[Manga] Chapter 451 Discussion

[Sazelyt]

Originally Posted by james0246

Naruto knows the man with the swirl-design mask attacked Konoha, was equal or greater in strength to Minato, and released the Kyuubi;

How does Naruto know that he is at least as strong as his father? Did I miss a mention of that in chapter ...?

and finally Danzou or one of the elders (potentially even Shikaku) know that Madara/an Uchiha can control the Kyuubi.

Jiraiya was the one that mentioned this. And he shared this opinion with the sealing toad. So, there is someone directly connected with Naruto knows that. And coincidentally, that someone should also know Yondaime well enough to respect his opinion, if Naruto decides to share that with it.

And, aren't you forgetting someone named Konan, who seemed to consider herself as an ally of Naruto? Enough to share this little information with him...

And finally, aren't we forgetting Kyuubi, the one in the center of all this, the one who first mentioned the name Madara?

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Fipskuul

How does Naruto know that he is at least as strong as his father? Did I miss a mention of that in chapter ...?

Um...Minato specifically said that the masked nin "saw through everything that (I) did." This strongly implies that nothing that Minato could do, could stop the masked nin from releasing and controling the Kyuubi. Unless Minato just shouted at the masked nin, that means none of Minato's attacks could stop the masked nin, and nothing Minato ccould do stop the masked nin from using the Kyuubi. Minato being able to do nothing against the masked nin seems like fairly strong evidence for the masked nin being equal or greater than Minato...

Originally Posted by Fipskuul

Jiraiya was the one that mentioned this. And he shared this opinion with the sealing toad. So, there is someone directly connected with Naruto knows that. And coincidentally, that someone should also know Yondaime well enough to respect his opinion, if Naruto decides to share that with it.

Actually, no, Jiraiya did not say that Madara could control the Kyuubi. Gerotora even specifically said that the Kyuubi was a force of nature and could not be controlled (Jiraiya only said that he still thought Madara had something to do with the incident, but he had no proof).

Seemingly only the elders know that the secret of the Sharingan is that the eyes can control the Kyuubi. Jiraiya hinted at it, but he gave no real info.

Originally Posted by Fipskuul

And, aren't you forgetting someone named Konan, who seemed to consider herself as an ally of Naruto? Enough to share this little information with him...

Um, maybe you missed Konan leaving Konoha without revealing any info on Akatsuki...it was a pretty important scene, you might want to go back and read the last few chapters...

Plus, what part of "Konoha has enough info to know who the Big Bad is", do you not understand?

Originally Posted by Fipskuul

And finally, aren't we forgetting Kyuubi, the one in the center of all this, the one who first mentioned the name Madara?

LOL, you are trying to lecture me on the Kyuubi knowing about Madara when I was the one who made the biggest fuss over the fact that the Kyuubi didn't tell Naruto about Madara during the Minato appearance? Kishimoto had a chance to use the Kyuubi, he choice not to, so I seriously doubt that Kishimoto will ever use the Kyuubi as a source of info.

[Phenomenal]

Originally Posted by james0246

Fair enough. This is the story that Kishimoto was trying to write, and it is definetly the story that Kishimoto is using now as the basis for everything post-Nagato (i.e. we are simply supposed to accept that Nagato "believed" in Naruto), but, sadly enough, this was not the story actually presented during the Nagato chapters..

Thats' the whole purpose of Nagato going back to his old choices, he believed. Nagato picking his faith back up again automatically makes him BELIEVE in Naruto. That is very believable to fans who understand the concept of faith. Kishimoto did a great job writing that piece and now it carries even further in Naruto's development.

[irrational]

Originally Posted by AuroraFlash

Neji has made less progress than expected. He's just an ordinary prodigy. He's not at the level of fighting Akatsuki one on one and I bet that's because he relies on his Hyuuga legacy. He'll always depend on taijutsu to hit the tenketsu and he'll definitely lose to Sharingan because Sharingan has evolved from Byakugan. The next level of Byakugan is Sharingan. Yes, that's the way it is.

