[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 6 Dawn of the golden witch

[Heatth]

Originally Posted by Kylon99

If you need links to the Author Theory, here: http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...postcount=3188 (It's still a bit of a mess, I should give a shorter summary... yah.)

I've said before, but I can not open the links in the post. 404. Is it just me?

Originally Posted by Metaler

Krauss probably ordered the servants not to let anyone inside, or something. '-'

Sure. But lets say they decided that 'every victim' would go alone to the place it want to 'die'. For that, Kyrie might go to some servant, lets say Goda, since he is not very intelligent, and ask for the master key.

Gohda wouldn't suspect Kyrie had some ulterior motive. From his own point of view, the only forbidden rooms are locked by something other the the simple lock (like Kinzo study, or where Krauss hides the gold bar). As an Ushiromya Family servant he couldn't deny a request from Kyrie, so he would just handle her the master key. Krauss would be pissed afterward, but Kyrie got what her want.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by Heatth

I've said before, but I can not open the links in the post. 404. Is it just me?.

It's redirecting to a yahoo search for me.

[LyricalAura]

Originally Posted by Heatth

I've said before, but I can not open the links in the post. 404. Is it just me?

All of the links have worked fine for me.

[luckyssol]

Use these links:
LINK 1
LINK 2

Personally, I like this theory very much. I think the core of the theory is very correct and I only disagree with some of the specifics.

[Metaler]

Originally Posted by Heatth

Sure. But lets say they decided that 'every victim' would go alone to the place it want to 'die'. For that, Kyrie might go to some servant, lets say Goda, since he is not very intelligent, and ask for the master key.

Gohda wouldn't suspect Kyrie had some ulterior motive. From his own point of view, the only forbidden rooms are locked by something other the the simple lock (like Kinzo study, or where Krauss hides the gold bar). As an Ushiromya Family servant he couldn't deny a request from Kyrie, so he would just handle her the master key. Krauss would be pissed afterward, but Kyrie got what her want.

I don't think a servant a would simply lend the master key to someone who doesn't live on Rokkenjima. Not even Gohda, who doesn't have the one-winged eagle. Lending the master key to someone might as well cost his job, something which he doesn't want, obviously.

[Kylon99]

Ohhh.. d'oh. Silly me, I copy and pasted the text of the link and not the actual link.

Arghhh.
EDIT: I had copy and pasted the shortened URL from the message, where they insert "..." into the text of the message. 8) I also fixed the original message now.

Let me try again:

The original post, a bit of a rambling one though, sorry:
http://forums.animesuki.com/showthre...10#post2857510

That message kinda got submerged a bit until the discussion came up again:
http://forums.animesuki.com/showthre...97#post2971597

And that went on for a page until Renall summed it up for me pretty well, and added some extra thoughts:
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...postcount=6980

[winter 923]

how many where involved in this? Hideyoshi is involved that is for sure so i do not see why the others should not be involved. How else would shkannon escape from the room if Hideyoshi was not involved. So all she had to do was saying "Kraus-san your room got an telefon and acclimatisation right? Mind if i borrow your Room." "Sure here is the key but do not look under the bed." just because it was locked does not mean that she did not have the key for it. After she talked with Jessica about love she unlocks the door, chains it and lies down. It's not like that his door key could open his Desk or whereever he keeps things.
Also, a Husband or their Children not involved? that would be more cruel and sick to them then a prank to an annoying Guest that you only met today.

[Verg Avesta]

Something that might be of interest that I found on my re-read of episode 6. While George is talking with Shannon, and especially the scene where he confesses the way he used to see Battler and Jessica, there are some strange sentences he says. First of all, not always, but at certain points, he uses plural. For example:

"......You guys were getting along with Battler-kun and Jessica-chan far better than with me, ...."

He even says that it was not only Shannon, but "You two" who opened his eyes to his conceit. That might be only referring to Battler, but it's that line above that keeps bugging me. Sure, it seems like it might refer to other servant-kids, but.....were there any other servant-kids?

[Miss Mystery]

My thoughts on EP6:

After reading this episode, my impression of Shannon COMPLETELY changed. I had no idea that she'd be this ruthless.

