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View Poll Results: Mobile Suit Gundam 00 - Episode 25 Rating | |||
Perfect 10 | 242 | 59.46% | |
9 out of 10 : Excellent | 109 | 26.78% | |
8 out of 10 : Very Good | 28 | 6.88% | |
7 out of 10 : Good | 13 | 3.19% | |
6 out of 10 : Average | 7 | 1.72% | |
5 out of 10 : Below Average | 3 | 0.74% | |
4 out of 10 : Poor | 2 | 0.49% | |
3 out of 10 : Bad | 1 | 0.25% | |
2 out of 10 : Very Bad | 0 | 0% | |
1 out of 10 : Painful | 2 | 0.49% | |
Voters: 407. You may not vote on this poll |
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2008-04-05, 08:55 | Link #1021 | |
Angsty Newtype
Join Date: Aug 2007
Age: 40
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I agree : I have long wondered why the powers would have wanted to stop Celestial Being : morally, I don't know many people who don't think war is something that should never happened (and while war may be sometimes financially profitable, it is also a great toll on a country's economy budget) but not at all costs : No sovereign state likes to have things enforced on itself, especially by a power with no legitimity.
CB was indeed a threat to these countries and the power blocs had to stop them for the same reason Gilbert told Athrun that ZAFT was right to shot the Archangel and Freedom down : they couldn't afford to let such a massive and impredictable power roam around freely and let them do whatever they wanted. Quote:
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2008-04-05, 09:09 | Link #1023 | |
Logician and Romantic
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Within my mind
Age: 43
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CB was not massive, nor was it unpredictable. CB followed its declared doctrine to the letter for many months, which was the reason the trap in the desert worked. If CB was malicious and not do what it says when it suited them, the trap in China would never have worked as they would simply ignore the terrorists. For all intent and purposes, CB was more reliable than the world powers; at least they do what they say they are doing. The nations have "Legitimacy"? Does this "legitimacy" give authority to lie, cheat and rob whenever it wants? I find it outragous for people to claim CB to be untrustworthy when the world powers were lying to each other and their own people over and over again, to the plain view of the audience. If you want to talk about trust, let's make it all-encompassing; Who lied more, CB or the world powers?
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2008-04-05, 09:25 | Link #1024 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2008
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Basically the Factions have to be responsible, even when they're not acting in good faith. And you can count on them not doing anything that would cause too much trouble, especially due to their interdepency. They need eachother. Celestial Being on the other hand, has no self-interests and their doctrine is full of shit, and they don't communicate with anyone, while potentionally being able to screw over the entire planet in matter of hours with one sortie. Celestial Being is secretive. It is unstoppable. It always has the iniative. It has no country. No holdings. No people. And hardly ever says a word. They're the scum of the universe, and should have been treated with utter contempt right from the beginning. |
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2008-04-05, 09:35 | Link #1025 | |||
Angsty Newtype
Join Date: Aug 2007
Age: 40
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Any power being in an open war with one of the two others would have led to a World War : they basically couldn't get rid of each others. Quote:
Even Kinue, a simple journalist, and Eifman, a scientist, have investigated the possibility that ending wars may not have been the true purpose of Celestial Being. You would think that politicians would have even more doubts and not trust a terrorist organization : as Lockon said, "To the world, we are fine terrorists"... but a fine terrorist is still a terrorist. Would a well established and democratic nation trust terrorists to lead the World ? Quote:
The three power blocs were indeed lying to each others constantly, were in some sort of cold war when the series started, but in the end, they were more than eager to cooperate together to put an end to Celestial Being, which implies they prefered to get back to the former situation, as stressful as it may have been, than stay in the current one. Also, the power blocs knew that they had ways to retaliate if one of them attacked the other, but it was much harder to strike back against Celestial Being, not only because of their technology, but mainly because they have no country to use deterrent on or retaliate against. In the real world, many wars are prevented from happening thanks to deterrents like Nuclear Weapons (and before that, diplomats). You can send diplomats to talk with each other or use deterrents against a nation with an official and established military but not against a Terrorist organization using Strike-and-Run Guerilla-tactics. It is why war on Terrorism against organizations like Al-Quaeda is so difficult in the real world. Last edited by Vorenus; 2008-04-05 at 09:45. |
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2008-04-05, 09:47 | Link #1026 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2008
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True, and Celestial Being is even worse. With a normal Terrorist group, you can put pressure on their supporters, catch and interrogate their operatives, and potentionally attack the countries harboring them. Celestial Being on the other hand is alien in origin and protected by the powers of plot, the vacuum of space, and their operatives probably don't even know they're working for them.