I also like Neji, but I think he is what he is - a Jounin. Not less and not more. He just had to pass the exams to become a Jounin. Temari and Kakurou are Jounin aswell. You should already know that it doesn't mean anything to be a Jounin. Naruto's already far beyond the level of an ordinary Jounin. If he would fight Neji again, Neji wouldn't be a match to him anymore (if Naruto would use everything he has of course).

Yet, Neji showed some interesting mid-range moves when he fought Kisame (Hakke Kūshō) or the Akatsuki clone (Hakke Hasangeki).

First of all, Neji isn't just a ordinary prodigy because like sasuke he was the number one rookie of his generation.

Secondly, i doubt that The Sharingan evolved from the byakugan because there completely different. For instance the only similarity is that they can both see chakra but then again the rinnegan can do this too.

Thirdly, a Jounin is the highest a ninja can get to apart from being a kage. Therefore considering that he is still under 20 that is a good achievment. Also, comparing jounin level of konoha to the sand is inexcusable: because the sand's kage (Gaara) isn't really strong and would most likely be killed by tsunade, jiraiya or even Kakashi( who is also jounin level).

Your point about Naruto being above Neji is most likely true however thats because he is the main character and he OBVIOUSLY has to be one of the strongest. This basically means that Neji's potential was watered down by default because Kishi probably couldn't be bothered to give him a main role.

[AuroraFlash]

Originally Posted by Mr. Johnny 5

Could you explain what you ment with that? Because it was Danzou and the advisors who ordered the total annihilation of the Uchiha Clan. If you ask me then would Kakashi grow to be the exact same as Danzou if it weren't for the unfortunate accident of Uchiha Obito. A person who was strictly following the rules.

Well, maybe Uchiha knew too much about Danzou. So far, it's just a theory, but an ANBU was ordered to kill the Uchiha and I think it was Danzou's strong influence and his pressure that lasted on Itachi's shoulders. Maybe Danzou faked information about Uchiha planning a coup d'etat or the origin of that idea was Madara who joined Itachi to slaughter the clan afterwards. There's a lot of space for thoughts and I have different theorys. I don't stick to any of them, but I like to discuss them. I just know that Danzou seems to be more strict than the 3rd and if the 1st and 2nd preferred the 3rd to Danzou, I think they had a different opinion aswell. Danzou must have been trained by someone with more radical thoughts, that's all.

Originally Posted by Mr. Johnny 5

True, Maito Gai and Asuma were both strong and based on the databook i think both were superior to Kakashi. Gai is stronger then Kakashi was mentioned before. Kakashi seemed to me a person who is also nearing his max potential.
I doubt he'll grow much more. Or it's just that he rarely trains.

On the one hand, I totally agree concerning Kakashi has reached his limit, on the other hand, I hope that he can reach new heights now that he has finally talked with his father. This was important and his feelings of guilt as he judged his father have driven him mad, I think. Maybe Kakashi's father committed suicide because Kakashi was his son and prodigy and as he failed his mission, Kakashi stopped looking up to his father. Maybe this was why the dialogue we witnessed was so important and the reason why the White Fang could leave this dark place now. I think Kakashi dishonoured his father. He was always ashamed of him until Obito taught him another taste. Yet, having driven his father into suicide might always have been on Kakashi's mind and thus a feint will to die.

Originally Posted by Mr. Johnny 5

I think it's currently unfair to talk about Neji. Not only because we've seen little to nothing of him. We've seen him during the Chuunin Exam...during the chase of Sasuke and when Kisame attacked. He got captured and got out. Something Kakashi when he face Zabuza was unable to do. Meanwhile it was Gai who did all the fighting. Lee did pretty much nothing just like Tenten... are they weak? You can't judge it from that.

In my humble opinion, it's never unfair to talk about characters. I know that he didn't have any screentime but that's just a fact and I didn't deny that. Yet, I can discuss his current state, even if it hasn't changed for a whole year.
He escaped the water prison because of his Byakugan. He could see the weakspot of the technique and on top he's able to release chakra from any part of his body. He could even use his chakra cock if he wanted to...
At the moment, Neji is no match for the powerful Akatsuki who're left. Well, maybe he's a match for Zetsu, but Kisame can cut down his so-called ultimate defense with his sword and has the upper hand concerning chakra. Madara on the other hand is protected by an allmighty plot shield. It's clear that only the protagonist and maybe together with Sasuke will encounter him. I can't remember any more Akatsuki at the moment. They've crumbled, haven't they?