The Shkanon is also impossible to ignore for any longer - if it were a fake theory, most likely Ryukishi would have addressed it earlier on in the question arcs. (Just like with the small bombs theory.) Of course, he could just be making a false lead in that respect as well. I'm just saying, there's far too much evidence for it.

Now time to read what others had to say about this EP. ^_^

[Heatth]

Thank-you Kylon and Ssol who reposted the links, could open it finely now.

That Author Theory is very interesting. Specially considering Renall's thought of it. However, I believe I've found a some flaws on it premise.

If I understood correctly, you, Kylon99, are saying that the story can be divided between the 1998 world (what really happened) and the world of Rokkenjima and Meta!World (message bottles and forgeries) right?

The first thing we have to consider, are these stories the same we read? With all the meta scenes. Ep6 seem to imply 'yes'. However, I find it very unlikely.

First, from the way these bottles were discussed, it should have a mention of Battler being the main character. I don't remember any, but of course, I may be wrong.

Second, Ep4. Some meta scenes in Ep4, particularly ANGE-Beatrice are closely tied to the 'real world events' of 1998. How would Hachijo Tohya know about it? Is she writing it too? That this also can't be assumed as "real". This is particularly true about Sakutarou, who is only introduced in Maria's diary (who only Ange should know about).

Third, the very first time we know about the message bottle we get to see a bit of it. Of course, that 'bit' never really appear in any game we have seem so far, which is an indication that they are not perfect reproduction of the message bottles. More important, the message bottles, as well as the forgeries, are supposed to be written by 'Ushiromiya Maria'. Yet, pretty much all of it, including the meta scenes, are written from Battlers perspective. OF course, it make sense for Beatrice to make Battler the main character, however, even if dubious, for the people of the world of 1998, it at last seem to be Maria, or someone pretending to be Maria, who wrote the tale. From what is presented to us, it is hard anyone would believe Maria is the true writer.

Fourth, more important, Ange narration in Ep6. We she first appear, she mention not only her loss of memories but also knowledge of what would happen to her afterward. Latter, she ask Featherine to stop pretending and we see Hachijo becoming a witch. Of course, this also may have been written by Hachijo, however, then how she knows what Ange would do next? How she knows about Juuza? Why Ange would need to ask if Featherine is supposed to be Hachijo if this has been made already obvious in that scene? Even if it was, somehow, something Hachijo wrote, there is also the very end. Ange mention again he had no memory of that day, implying the Ange of the end is the same, or had similar thoughts, of the Ange of the beginning (who knew about the meta world and went read to Featherine).

Due to these 4 points, I don't believe there is a clear division about the "Real World (1998)" and the "Fictional World (every thing else)". For this to work, we have to accept the stories of the message bottler and the forgeries are very different, even if similar (since the story is the same), from the ones we read.

Anyway, I have said it before, but I believe that just assuming everything is fake sucks. I know you can still find the truth, but that is not the (single) point. Assuming everything is fake destroy the opportunity to enjoy the game as a 'romance', instead as a 'mystery' for me. I read Umineko as both a puzze game (mystery) and as a interesting fictional tale with good characters(romance),

A last point about Knox, Kylon (since you briefly mention it in your theory).

I've said before, but the fact the stories follow Knox don't mean they are not "real". Take the books Knox himself wrote, for example. I haven't read any, but I assume they did follow Knox (well, duh) and they were presented as "real". Of course, Umineko use Knox in a different way. Almost as a kind of magic. However, Ep6 also mentioned that in one point, remember? Erika can use her 'Detective Authority' not because this is a power granted to her by the Game Master, but because it is something her can do herself. In Ep6, even without the 'Detective Authority' she uses many of the privileges, because it is something Piece!Erika can do using her argumentation skills. Heck, she even, in a way, got all the clues to solve the mystery. Had her payed attention in the romance bits Battler showed her she could have find an answer for the 2 last Closed Rooms (and for the 17 persons riddle).

Concluding, following Knox and being "real" is not mutually exclusive. The same way as being fiction and being "real" are also not mutually exclusive (in a multi-worlds context).

[Renall]

Actually, there's no reason to explicitly believe that every part of 1998 that we see is a "real world" depiction of what happens in 1998-Prime, per the Author Theory. However, it is probable that the events are substantially similar. The main point is that the disaster happens, only Eva survives, Ange is raised by Eva, and she sets out to do something in 1998 which results in her apparent death (at least in the public eye).