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2008-04-05, 10:02 | Link #1027 | ||
Logician and Romantic
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Within my mind
Age: 43
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"Would a well established and democratic nation trust terrorists to lead the World ?" Technically a nation doesn't trust anyone at all, including itself. So trust is irrelevant here, the nations only care about if CB can be taken advantage of. And the conclusion is that they have not affected sovereignty, and the only thing that matters is they need to steal something that doesn't belong to them before the other two nations do it first. CB was entirely trustworthy. But in politics the fact that you stick to your guns is something to mock and laugh at. The world powers lied and cheated to their own people to lay a trap against CB. While CB willingly walked into annihilation because it wanted to keep its promise. You know what? I wouldn't have spent this much time arguing if the Union and AEU declared war on CB early on. It is ironic only HRL was honest with itself in which position it stands on. Had war being declared, Graham would have all the right in the world in tacking the unarmed Exia that time in the Middle East. All this declaration that CB is some sort of evil force that needed to be wiped from the face of the Earth, yet so little evidence to support it. Quote:
I don't know you at all, Wesley84. I have no means of controlling your actions, pressuring your family, catch and integrate your friends, or potentially attack your nation that harbor you. Is that justification for me to treat you as a threat? To have power over someone is not a right; it is an ABUSE. If you think nations have the right to do what they want to forces they don't like, it is the first step towards world war.
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2008-04-05, 10:44 | Link #1028 | ||||
Angsty Newtype
Join Date: Aug 2007
Age: 40
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They have legitimacy to run the World, which doesn't mean they are the best in what they are doing. Quote:
Again, the real world has already flirted with terrorists and we can't say it ended well (Bin Laden being unfortunately the best example). It is not sticking to their guns : we say the 3 power blocs rule the world, but it isn't like there isn't a billions of civilians behind them and it is not like they were running by dictators eithers : like in most democratic countries of the World, there is a lot of ministers, advisors, etc... the role of these governments is to run the country and to protect their people. Even if they lied to other countries, it was to protect their countries own interests : again, probably that every developped country in the real world has its own top secrets programs that may even violate one or two treaties... Quote:
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After all, CB is the organization having maniacs like Alejandro and Livonze in its rank... even if meant to stay true to its colours and never betray its ideals (which we have no guarantee of), you wouldn't be safe from maniacs wanting to take advantage of the organization. I'm not saying CB is evil, just that it *may* be and that this *may* is reason enough to be careful : like I said, I sympathize to their cause as an individual, but what they did so far shows no reason to trust them (terrorist methods, etc). When you see them with through the eyes of logic rather than through the eyes of ideals, you see there is a significant problem as to how much you can trust them. It is a bit like not accepting candies from stranger : candies are good, but the stranger giving them may not be... where candies are world peace and the stranger is Celestial Being (which really is a stranger they don't know anything about after all). PS: Yeah, wingdarkness inspired me with his pancakes analogies. |
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2008-04-05, 10:47 | Link #1029 | ||||||
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2008
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2008-04-05, 11:07 | Link #1030 | |
Logician and Romantic
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Within my mind
Age: 43
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They charge into a trap because they don't want terrorists getting their hands on uranium. Last I checked, numerous action heroes have done exactly that in movies without being labeled suicidal. And CB has MASSIVE self-interests. Each and everyone on board the ship genuinely want to stop wars by policing the world, because they all genuinely hate war. And they kept to that goal even after their own organisation was disintegrating. They didn't do it for money, they didn't do it for power. They did it because they believe they are right. They fight because they believe it was worth fighting for. On the other hand, the world powers throw troops at them so they can steal power for themselves. And most importantly, CB is genuine to themselves and everyone else. Something the world powers (other than HRL) was completely incapable of.
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2008-04-05, 11:32 | Link #1031 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2008
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2008-04-05, 11:39 | Link #1032 | ||
Hallelujah...