Originally Posted by ultra_dragon

a few things, one who do you thing would have trained danzuo when he was a kid? they were in time of wars, i dont think he could have learned from other villages, and he wasn't on the team with the thirs(who was trained by the most powerful people in the village) and this is the reason he isn't as strong as the third. and when was it mentioned that the fight fang was in the level of the sannin?
btw the third was stronger than his students.
maito guy is strong but nothing kag level strong, opening the gates is a big risk, the more you open the more damage you do on yourself.

First of all, I think the fake Madara might have trained Danzou and he might aswell have supported his powerful position. Madara's plans reach back to the founding of Konoha, so Danzou might aswell be part of it, a puppet like Itachi, playing by Madara's rules.
Why do you stick to this as a reason? It's not reason at all that people are trained by the strongest. It's what you make of it and your own potential that makes you strong. Strength isn't passed down like a wristwatch or a golden ring...
It doesn't matter how strong the 3rd was and I don't know if he was really stronger than his students. In the end, Orochimaru managed to kill him with his own sword. Maybe the 3rd was stronger when he was younger, that's actually for sure, but a comparison between the unseen young him and the also old Sannin is pretty farfetched.
Opening the gates is an ability just as any other. The old FRS was even worse and MS is nothing Kakashi can use at ease. Most of the techniques are dangerous and I think it's pretty nice Maito Gai can use six gates so easily. Two steps away from dying, but he recovers fast.

Originally Posted by irrational

First of all, Neji isn't just a ordinary prodigy because like sasuke he was the number one rookie of his generation.

Only one can be the number one rookie and that was Sasuke's title after all.

Originally Posted by irrational

Secondly, i doubt that The Sharingan evolved from the byakugan because there completely different. For instance the only similarity is that they can both see chakra but then again the rinnegan can do this too.

You can doubt that as long as you wish, but it's a written cannon fact. I won't tell you where to read it, so if you want to know it for sure, I guess you just look it up yourself then. This is basic knowledge for me and I'm afraid I won't look it up for several hours now just to prove it to you.

Originally Posted by irrational

Thirdly, a Jounin is the highest a ninja can get to apart from being a kage. Therefore considering that he is still under 20 that is a good achievment. Also, comparing jounin level of konoha to the sand is inexcusable: because the sand's kage (Gaara) isn't really strong and would most likely be killed by tsunade, jiraiya or even Kakashi( who is also jounin level).

I'm afraid you pull that out of your nose.
Seriously, are you trying to waste my time by laughing about me desparately trying to take you serious? It's nice that he became a Jounin, but it's just the title capable ninjas should get. It's okay that he became a Jounin at young age, but he is definitely not the first and not the only one. Furthermore I remember a title called Special Jounin and I remember a Genin who's at Kage level already, no I remember two, because in fact, Sasuke's never been promoted Chuunin. He might be a missing-nin, yet he's a good example how senseless it is to use these titles as a measuring stick. Another good example would be Akatsuki. Jounin actually means nothing. Say goodbye to the old-fashioned system of titles.

Are you serious about Gaara not being strong? You must be joking. No, I won't comment this.

Originally Posted by irrational

Your point about Naruto being above Neji is most likely true however thats because he is the main character and he OBVIOUSLY has to be one of the strongest. This basically means that Neji's potential was watered down by default because Kishi probably couldn't be bothered to give him a main role.

I think Neji will get his screentime, so please calm down. Maybe he has already reached his limits. It seems that most of the so-called kekkei genkai are really "bloodline limits" ... not only techniques that are limited to be used only by those who possess the bloodline but also limits that limit those who possess the bloodline and restrict them to be pretty single-sided nins. It's a double edged sword. Maybe Sharingan and Rin'negan are exceptions.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Phenomenal

Thats' the whole purpose of Nagato going back to his old choices, he believed. Nagato picking his faith back up again automatically makes him BELIEVE in Naruto. That is very believable to fans who understand the concept of faith. Kishimoto did a great job writing that piece and now it carries even further in Naruto's development.