Any actual depiction of these events may be a fictionalized account itself.

[June 1983]

Re: Who was in on the prank and who wasn't -- my first reaction was "they had to be all in on it, and their reactions were all faked."

However, one thing only has given me pause with this (and I'm sure others have noticed this too, I haven't gotten through this whole thread yet). And that's something Rudolf says after they've returned to the guest house, and he, Krauss, Hideyoshi, and Erika are in the sitting room (or whatever it's called). He says Now I'll never get to tell them ... or something along those lines. And it's very, very clear here to the reader that he's talking about the secret he wanted to speak to Kyrie and Battler about after the family conference (almost certainly on the topic of Battler's parentage). There's no reason he would mention something like this if he was just faking it, none at all. This isn't the sort of thing he would mention in front of others unless he really was in shock.

edit: Actually, I'm going to post my tiny additions to the Author Theory in the Spoilers + Speculation thread, I think that's probably where I should have posted it. XD

[Heatth]

Originally Posted by Renall

Actually, there's no reason to explicitly believe that every part of 1998 that we see is a "real world" depiction of what happens in 1998-Prime, per the Author Theory. However, it is probable that the events are substantially similar. The main point is that the disaster happens, only Eva survives, Ange is raised by Eva, and she sets out to do something in 1998 which results in her apparent death (at least in the public eye).

I see. But then, what we should take for granted? Only the facts itself, without any narration? For exemple, can we still believe that Ange and her bodyguard went to Rokkenjima and she (probably) died there?

Speaking on that, can we believe in the ending scroll of Ep1? Not about the supernatural stuff, but about the reaction of the world about the incident. I noticed that, even there, there at no point it say there were no survivors and at no point it said it was actually a mass murder (just that people believe on it after reading the notebook).

I so, we can say, for example, that the body of the children were not found. But Maria's jaw was. It also mention the incident was 'gruesome' (which I suppose it would be, if it was an explosion).

Originally Posted by Renall

Any actual depiction of these events may be a fictionalized account itself.

Do you realise this kind of discussion only make real sense if we were talking about real events?

Originally Posted by June 1983

Re: Who was in on the prank and who wasn't -- my first reaction was "they had to be all in on it, and their reactions were all faked."

However, one thing only has given me pause with this (and I'm sure others have noticed this too, I haven't gotten through this whole thread yet). And that's something Rudolf says after they've returned to the guest house, and he, Krauss, Hideyoshi, and Erika are in the sitting room (or whatever it's called). He says Now I'll never get to tell them ... or something along those lines. And it's very, very clear here to the reader that he's talking about the secret he wanted to speak to Kyrie and Battler about after the family conference (almost certainly on the topic of Battler's parentage). There's no reason he would mention something like this if he was just faking it, none at all. This isn't the sort of thing he would mention in front of others unless he really was in shock.

edit: Actually, I'm going to post my tiny additions to the Author Theory in the Spoilers + Speculation thread, I think that's probably where I should have posted it. XD

This was said in front of Erika? Anyway, Rudolf not knowing would raise other questions as well. Why wouldn't Battler and Kyrie explain that to him? Also, if he did not know, why would he be ok with Kanon not being in the room? Even if you don't believe in Shkannon (something I find hard at that point), Rudolf (and Krauss) allowed Kanon to not be there. With which reason would they do that if they did not know about the prank?

Why the Author Theory should be posted in the spoiler thread?

[June 1983]

Originally Posted by Heatth

This was said in front of Erika? Anyway, Rudolf not knowing would raise other questions as well. Why wouldn't Battler and Kyrie explain that to him? Also, if he did not know, why would he be ok with Kanon not being in the room? Even if you don't believe in Shkannon (something I find hard at that point), Rudolf (and Krauss) allowed Kanon to not be there. With which reason would they do that if they did not know about the prank?

Yes, I just went back and checked, and it's said during the scene that Rudolf, Krauss, Hideyoshi, and Erika are discussing what should be done inside the guest house.

Here's the actual scene and what he says:



This scene comes directly after Krauss asks him to think of Ange back home. Erika suggests Krauss go up to the cousins' room right after Rudolf says this. (It's also interesting that we aren't given Rudolf's sprite for this scene, but instead an atmosphere shot, but that might not mean anything at all.)