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Age: 32
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A peaceful world order? I think not. The war in Sri Lanka was there, even after 300 years. There are public bombings, shootings and kidnappings in the Middle East, just like there are now. Not so peaceful, if you ask me. And of course, if the world was so peaceful, then why the hell do Flags, Enacts, Tierens, etc exist? To fight, obviously. Celestial Being wanted to create peace by eliminating war with armed interventions, and they only fight when there is a conflict or when they are being attacked (The Thrones/Trinity siblings are an exception) Calling CB's members insane or nuts means you've either haven't watched the show, or you weren't paying attention. Nearly all of them are fairly normal with the wish to stop war and fighting. However, (some of) the other side wanted war. Ali, for example, lives to fight, and he's a bit nuts, that's about it. The members of Celestial Being were willing to die for their cause, and it takes bravery and determination, not a messed up mind. Quote:
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2008-04-05, 13:26 | Link #1034 | ||
Puppet Master
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Behind You
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Mobile suits exists so that those countries can defend their assets from rogue nations and terrorists, not to spread conflict. Quote:
Their (Celestial Being's) cause is retarded, the fact that they are willing to die for basically stupid ideals, for nothing, just reinforces that they are not normal. I think it is you who forgot to watch the show, what CB claimed, and what CB did were two different things. They claimed they wanted to end war and only attack those who start conflicts, but they indiscriminately pull the trigger w/o giving diplomacy a second chance. In Talibia they open fire on the Talibian army w/o waiting to see if the situation could be defused diplomatically, which both Talibia and the Union would have done before going to war and wasting billions of $ and destroying a country for silly reasons. Then in Moralia CB attacks a military EXERCISE which ends up crippling the country's economy and causes the deaths of quite a few civilians that would not have died as a result of the military exercise. |
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2008-04-05, 15:01 | Link #1036 | |
Utu Class Planetoid
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Reading, UK
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Casval isn't really hiding his past behind Quatro's glasses [Pretty much everyone who knew him in the OYW recognises him without trouble.] so much as trying to put having been Cha behind him. To him by that point Cha was a mask which had served his purpose in killing the adult Zabis and Quatro was a way of making it possible for him to be a Federation officer [and then an AEUG one] without his father's heritage or Cha's servioce to Zeon getting in the way. It never really seemed more than a polite fiction. If he'd meant it to be more he'd have come up with a different colour scheme for his Rick Dias before the first episode of Zeta. As for Graham, unless he's joined Celestial Being, I can't see a need for him to disguise his identity, so for the moment I'm going for hide scars as teh reason for his mask. |
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2008-04-05, 15:24 | Link #1037 | |||||||||||||
Has a life IRL
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Somewhere in the Anglo-Saxon Sphere
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The Soviet Union is an example of a nation that supported ideological movements in various parts of the world (IE the IRA). They could get away with it because they had nukes and a huge army, but you should still note that they never did a similar campaign against the US, because the US also not only had nukes but actually had the ability to deliver them (as opposed to the British arsenal, which was targeted almost exclusively at Moscow, or the French arsenal which had a severe lack of rance for land-based ICBMs, or the Russian arsenal which at various points was unlikely to even get off the launch pad in the numbers advertised). Places like Afghanistan and Palestine are the other kind. And they get stomped, hard, when attacks go out. The attacks still go out, but you'll find that most leaders prefer not to put their countries into similar conditions as Palestine. If you assume that because the Union didn't outright declare its intentions to destroy CB when it knew that CB could grind it into the dust, it didn't care, there doesn't seem much else to say on the subject. It's pretty obvious that all three powers spent the 6+ monthes racing their tech and militaries to the point where they could beat CB. Quote:
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I'm not even going to try and explain how CB's means and goals are just as much "politics" as the Powers. If you can't see that, congratulations. You have the world view of Saji Crossroads. I will say, however, that "politics" are just as much about "right and wrong" as anything else, and that CB's was dedicated to the end, not the means. Everyone in CB was shocked when Allelujah took the moral route and saved the elevator-part. Virtually all of CB's "moral" actions have been done to further their own goals, and that's the epitome of "politics." Quote:
There was no call for that. Whether you agree with him or not, attack the arguments and not the man. Quote:
Did Celestial Being's Earth Federation actually solve any of them? No, Azadistan is still seen as a powder keg after CB's interventions, the insurgencies were outright said to be biding their time until CB's disappearance, and Sri Lanka's situation that put forth the conflict never changed. CB didn't "fixed" arguments not by resolving the differences and situations that started them, but by blowing up both sides. [QUOTE] Quote:
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CB is full of nuts. They're more like misfits, really. The most normal of them are the bridge-crew, who get killed off. Quote:
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No, it does not "take" bravery and determination to die for a cause. Beer or drugs is a ancient tradition for pushing people into the field of battle. An idealogue can be willing to die for a cause. Mental health is rarely a factor, because being insane and being dedicated aren't mutually exclusive, nor are bravery and willingness to die. More than one suicide bomber across history has been some child with little concept of death, or a soul with down syndrome or other mental incapacitation who got put into a suicide vest with no choice in the matter. Quote:
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2008-04-05, 16:32 | Link #1038 | ||||
Ancient Member
Join Date: Apr 2002
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I guess he WAS supposed to have an effed up face in the TV series, but Fukuda being the nice guy he was probably wanted to show his face so people would recognize Rey in GSD... Quote:
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2008-04-05, 19:22 | Link #1039 | |
The Dark Knight
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: From the deepest abyss in the world, where you think?
Age: 38
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