Since when did Kishimto give up on writing for a general audience, and just start writing to a select group of people that "understand [his] concept of faith." The very fact that you had to use your own conception of "faith" means that Kishimoto failed at telling his story anyone can understand.

[Phenomenal]

Originally Posted by james0246

Since when did Kishimto give up on writing for a general audience, and just start writing to a select group of people that "understand [his] concept of faith." The very fact that you had to use your own conception of "faith" means that Kishimoto failed at telling his story anyone can understand.

Uh...I didn't use my own concept, I USED Nagato's...Kishimoto's story...And the general audience knows about faith it's the samething as optimisim and positive thinking or whatever other type of crap the world likes to twist it as but it is all faith.

Wooh!!

[Sazelyt]

Originally Posted by james0246

Um...Minato specifically said that the masked nin "saw through everything that (I) did." This strongly implies that nothing that Minato could do, could stop the masked nin from releasing and controling the Kyuubi. Unless Minato just shouted at the masked nin, that means none of Minato's attacks could stop the masked nin, and nothing Minato ccould do stop the masked nin from using the Kyuubi. Minato being able to do nothing against the masked nin seems like fairly strong evidence for the masked nin being equal or greater than Minato...

This is like saying, nothing Pain would do would stop Jiraiya releasing his Sannin mode, that means he should be stronger. Sorry, don't buy it. I don't know why you selected that part to defend your argument. The only expression (from Yondaime) you can use is not what you gave, instead what Yondaime said earlier. About, without special power you cannot stop him (and I believe techniques like Death God, which you can modify at will, can be considered as such). That is at least his impression on him, nothing more nothing less.

Actually, no, Jiraiya did not say that Madara could control the Kyuubi. Gerotora even specifically said that the Kyuubi was a force of nature and could not be controlled (Jiraiya only said that he still thought Madara had something to do with the incident, but he had no proof).

Jiraiya had the knowledge that Madara was capable of summoning Kyuubi. The only connection he made was Madara repeating the same again. I think for someone having the knowledge of Madara summoning the Kyuubi, even though that seems to be a hidden information, the rest like controlling the Kyuubi, should also be there. Also, Jiraiya corrected the toad, saying, there was one....

Um, maybe you missed Konan leaving Konoha without revealing any info on Akatsuki...it was a pretty important scene, you might want to go back and read the last few chapters...

Yeah, I am sure that was pretty important. Considering that she had to put his two friends, the only people she might have considered as family all her life, people that are more important than anything, into their grave. So, you are telling me, she had to sort out her priorities incorrectly, and spent her hours in such a situation on Akatsuki, when the significance of Akatsuki was not as important for her anymore. Of course I don't know what you think, maybe you would have done the exact opposite of what she had done.

Plus, what part of "Konoha has enough info to know who the Big Bad is", do you not understand?

Since when did you start considering Konan as Konoha? Even the letters do not match!

LOL, you are trying to lecture me on the Kyuubi knowing about Madara when I was the one who made the biggest fuss over the fact that the Kyuubi didn't tell Naruto about Madara during the Minato appearance? Kishimoto had a chance to use the Kyuubi, he choice not to, so I seriously doubt that Kishimoto will ever use the Kyuubi as a source of info.

Sorry, I don't track "the one"s or "the chosen one"s here. Kishimoto chooses times to tell things of importance. Can be good timing, or absurd timing. Doesn't matter. Just like Yondaime's appearance. Even though Kishi would have used Jiraiya, Tsunade, Sandaime, or another to tell about his roots, the opportunity came through the person himself. So, Kyuubi is also someone who had a similar kind of connection. And with Naruto, possibly, going into another set of training using his father's will, there will come a time where Kyuubi will have to open his mouth to mutter something. Just like the time when he opened his mouth wide enough when he encountered Sasuke.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Phenomenal

Uh...I didn't use my own concept, I USED Nagato's...Kishimoto's story...And the general audience knows about faith it's the samething as optimisim and positive thinking or whatever other type of crap the world likes to twist it as but it is all faith.

