore. More parallels to Meiji Japan?

It's obvious that the show is grooming Nanoha/Fate/Hayate to eventually step into that role - not so much governance as providing moral direction, military inspiration, and a panic button. (Okay, they're already the panic button.) So reasonably speaking, no, they'll do all right, because they got really lucky and recruited the right people.

But you're correct, it's obvious that the "modern" TSAB has not been in a prolonged combat situation. I still like the British Imperial model - strong navy, which draws a high proportion of the elites, leaving an army that's not particularly effective, and which gets neglected because it just doesn't have much to do and when it is in action, it's often against under-armed natives from "overseas"...

Let's give them this much credit - the cartridge system went from "rare historical oddity" to "in general, if not universal, use" between A's and Strikers. Without the spur of a war, a lot of militaries wouldn't have made that jump.

[Saint X]

Originally Posted by Avatar_notADV

Without the spur of a war, a lot of militaries wouldn't have made that jump.

This I agree in many aspects.

Almost every major paradigm shift in the history of warfare came in during times of conflict.

[Keroko]

New information from SSX throws yet another light on past observations. In track 16 of disc 2, Subaru is hit by what is blatantly labeled an 'artillery' style cannon with 'live ammunition' that could 'destroy a tank in one shot'

And Subaru?

Without any active defense being thrown up, she comes out with even less damage then after her fight with Nove and Cinque.

This means that the blows being exchanged during the fight between Nove, Cinque and Subaru exceeded the power of an artillery cannon during their fight in episode 17. With no active defenses being thrown up, that means her only defense was her Barrier Jacket and her Cyborg body. Cinque's and Subaru's blows had to go through an active Barrier as well, further increasing their power.

It also deals another blow to the 'measured speed is always an accurate display of power' and 'Mid buildings are made of foam' theories.

[AdmiralTigerclaw]

Originally Posted by Keroko

New information from SSX throws yet another light on past observations. In track 16 of disc 2, Subaru is hit by what is blatantly labeled an 'artillery' style cannon with 'live ammunition' that could 'destroy a tank in one shot'

And Subaru?

Without any active defense being thrown up, she comes out with even less damage then after her fight with Nove and Cinque.

This means that the blows being exchanged during the fight between Nove, Cinque and Subaru exceeded the power of an artillery cannon during their fight in episode 17. With no active defenses being thrown up, that means her only defense was her Barrier Jacket and her Cyborg body. Cinque's and Subaru's blows had to go through an active Barrier as well, further increasing their power.

It also deals another blow to the 'measured speed is always an accurate display of power' and 'Mid buildings are made of foam' theories.

Generally, that's how most modern firepower against tanks works.

Either you blow the tank up in one shot, or you're toast. It's just the way the armor works. Either you reach the fail point, or you don't.

Now the question is. What kind of tank? If they had a japanese tank in mind, the artillery round might be smaller. Seriously. Not all tanks are created equal. We're talking 'What is the difference between a T-72, an Abrams, a Challenger II, and a Greopard.' (And if Mid-Childa tanks are being thought of in the comparison, then it must be a lousy artillery shell. Remember how horribly poor those tank designs are. ^_^; You can probably take those things out with confetti popers.)

[Keroko]

Mariages were created during a time when mass-weaponry was common usage, so the Mid-type (which we haven't even seen in action once, so we can't exactly call them 'poor' especially in light of this new knowledge) is probably not a correct standard.

Considering no tank type is mentioned (just 'a tank') we can't say it was a heavy tank. Though by the same logic we can't say it was a light tank either. Why don't we take the middle ground in this? A medium tank (if that's the correct term <_<) so to say.

[AdmiralTigerclaw]

Originally Posted by Keroko

Mariages were created during a time when mass-weaponry was common usage, so the Mid-type (which we haven't even seen in action once, so we can't exactly call them 'poor' especially in light of this new knowledge) is probably not a correct standard.

Considering no tank type is mentioned (just 'a tank') we can't say it was a heavy tank. Though by the same logic we can't say it was a light tank either. Why don't we take the middle ground in this? A medium tank (if that's the correct term <_<) so to say.

My father has a saying. "There are two types of ship in the ocean. Submarines, and targets."

I think one could adapt that to tanks.

There are two types of tanks on the battlefield.

Tanks, and scrap metal.

Guess where mid-childan 'tanks' go...

[MeisterBabylon]

Old Belka Guard commander: You call that armor?! Them Middies just don't know what Lemans and Russies are made of.