[MeoTwister5]

6 months. I've been on Umineko hiatus for 6 months after I had given up on playing the game in Japanese after realizing the sheer amount of complexities R07 introduced constricted me and my meager Japanese skills. After learning that WH finished the patch earlier than expected, I guess I can come back and finally finish where I left off.

So yeah, I'm back.

Just have to say that while I hate that bitch Erika the moment she first arrived in Ep5, what she just did to Battler in their first real fight over the first bodies was simply brilliant. She's a bitch, BUT THAT WAS WELL FUCKING PLAYED.

[Heatth]

Originally Posted by June 1983

Yes, I just went back and checked, and it's said during the scene that Rudolf, Krauss, Hideyoshi, and Erika are discussing what should be done inside the guest house.

Here's the actual scene and what he says:

This scene comes directly after Krauss asks him to think of Ange back home. Erika suggests Krauss go up to the cousins' room right after Rudolf says this. (It's also interesting that we aren't given Rudolf's sprite for this scene, but instead an atmosphere shot, but that might not mean anything at all.)

I remember that line. I was just not sure if it was said in front of Erika. Erika is the closest thing we have of an 'objective viewing' for this episode, so if it wasn't near to her I would say it was just the way Meta!Battler chose to show to Erika and Bern.

So, maybe, uh, Rudolf is just that good as an actor? Don't seem quite well, as you said. However, if he is not inside the prank, then it is weird he allow Kanon outside the Cousin Room.

Well, if you believe in Shkannon the solution is not that hard: Rudolf knew Kanon don't really exist. Of course, so did Krauss and everyone else in the Cousin Room. They don't even need to know beforehand, they might be just told that and convinced to not tell Erika about it. This might be the meaning of Kanon's 'death'. After that day, he couldn't exist anymore because Krauss and Jessica already know it is actually Shannon.

[Jan-Poo]

welcome back Meotwister5.


Anyway it's not just Rudolf, everyone seems to act in a way that is way beyond what you would expect them to act according to their characters.

[MeoTwister5]

I stopped exactly before Erika entered piece Battler's murder room 6 months ago. How far am I to the end?

I still have a lot of ground to cover. I'm surprised that I managed to get almost 70% of my translations correct when I actually played it in English. I guess I'm competent enough to do it for Ep7.

[Heatth]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Anyway it's not just Rudolf, everyone seems to act in a way that is way beyond what you would expect them to act according to their characters.

You keep repeating it by I still fail to see that. People seem to act perfectly in character in that particular scene, actually. My problem is the opposite, Rudolf is acting too much in character, to the point it is hard to see it as acting. It is not weird for Rudolf act this way after having the wife and son dead. What is weird is he act that way know they are not dead.

The most 'out of character' I could see in that particular scene was Krauss being too willing to agree with every thing a middle schooler say. But, anyway, Krauss personality was aways inconstant, he seems very secure of himself for most part, but Episode 5 showed how he can be insecure and just let other guide him. Also, it is not like Erika was saying anything absurd. All she said was 'lets stay calm and lock ourselves'. Pretty reasonable for their situation.

PP:
Thinking now, I believe the character feel more unreal because we don't have as much narration for the Game Board as in the previous Episodes.

Originally Posted by MeoTwister5

I stopped exactly before Erika entered piece Battler's murder room 6 months ago. How far am I to the end?

That is pretty near to the end, actually. Just four more chapters and the Tea Parties. The Tea Party this time is also not that big.

[Jan-Poo]

You misunderstood me Heatth.

I'm assuming that Rudolf and the other couldn't really fall for such a fake mass murder. It's hard to imagine how they could have been tricked. You don't even need to be a doctor to notice there's still pulse, or that someone is still breathing.

So I can only explain it with Rudolf Hideyoshi and Krauss playing an act.

But it's out of character for Rudolf, Hideyoshi and Krauss to be capable of acting to that extent. Not it's not actually a matter being able to, is a matter of willing to.

Would really Krauss accept to make a fool of himself by playing the part of the devastated husband? Would Hideyoshi really start crying in front of everyone?

This is what I meant.