You might want to revise your statement, then, because you specifically said that "fans who understand the concept of faith" understand what happened. This statement means that only those who have a specific understanding of faith (something that has many different definitions), can understand what Kishimoto was writing.

That being said, I have already gone pseudo-in-depth explaining the failing of Kishimoto's actual storytelling in previous chapters, I was only using your words against you here. If you want to hold a more in-depth discussion of Kishimoto's failings, please go start a thread whose sole intention is to explain to everyone why Kishimoto did not fail at writing his story. Otherwise, I got over the bad writing 2 weeks ago.

Originally Posted by Phenomenal

Wooh!!

First Chuck Norris, now Fonzie ? You really need to pick better role models .

[Phenomenal]

Originally Posted by james0246

You might want to revise your statement, then, because you specifically said that "fans who understand the concept of faith" understand what happened. This statement means that only those who have a specific understanding of faith (something that has many different definitions), can understand what Kishimoto was writing.

That being said, I have already gone pseudo-in-depth explaining the failing of Kishimoto's actual storytelling in previous chapters, I was only using your words against you here. If you want to hold a more in-depth discussion of Kishimoto's failings, please go start a thread whose sole intention is to explain to everyone why Kishimoto did not fail at writing his story. Otherwise, I got over the bad writing 2 weeks ago.

It's not bad writing it's bad reading....

First Chuck Norris, now Fonzie ? You really need to pick better role models .

Nah they aren't role models not even close.

With that said We will see Madara as the Mizukage at the Kage meeting!!

[AuroraFlash]

Originally Posted by james0246

Hm...I do not think there is anyway to say that Minato knew that Madara was in control of the Kyuubi during the attack 15-16 years ago.

As for Naruto, he definetly does not know. But, Kishimoto has created a situation where Konoha has all of the pieces, the various nin simply have to bring them together: Naruto knows the man with the swirl-design mask attacked Konoha, was equal or greater in strength to Minato, and released the Kyuubi; Kakashi knows that the man with the swirl-design mask has a Sharingan; and finally Danzou or one of the elders (potentially even Shikaku) know that Madara/an Uchiha can control the Kyuubi. So, if the characters can just add these basic facts together ('An Uchiha more powerful than the Fourth released the Kyuubi, and they are presently the Shadow Leader of Akatsuki'), then they will unodubtedly know who the final boss is, especially if Gerotora explains his final conversation with Jiraiya (in which Jiraiya wonders if Madara is still alive).

Yes, exactly, but I'm afraid you forgot about Sasuke who knows the man with the mask is Uchiha Madara, but says the Kyuubi was a natural occurance and that none of the Uchiha summoned the beast. The rest of the story is a chewed gum.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Fipskuul

This is like saying, nothing Pain would do would stop Jiraiya releasing his Sannin mode, that means he should be stronger.

Um, this makes no sense...Madara releasing and then commanding a gigantic 9-tailed beast to attack a city is a bit different from Pain doing nothing to stop Jiraiya from using Senjutsu.

In the end, Minato specifically said that nothing he could do could stop the masked Nin from releasing and then controlling the Kyuubi. That means that Minato found the masked nin, before the Kyuubi was released, attempted to stop the process, failed at preventing the masked nin from summoning the creature, and then failed at stopping the masked nin from controlling the creature and ordering it to destroy Konoha. This is more than sufficient evidence that the masked Nin was at least equal to Minato (considering that if the person was below him, he could have stopped the summoning and controlling).

Added to that, though, as you mentioned, Minato also thought that only someone with the power of the Kyuubi could fight the individual. And, that the Masked Nin also controlled Pain, which means the person controlled 2 beings of mass destruction, and has tried to destroy Konoha at least twice now.

Honestly, nothing you have said actually disputes my claim that Madara was at least equal to Minato...

Originally Posted by Fipskuul

Jiraiya had the knowledge that Madara was capable of summoning Kyuubi. The only connection he made was Madara repeating the same again. I think for someone having the knowledge of Madara summoning the Kyuubi, even though that seems to be a hidden information, the rest like controlling the Kyuubi, should also be there. Also, Jiraiya corrected the toad, saying, there was one....

And the Toad corrected him saying that Madara was defeated back at the time of the 1st...

That being said, I am not even sure why you are bringing this up, considering I, before you even responded to me, said that Gerotora could be another piece of evidence needed to confirm who the "big bad" is.

Originally Posted by Fipskuul

So, you are telling me, she had to sort out her priorities incorrectly, and spent her hours in such a situation on Akatsuki, when the significance of Akatsuki was not as important for her anymore.

LOL, are you serious? If she had info, but didn't give it to Naruto at the time due to "emotional reasons", then she will be even more pathetic of a character than I had originally thought her to be. It makes no sense, from a story perspective, for her to not have told any info she knew of the leader at that point and time. Her going back to Ame, and then Kishimoto forcing someone to go question her about Akatsuki, is not only stupid, it is bad storytelling. She might play an important role in the future, but if it is for giving info on Madara, which she could have easily done when talking to Naruto, then it will be bad writing.

That being said, if Sasori can give info on Orochimaru, even when dying, why would Konan not be able to give info on Madara, even if she is emotionally distraught?

Originally Posted by Fipskuul

Since when did you start considering Konan as Konoha? Even the letters do not match!

I am unsure what you are trying to say here. I started my initial post claiming that Konoha, with the info provided by Minato (via Naruto), Kakashi, and one of the elders or Gerotora, could determine that Madara was still active. You, though, decided to argue about Gerotora (for no reason) and decided to include Konan and Kyuubi, even though they had nothing to do with Konoha at all (and consequently had nothing to do with my post concerning Konoha).

Honestly, I am still waiting for you to actually address my post, and not just come up with additional info, that may or may not be relevant, but ultimately has nothing to do with my original post.

[TooPurePureBoy]

You might want to revise your statement, then, because you specifically said that "fans who understand the concept of faith" understand what happened. This statement means that only those who have a specific understanding of faith (something that has many different definitions), can understand what Kishimoto was writing.

He didn't say anything about different kinds of faith. I don't even know what that means. There are many different religions, yes, and they all differ in many ways, but they all come down to the same thing in the believing in a higher power, faith. It's the same all around. Faith is a belief in something higher than yourself with no facts behind it. I'm not a religious person but I still understand the "concept of faith" and it's by no means an esoteric thing. Just because a writer introduces "faith" into his story doesn't mean he is alienating a certain segment of the reader base, it's just the opposite. The reader would have to be the one doing the alienating.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by TooPurePureBoy

He didn't say anything about different kinds of faith. I don't even know what that means. There are many different religions, yes, and they all differ in many ways, but they all come down to the same thing in the believing in a higher power, faith. It's the same all around. Faith is a belief in something higher than yourself with no facts behind it. I'm not a religious person but I still understand the "concept of faith" and it's by no means an esoteric thing. Just because a writer introduces "faith" into his story doesn't mean he is alienating a certain segment of the reader base, it's just the opposite. The reader would have to be the one doing the alienating.

Actually, my understanding of faith is that it is a "belief or trust in the truth of or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing." Religion need have nothing to do with it, nor does the idea of a "higher power." I can just as easily have faith in god, or faith that my next door neighbor won't burn down my house in the middle of night - they are both different types of faith.

If you wish to argue faith in regards to the story, very well. Phenomenal is positing that Nagato had "faith" in Naruto because Naruto reflected Nagato's past but he didn't kill Nagato when he had a chance, so Nagato could believe that Naruto will accomplish what Nagato did not (amongst other things). I disagree with this idea. Faith can only be believed if it has a "solid and logical inferences for [its] foundation." Consequently, the debate then becomes whether or not Nagato has the solid and logical inference for a foundation of faith in Naruto. I do not think that Kishimoto presented a logical case for such faith, specifically Naruto did not truly defeat Nagato, and Naruto is still left untested as to whether he can live only for his ideology, and not succumb as Nagato did (i.e. not killing Nagato is only the same as Nagato not trying to kill Jiraiya back when he was 12, not the same as Nagato trying to kill Hanzou when he was 20 or so). Specifically, Naruto has only, realistically, lived up to the idealogy of Nagato at the age of 12 (or so), when, after experiencing his first great pain, he was able to get over his pain and attempt to understand the people that destroyed his village and his family (i.e. understand Konoha via the interactions with Jiraiya). If this was all we had to deal with, then Nagato and Naruto's experiences would be entirely comparable, and Nagato's faith would ahve been well placed. But, sadly enough, Nagato had a 2nd great pain, that shaped his current ideology, and this 2nd pain has not beendefeated by Naruto, let alone felt by Naruto, and subsequently Naruto has not had to find an answer for this type of pain. Conesquently, Nagato's faith in Naruto is unfounded.

To put it another way, faith is the ability to commit "oneself to act based on sufficient experience to warrant belief, but without absolute proof," and I do not believe that Kishimoto adequately expressed the "sufficient experience" to "warrant belief" in Naruto. So, Nagato's faith in Naruto is misplaced, and illogical. Which, consequently, means that Kishimoto failed at providing the much needed evidence to support Nagato's faith in Naruto.

[AuroraFlash]

So Uchiha Obito would have been too young to be the one summoning the Kyuubi? Or do you think he could have been old enough? How old was Minato when Naruto was born? Kakashi and probably Obito must have been 15-16 years old when Naruto was born.
Sasuke is now just as old as Kakashi was back then. If Obito had survived, he would've been 15 to 16 years old. With Madara taking the young one-eyed and also damaged body (probably his own body was even worse damaged), could that combination have been strong enough to encounter Minato, the 4th Hokage? I'd say yes... ("There are people younger than you (Naruto), yet stronger than me (Kakashi).).

[iBeast]

Does Kishi write and draw up a new chapter every weeek? Or does he already have them just waiting for it to be released...cuz I think it's pretty funny if this guy actually wrote a new one every week...

[AuroraFlash]

Originally Posted by iBeast

Does Kishi write and draw up a new chapter every weeek? Or does he already have them just waiting for it to be released...cuz I think it's pretty funny if this guy actually wrote a new one every week...

I don't know, but I think he actually does. Maybe he has the story and maybe he does two to three in a row if he wants to have some free time, but all in all, it takes quite some time to draw a manga, doesn't it? Maybe he's not content with the first draws and has to draw some pages again. I guess that takes time and yes, you need to be pretty successful to earn some money.

[ultra_dragon]

Originally Posted by AuroraFlash

First of all, I think the fake Madara might have trained Danzou and he might aswell have supported his powerful position. Madara's plans reach back to the founding of Konoha, so Danzou might aswell be part of it, a puppet like Itachi, playing by Madara's rules.

itachi a puppet? how? he never trusted madara he didn't follow madara, he done what madara said becuase it sutied him, for his needes, he did tried to kill him with the amestrue he planted in Sauke's eyes. do rememeber that he was very weak after the fight with the first, which is the time that danzuo was already a kid it probabely took awhile before he regained his power, so training danzuo wasnt high in his list...

Originally Posted by AuroraFlash

Why do you stick to this as a reason? It's not reason at all that people are trained by the strongest. It's what you make of it and your own potential that makes you strong. Strength isn't passed down like a wristwatch or a golden ring...
It doesn't matter how strong the 3rd was and I don't know if he was really stronger than his students. In the end, Orochimaru managed to kill him with his own sword. Maybe the 3rd was stronger when he was younger, that's actually for sure, but a comparison between the unseen young him and the also old Sannin is pretty farfetched.

not exatly true..people who trained by someone strong can learn from their exprince which means there prgrees should be faster becuase they can avoid doing the same mistakes. people who learn on their on usually have to do the entire thing from the start, which means that they would move in slower rate if they would encounter problems.
besides there is a point in life that are body stop's growing(i am talking about time periode)
and from that point you start to decay so unless you manage to gain as much power as you can under that time frame... and why you people think he wasn't a genuies himself?
you are right when you say strength doesnt pass like a golden ring, but the knowldge does...look at Maito Guy and Lee, do you think Lee would have been strong without lerning from the exprince Guy had? that's what i mean by the third learning from both previoes hokages and why he was so strong, and that's way i believe he was stronger then Daznuo, becuase ieven if Mdara trained him...Daznuo isn't a sharingan user, which means there is so much Madara could teache him(if he did that is). think about it what are the chances Danzuo had acceses to this kind of exprince when he was young?
oh and i didn't meant the third was stronger then his students at his old age(sorry if there were a misunderstanding) his power level did dropped with his age...

Originally Posted by AuroraFlash

Opening the gates is an ability just as any other. The old FRS was even worse and MS is nothing Kakashi can use at ease. Most of the techniques are dangerous and I think it's pretty nice Maito Gai can use six gates so easily. Two steps away from dying, but he recovers fast.

what is a FRS?
i am talking about base strength level, look at shark face, Guy had to open 6 gates to fight him, and remeber that every akustaki is a kage level at least...so what does it say to you? he isn't always in a kage level, he uses the gates to gain more power. what would happen if he wont be able to use them? his base level isnt near kage level is it?

[james0246]

Originally Posted by iBeast

Does Kishi write and draw up a new chapter every weeek? Or does he already have them just waiting for it to be released...cuz I think it's pretty funny if this guy actually wrote a new one every week...

Generally speaking, a mangaka is about 3-5 chapters ahead of the release schedule. So Kishimoto should be working on chapter 454-55 right about now .

[AuroraFlash]

Originally Posted by ultra_dragon

itachi a puppet? how? he never trusted madara he didn't follow madara, he done what madara said becuase it sutied him, for his needes, he did tried to kill him with the amestrue he planted in Sauke's eyes. do rememeber that he was very weak after the fight with the first, which is the time that danzuo was already a kid it probabely took awhile before he regained his power, so training danzuo wasnt high in his list...

Yes. I'm a fan of Itachi, but no matter what Itachi did, it played out perfectly for Madara.

Originally Posted by ultra_dragon

not exatly true..people who trained by someone strong can learn from their exprince which means there prgrees should be faster becuase they can avoid doing the same mistakes. people who learn on their on usually have to do the entire thing from the start, which means that they would move in slower rate if they would encounter problems.

And who tells you that Danzou was not trained by strong people? Besides, the bloodline limit / Mokuton was nothing the 3rd could learn from the 1st. The 2nd apparently was a water-type and maybe the 3rd was rather earth/fire. I wonder if he was a water-type. At least he managed to get old.

You'll be surprised at how strong Danzou is.

Originally Posted by ultra_dragon

you are right when you say strength doesnt pass like a golden ring, but the knowldge does...look at Maito Guy and Lee, do you think Lee would have been strong without lerning from the exprince Guy had?

Gai was the destined trainer to Lee, but Lee just needed a lot of effort to be able to become a qualified ninja. Maybe Lee would have been better off without learning the lotus, yet Gai was the taijutsu specialist in Konoha.

Originally Posted by ultra_dragon

that's what i mean by the third learning from both previoes hokages and why he was so strong, and that's way i believe he was stronger then Daznuo, because even if Mdara trained him...Daznuo isn't a sharingan user, which means there is so much Madara could teache him(if he did that is).

I replied before. Madara is not only a Sharingan user, but was the first to copy all the jutsu he saw on a giant battlefield. Even techniques that died on the battlefield might be part of his knowledge. Maybe Danzou learned them even without Sharingan, just by being taught how to use them...

Originally Posted by ultra_dragon

what is a FRS?

Fuuton RasenShuriken

Originally Posted by ultra_dragon

i am talking about base strength level, look at shark face, Guy had to open 6 gates to fight him, and remeber that every akustaki is a kage level at least...so what does it say to you? he isn't always in a kage level, he uses the gates to gain more power. what would happen if he wont be able to use them? his base level isnt near kage level is it?

Erm, not exactly. Gai had to open 6 gates to instantly win against Kisame. He totally overpowered and outmatched him. Without opening even a single gate, Kisame had the upper hand, but only a feint advantage towards Gai. Besides, Gai was stuck in Kisame's territory...